Legalities: SBR Conversion kits for Pistols

[ambishooter]

RONI, HERA, FAB Defense are the main manufacturers of this SBR kits for Glocks, and recently expanded to more pistols as to SIG and other popular brands. We had an instance last week, shooting at our Club range where a club executive questioned the legality of this conversion. He did not stop us from shooting for we showed him that the pistol is non-modified. All original .40 cal Glock, no mods done. He cited a supposedly RCMP ruling on a Broomhandle. We were told that a Broomhandle is classified as a pistol. But once a stock is installed, it is now classified by RCMP as a restricted rifle. He did not argue further, he just wanted a clarification from our club executives and or CFO/RCMP before any of the shooters gets into trouble with the law.

 

[Blastattack]

Though I cannot explain why, I can assure you there is nothing illegal about installing a stock kit on a pistol. However, my understanding is a Handgun is always a Handgun, and thus is always restricted. As for the Broom handle carbines, provided it a is a real carbine and is of sufficient lengths, there is no reason why it would be restricted. However, as regular stock-able pistol will always be restricted. We do not have US style SBR classifcations, only Non-Restricted, Retsricted and Prohib. As long as you do not modify the firearm in such a way that it changes classification (barrel length, overall length) you are free and clear.

Real and very rare broomhandle carbines

Solid Stock;

Takedown;

Both actions are purpose built rifle actions, and not simply a pistol frame with a stock bolted to it.

 

[MTLGUN]

Interesting question Ambi. You've kinda stumbled upon a bit of a grey area.

The issue would be if in attaching a stock you go from restricted handgun with 10 round cap to a restricted rifle with 5 round cap. And unlike the LAR or Marlin Camp Carbine this is a conversion kit not a factory gun.

Sorry, I haven't had enough coffee yet to help more than this but I'll check back later.

 

[tiriaq]

Interesting question Ambi. You've kinda stumbled upon a bit of a grey area.

The issue would be if in attaching a stock you go from restricted handgun with 10 round cap to a restricted rifle with 5 round cap. And unlike the LAR or Marlin Camp Carbine this is a conversion kit not a factory gun.

Sorry, I haven't had enough coffee yet to help more than this but I'll check back later.

As far as magazine capacity goes, a magazine designed and manufactured for a handgun is limited to 10 rounds; one for a semi auto centerfire rifle, 5 rounds.
I would suggest that there is no RCMP interpretation that a pistol with an added stock becomes a rifle.
A pistol cannot be reclassified as a rifle; if it could be so reclassified, then a non-restricted length barrel could be installed, and the thing deregistered.
XP100 is the classic example.

 

[elektrobug]

Interesting question Ambi. You've kinda stumbled upon a bit of a grey area.

The issue would be if in attaching a stock you go from restricted handgun with 10 round cap to a restricted rifle with 5 round cap. And unlike the LAR or Marlin Camp Carbine this is a conversion kit not a factory gun.

Sorry, I haven't had enough coffee yet to help more than this but I'll check back later.

The magazine capacity would not be affected as the magazines are classified based on what firearm they were made for, so a Glock magazine is still 10 rounds no matter where you plug it, restricted rifle of pistol.

The whole SBR, short barrel rifle is a USA designation. In USA this conversion is illegal without extra registration and paying $200 for a "stamp" from BATF to license it like class 3 items such as machine guns and supressors. Perhaps the club executive is confused between Canada and USA.

Also in Canada there is no practical difference between restricted pistol and restricted rifle, except the mag issue which was addressed above.

 

[Blastattack]

Keep in mind that in Canada this is a pistol/handgun;

Unless you replace the frame and barrel with a non-restricted design, it will always be a pistol or handgun, regardless of what is attached to it. The Ruger MK pistols are different however. My understanding is that the upper receiver, and not the frame itself is the pistol/handgun. Conceivably a completely new upper receiver manufactured with a stock and longer barrel could be dropped right onto an MK frame and the firearm be deemed NR. This is a grey area, but no different than switching uppers on a Swiss arms, as the upper receiver is the legally defined firearm in that situation.

 

[Suputin]

RONI, HERA, FAB Defense are the main manufacturers of this SBR kits for Glocks, and recently expanded to more pistols as to SIG and other popular brands. We had an instance last week, shooting at our Club range where a club executive questioned the legality of this conversion. He did not stop us from shooting for we showed him that the pistol is non-modified. All original .40 cal Glock, no mods done. He cited a supposedly RCMP ruling on a Broomhandle. We were told that a Broomhandle is classified as a pistol. But once a stock is installed, it is now classified by RCMP as a restricted rifle. He did not argue further, he just wanted a clarification from our club executives and or CFO/RCMP before any of the shooters gets into trouble with the law.

