Legalities vs. Ethics
- Thread starter Slugo
- Start date
Seeing how my hunting season lasts like two weeks in the fall, due to the fact that I am a young (read: mostly broke with a mortgage) guy, I tend to look at hunting in the same way I look at fishing.
I am there to first and foremost enjoy my time away from the city/office/traffic/daily routine.
Secondly I come to the woods with the hope of getting something.
Since I drive to my hunting spot/stand on a forest road (legal to hunt road, etc.), that happens to be a few km's away from base camp, you can bet that I run into a few deer or bear on the way.
Will I pass up on a deer while I am on my way to my still hunting spot? Ummm... no. I mean why would I? Does a deer shot on a logging road taste any worse then one shot from a blind/stand/stalk hunt? I don't think so.
In my opinion I take any opportunity to get some meat in the freezer. The whole fair-chase metality is great but I will never pass up on a good sized deer, just because i came across it while in the drivers seat.
I am there to first and foremost enjoy my time away from the city/office/traffic/daily routine.
Secondly I come to the woods with the hope of getting something.
Since I drive to my hunting spot/stand on a forest road (legal to hunt road, etc.), that happens to be a few km's away from base camp, you can bet that I run into a few deer or bear on the way.
Will I pass up on a deer while I am on my way to my still hunting spot? Ummm... no. I mean why would I? Does a deer shot on a logging road taste any worse then one shot from a blind/stand/stalk hunt? I don't think so.
In my opinion I take any opportunity to get some meat in the freezer. The whole fair-chase metality is great but I will never pass up on a good sized deer, just because i came across it while in the drivers seat.
Salty said:The most ethical way to hunt IMO is (1)find aplace with enough of your quarry so that if you are successfull it will not do harm to the population as a whole, and (2) Kill it as quickly and effectively as possible.
Whether its a shot off of the edge of a bush road at a deer 50 yards away or from a mountain top miles from any road at a deer 300 yards away makes no "ethical" difference to me as long as you have an extremely high chance of making a quick clean kill.
Personally, I prefer to hunt on foot. But I certainly look for game from the truck travelling to and from and if I see the right animal while driving in a legal hunting area, I have no problem in getting out of the truck and harvesting it
Nothing wrong with this post. I agree
Question
so far this discussion has been about things that are legal but unethical. How about something that is illegal, does that automatically make it unethical as well.
Hunting at night is very natural, and many animals do it, yet it is illegal. If someone shoots a bear at night it is illegal, but is it unethical???
This is just an example, as it is illegal due to safety concerns
so far this discussion has been about things that are legal but unethical. How about something that is illegal, does that automatically make it unethical as well.
Hunting at night is very natural, and many animals do it, yet it is illegal. If someone shoots a bear at night it is illegal, but is it unethical???
This is just an example, as it is illegal due to safety concerns
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jmasson said:
I think this is more of a safety concern here and can't say I disagree with the law on this one however along the same lines is the issue of handgun hunting. Although illegal I think it is perfectly ethical to hunt with a handgun.
BTW I usually hike but if I saw a 190 whitetail on my way in, you bet your a$$ i would kill it...and hangem on the wall just the same as if I stalked him for 1000 yards
Good post Salty!!!
I'll also add:
Whenever we hunters play the "unethical" card, we always point the finger at the other guy, and help the antis by driving a wedge between us with common intersts, when really, we shoudl be accepting of others LEGAL methods of hunting.
For instance, the BC hutner may turn up his nose at baiting bear, but the Ontario hunter turns around and calls the BC bear hunter a "road hunter" which is true for about 90% of the bears that are kiled in the BC spring hunt. Rarely is one killed more than 100 yards fomr a road or clear cut.
This argument completely counter productive, the only people that win are the antis, when they manage to get baiting banned...Next step is road huting..
I'll also add:
Whenever we hunters play the "unethical" card, we always point the finger at the other guy, and help the antis by driving a wedge between us with common intersts, when really, we shoudl be accepting of others LEGAL methods of hunting.
For instance, the BC hutner may turn up his nose at baiting bear, but the Ontario hunter turns around and calls the BC bear hunter a "road hunter" which is true for about 90% of the bears that are kiled in the BC spring hunt. Rarely is one killed more than 100 yards fomr a road or clear cut.
This argument completely counter productive, the only people that win are the antis, when they manage to get baiting banned...Next step is road huting..
If I see a bear on my way to the stand im sure as hell shooting it.
Why not?
I dont understand the people who complain about bait hunting or road hunting.
I cant say i've hunting in BC but it is almost impossible to stalk bear in the area I'm in. (ottawa)
Its very, very dense and visibility is usually quite limited.
Why not?
I dont understand the people who complain about bait hunting or road hunting.
I cant say i've hunting in BC but it is almost impossible to stalk bear in the area I'm in. (ottawa)
Its very, very dense and visibility is usually quite limited.
^^^ HUH??Gibbs505 said:
I look at it this way. Hunting is like picking apples.
Some of the apples are on low branches and are easy to pick. Some on higher branches and require more effort. As long as you don't cut down the tree to get the apples, you've done job right.
X2!! ........ The antis don't care how you hunt. They don't think you should be hunting at all!Gatehouse said:This argument completely counter productive, the only people that win are the antis, when they manage to get baiting banned...Next step is road huting..