The more pressing question should be to the suitability of a member of the club executive who clearly has no clue about the laws of this country.

First: The term SBR has ZERO status in Canada. That is a wholly American issue.

Second: A handgun is restricted in Canada and it doesn't matter one bit what you put on it or attach to it or put it in, it doesn't change the fact that it is a restricted firearm. Short of altering the barrel length there is nothing you can do to a handgun that will change its classification.

Third: There is no such thing as a "restricted rifle" in Canada. Firearms are either non-restricted, restricted or prohibited. There are no other choices. A rifle that is restricted is classed and treated the same as a handgun .... which is also restricted. If a Broomhandle is restricted but then converted to a carbine that is still restricted then nothing has changed has it?

You should go to the executive and ask why someone so ignorant of the laws of the country is serving on their executive and going about bothering shooters at the range. If he isn't a cop then he should mind his own damn business. We have enough bureaucrats forcing idiot laws down our throats, we don't need fellow shooters helping them out.

The primary problem with dumb people is they can't keep their mouth shut ... it is as if they feel compelled to prove to the rest of us just how dumb they are.

Interesting question Ambi. You've kinda stumbled upon a bit of a grey area.

The issue would be if in attaching a stock you go from restricted handgun with 10 round cap to a restricted rifle with 5 round cap. And unlike the LAR or Marlin Camp Carbine this is a conversion kit not a factory gun.

There is nothing grey about it. The magazine capacity is limited by the intended use of the magazine. It is perfectly legal to use a 10 round glock mag in a pistol caliber carbine that is designed for that magazine. There are a number of examples of this in the country, the Sub2000 being the most obvious.

And jamming a Glock into a Roni chassis does not change it from a handgun to a carbine in the law. It is still a handgun, just in a chassis system.

 

[Blastattack]

Also in Canada there is no practical difference between restricted pistol and restricted rifle, except the mag issue which was addressed above.

Until you try to convert either to Non-restricted status. Anybody can convert a Restricted length rifle to non-restricted by putting on a new 18.5" barrel. However, if the gun is built off a receiver or frame designated as a handgun or pistol, the firearm remains restricted regardless. The Rossi Circuit Judge supports this: 18.5" Barrel, over 26" OAL, but restricted because it is built on a standard revolver frame.

The more pressing question should be to the suitability of a member of the club executive who clearly has no clue about the laws of this country.

First: The term SBR has ZERO status in Canada. That is a wholly American issue.

Second: A handgun is restricted in Canada and it doesn't matter one bit what you put on it or attach to it or put it in, it doesn't change the fact that it is a restricted firearm. Short of altering the barrel length there is nothing you can do to a handgun that will change its classification.

Third: There is no such thing as a "restricted rifle" in Canada. Firearms are either non-restricted, restricted or prohibited. There are no other choices. A rifle that is restricted is classed and treated the same as a handgun .... which is also restricted. If a Broomhandle is restricted but then converted to a carbine that is still restricted then nothing has changed has it?

You should go to the executive and ask why someone so ignorant of the laws of the country is serving on their executive and going about bothering shooters at the range. If he isn't a cop then he should mind his own damn business. We have enough bureaucrats forcing idiot laws down our throats, we don't need fellow shooters helping them out.

The primary problem with dumb people is they can't keep their mouth shut ... it is as if they feel compelled to prove to the rest of us just how dumb they are.




There is nothing grey about it. The magazine capacity is limited by the intended use of the magazine. It is perfectly legal to use a 10 round glock mag in a pistol caliber carbine that is designed for that magazine. There are a number of examples of this in the country, the Sub2000 being the most obvious.

And jamming a Glock into a Roni chassis does not change it from a handgun to a carbine in the law. It is still a handgun, just in a chassis system.

Is there evidence to support either of the underlined claims? The M1 carbine and ACR are both restricted firearms, however a new barrel makes them non-restricted. The Circuit judge is a Carbine Rifle that meets all the requirements to be Non-restricted, but is built off a revolver frame in is restricted. You can't say that Canadian firearms law only recognizes Non-Restricted, Restricted and Prohibited, because there are clearly subsets within the categories that define what a firearm is and what makes it fall into certain categories.

A pistol or handgun is always a pistol or handgun. A rifle can be either. You can also build non-restricted rifles off of the Remington XP100, because it is a rifle masquerading as a pistol/handgun.

 

[elektrobug]

Until you try to convert either to Non-restricted status.

No one is converting anything and the OP is asking about something else, lets not get sidelined and go off topic. And a pistol is a pistol as per RCMP, not possible to change it to rifle.

 

[enefgee]

The more pressing question should be to the suitability of a member of the club executive who clearly has no clue about the laws of this country.

First: The term SBR has ZERO status in Canada. That is a wholly American issue.

Second: A handgun is restricted in Canada and it doesn't matter one bit what you put on it or attach to it or put it in, it doesn't change the fact that it is a restricted firearm. Short of altering the barrel length there is nothing you can do to a handgun that will change its classification.

Third: There is no such thing as a "restricted rifle" in Canada. Firearms are either non-restricted, restricted or prohibited. There are no other choices. A rifle that is restricted is classed and treated the same as a handgun .... which is also restricted. If a Broomhandle is restricted but then converted to a carbine that is still restricted then nothing has changed has it?

You should go to the executive and ask why someone so ignorant of the laws of the country is serving on their executive and going about bothering shooters at the range. If he isn't a cop then he should mind his own damn business. We have enough bureaucrats forcing idiot laws down our throats, we don't need fellow shooters helping them out.

The primary problem with dumb people is they can't keep their mouth shut ... it is as if they feel compelled to prove to the rest of us just how dumb they are.




There is nothing grey about it. The magazine capacity is limited by the intended use of the magazine. It is perfectly legal to use a 10 round glock mag in a pistol caliber carbine that is designed for that magazine. There are a number of examples of this in the country, the Sub2000 being the most obvious.

And jamming a Glock into a Roni chassis does not change it from a handgun to a carbine in the law. It is still a handgun, just in a chassis system.

Thanks man, you saved me a whole lot of typing. Where does this shizzle come from.

 

[Blastattack]

No one is converting anything and the OP is asking about something else, lets not get sidelined and go off topic. And a pistol is a pistol as per RCMP, not possible to change it to rifle.

And I agree with you entirely. Bolting thingies on will not, in itself, change the classification of a firearm. Bolting thingies may prevent the firearm from moving down the list (increasingly restricted) but will never move a firearm up the list towards non-restricted. Or so my understanding goes.

 

[Paladin308]

According to the RCMP if it was ever a handgun it's always a handgun, no matter how much it looks like a rifle. The only way you'll ever be able to change the classification of a handgun is to prohib status by shortening the barrel or converting to full-auto, that or repealing the whole stupid firearms act.

 

[Blastattack]

Here we go;

PART III
FIREARMS AND OTHER WEAPONS

Interpretation;

84. (1) In this Part,

“handgun”
« arme de poing »
“handgun” means a firearm that is designed, altered or intended to be aimed and fired by the action of one hand, whether or not it has been redesigned or subsequently altered to be aimed and fired by the action of both hands;


“restricted firearm”
« arme à feu à autorisation restreinte »
“restricted firearm” means

(a) a handgun that is not a prohibited firearm,
(b) a firearm that
(i) is not a prohibited firearm,
(ii) has a barrel less than 470 mm in length, and
(iii) is capable of discharging centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic manner,
(c) a firearm that is designed or adapted to be fired when reduced to a length of less than 660 mm by folding, telescoping or otherwise, or
(d) a firearm of any other kind that is prescribed to be a restricted firearm;


“prohibited firearm”
« arme à feu prohibée »
“prohibited firearm” means

(a) a handgun that
(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or
(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,
but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,
(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or
(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,
(c) an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or
(d) any firearm that is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm;

A handgun is a handgun and will ways be handgun, thus it will always be either restricted or prohibited. A rifle or shotgun is simply a firearm, and falls into classes based on it's features. Altering the features can alter the class of the firearm, as such a non-handgun can move freely towards greater or lesser restriction depending on modifications done to it. RCMP policy would show that firearms cannot move back up the list once they have been moved down, ie. you cannot reclassify a Non-Restricted into Restricted, and then back to Non-Restricted. This is completely separate from "named firearms", falling into restricted or prohibited status, regardless of features.

 

[ambishooter]

Thank you for your opinions. I am heading to the club tonight to discuss this issue further with the rest of our club executives. Grey area or not, we do not want any of our guys in trouble. In case of a spot check and questioned by cops, we can have an answer based on the legality of this issue. I will have more details in the coming days.

 

[elektrobug]

No grey area here! Its black and white just like this text. Letter of the Canadian law is pistol is always pistol. No such definition in Canadian law as "SBR = Short Barrel Rifle" as thats is a USA definition. Also no practical difference in Canadian law from restricted pistol and restricted rifle! No such thing as SBR in Canada, hence no illegality possible. PERIOD. FULL STOP. =)

 

[Eric_911]

Third: There is no such thing as a "restricted rifle" in Canada.

Of course there is such thing as a distinction, and a very important distinction, between what is a restricted rife, a restricted pistol, and a firearm restricted by OIC. "Restricted" is not just one simple category.

Here are the truths

1) once a pistol, always a pistol. A pistol receiver will always be classed as a pistol, regardless of any mods done to barrel length, stocks, or OAL. Classification cannot be downgraded, unless you're rebarrelling a prohib pistol to make it restricted pistol.

2) items prescribed as restricted by name, most notably the AR15, are restricted regardless of whether the receiver is a pistol or rifle receiver. Regardless of OAL, bbl length, type of stock, or "shoulder thingy's that go up"

3) the term "restricted rifle" becomes important when we consider oddball "rifles" such as the B&T TP-9.... The FAMAE SAF... Etc.

These guns resemble pistols, but are classified as restricted rifles because they are shoulder fired, compact rifles. Akin to the ACR, the CX4, some of the shorty XCR's....

These Restricted rifles can be rebarrelled by the owners to longer 18.5" barrels, and the classifications downgraded to non-restricted as desired.

 

[silen]

Though I cannot explain why, I can assure you there is nothing illegal about installing a stock kit on a pistol. However, my understanding is a Handgun is always a Handgun, and thus is always restricted. As for the Broom handle carbines, provided it a is a real carbine and is of sufficient lengths, there is no reason why it would be restricted. However, as regular stock-able pistol will always be restricted. We do not have US style SBR classifcations, only Non-Restricted, Retsricted and Prohib. As long as you do not modify the firearm in such a way that it changes classification (barrel length, overall length) you are free and clear.

Real and very rare broomhandle carbines

Solid Stock;

Takedown;

Both actions are purpose built rifle actions, and not simply a pistol frame with a stock bolted to it.

A broomhandle or any pistol based action will always remain restricted as it can be returned to a pistol with a little effort...
Case in point rossi circuit judge meets all requirements to be a non restricted (I believe it would be quite popular too if it actually were) yet it's restricted because it is based on a revolver...ridiculous yes..but this comes directly from advice of the cfo on the phone
(I had the chance to buy a carbine broomhandle :/, it may have been a bubba job..never looked that far into it after the phonecall... but nonetheless I needed the info so I inquired )

 

[tiriaq]

An original Mauser carbine is not a pistol with a buttstock tacked on. It is a purpose built carbine - just like the Browning .22 carbine. Don't know if any were made with barrels long enough to qualify for non-restricted status though.

 

[transporteRR]

Shot my P226 with Hera kit, wickedddddd.
The club guy is power tripping like most do

 

[loki_81]

RONI, HERA, FAB Defense are the main manufacturers of this SBR kits for Glocks, and recently expanded to more pistols as to SIG and other popular brands. We had an instance last week, shooting at our Club range where a club executive questioned the legality of this conversion. He did not stop us from shooting for we showed him that the pistol is non-modified. All original .40 cal Glock, no mods done. He cited a supposedly RCMP ruling on a Broomhandle. We were told that a Broomhandle is classified as a pistol. But once a stock is installed, it is now classified by RCMP as a restricted rifle. He did not argue further, he just wanted a clarification from our club executives and or CFO/RCMP before any of the shooters gets into trouble with the law.

So what's his point even if he were correct (which he's not)? That somehow being in a carbine kit that it's now double restricted? I'm guessing it was going to be about mag limits, which he would be wrong about again as the mags are purpose built pistol mags that would be legal to use in a rifle even if this somehow changed the status (from restricted, to restricted ).

Bring this up with the club president (or whatever the head exec is called in your club) and inform them that the executives need further education, or propose a vote at the next club meeting to have this one mentioned in the OP replaced.

For clarity, this is classified a pistol;

If you were to put a stock on it and change it into this configuration, it's still a pistol;

Finally if you were to have a custom made XCR micro gas length 18.6" barrel assembled and installed on the above examples, they're still a pistol. By Canadian law if it's registered a pistol, it's always a pistol.

His example of a Broomhandle is also incorrect. This is a restricted red 9 C-96;

With it's shoulder stock on, it's still a restricted red 9 C-96 (aka a pistol);

This too is a pistol, put the shoulder stock on it and it's still a pistol;

There is no example of which that I'm aware of that changes this. In the case of him quoting the C-96 the carbine is a purpose built carbine, where as the pistol and shoulder stock is a pistol with an attachable piece of wood.