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Salty said:The most ethical way to hunt IMO is (1)find aplace with enough of your quarry so that if you are successfull it will not do harm to the population as a whole, and (2) Kill it as quickly and effectively as possible.
Whether its a shot off of the edge of a bush road at a deer 50 yards away or from a mountain top miles from any road at a deer 300 yards away makes no "ethical" difference to me as long as you have an extremely high chance of making a quick clean kill.
Personally, I prefer to hunt on foot. But I certainly look for game from the truck travelling to and from and if I see the right animal while driving in a legal hunting area, I have no problem in getting out of the truck and harvesting it
Gatehouse said:Good post Salty!!!
I'll also add:
Whenever we hunters play the "unethical" card, we always point the finger at the other guy, and help the antis by driving a wedge between us with common intersts, when really, we shoudl be accepting of others LEGAL methods of hunting.
For instance, the BC hutner may turn up his nose at baiting bear, but the Ontario hunter turns around and calls the BC bear hunter a "road hunter" which is true for about 90% of the bears that are kiled in the BC spring hunt. Rarely is one killed more than 100 yards fomr a road or clear cut.
This argument completely counter productive, the only people that win are the antis, when they manage to get baiting banned...Next step is road huting..
These posts cut to the bones of this debate... very refreshing.
I get tired of hearing the same old criticisms of legal hunting methods by hunters who think that THEIR PERSONAL ETHICS AND METHODS are the only correct hunting methods and ethics. Many Eastern hunters have been the subjects of criticism from western hunters for using semis and pumps and taking running shots. Many westerm hunters have been targeted by eastern hunters for road hunting and shooting long range.
I take a lot of flak from some members for baiting bears and planting food plots but I refuse to challenge their traditional hunting methods. That would be imposing my ethics on them and that would be retarded.
UNITED WE STAND.... you know the rest
Calum said:
Yes and no. Consult the regulations, but its more or less like so:
It is illegal to discharge any centre fire firarm anywhere to the east of the Inland Island Highway in the south half of the island (and much further west of that in many cases).
It is illegal to discharge any firarm within 15 metres of any public road maintained by the Ministry of Transportation.
It is illegal to discharge a firearm from a "Forest Service Road". (these are industrial roads that usually give access to communities and given "FSR" status by the ministry of Forests).
It is legal to hunt from or even shoot from other minor bush roads but of course you must ensure a safe backstop, not anywhere near people, buildings, yada, yada, yada...
edit to add: there's also many no go zones dictated by municipalities, regional districts, conservation areas etc...
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Let me just clarify my statement there, so there's no confusion...
If something is legal - but you FEEL it's unethical - i would rather see you start a new thread discussing it than hijack a thread in progress. Exceptions might be something GROSSLY unethical like "i shot an animal, i'm pretty sure i hit, but i didn't have time to look for it so i didn't bother". Which borders on illegal anyway.
I just wanted to make sure you understood i wasn't saying 'if it's legal it's ethical' - i was saying if it's of questionable ethics, start a new thread.
Which you did - and i greatly appreciate
Yes. Yes it does.
As ethical hunters, we are bound to follow the laws to the best of our abilities.
I know some people 'bend' the law here and there (just like some people go 60 in a 50 zone) and i'm aware that some people who grew up with a different set of laws and sometimes disregard laws they consider to be 'petty' or which are not really entirely applicable to their experience level. And that gets into a grey area, and i think most people even then try to stay within the SPIRIT of the law.
But i do believe that most of us recognize that we cannot pick and choose which laws we will follow or not. If we did that, it would be too easy to throw conservation out the window and wind up simply slaughtering animals or harming a population. Or putting fellow hunters at risk. There is a REASON for the laws we have, and for the most part they're pretty decent reasons. If you don't like 'em, lobby for change.
I was taught four 'tests' to apply whenever i'm questioning if something is 'ethical'.
1 - is it legal? (generally if it fails this one, it's unethical.)
2 - is it balanced? (is anyone getting screwed out of the deal? In this case, we might ask 'is it fair chase' - or are we harming the population? )
3- If the general public knew i did it, how would i feel? (if all the facts were released to people - would i be ashamed? )
4 - if my mentor/personal hero/favourite person knew about all the details, what would they say to me? (would i want the people i look up to to know?)
Generally speaking - if you get thru that list and still don't have a problem with it, it's ethical.
1 - is it legal? (generally if it fails this one, it's unethical.)
2 - is it balanced? (is anyone getting screwed out of the deal? In this case, we might ask 'is it fair chase' - or are we harming the population? )
3- If the general public knew i did it, how would i feel? (if all the facts were released to people - would i be ashamed? )
4 - if my mentor/personal hero/favourite person knew about all the details, what would they say to me? (would i want the people i look up to to know?)
Generally speaking - if you get thru that list and still don't have a problem with it, it's ethical.
A note about road hunting btw.
There's 'road hunting', and then there's 'road hunting'.
Some idiots just load some guns and beer into the car and drive up and down the roads at warp 8 blasting music. They hope that pure luck will give 'em a shot, whereupon the car will screech to a halt and everyone jumps out and shoots. That kind of hunting is the kind most of us frown on when we think 'road hunter'.
But in bc anyway, road hunting can be a bit of an art as well, and a valuable part of your hunt or pre-hunt scouting.
It goes something like this - lets say you're out for 5 days. And maybe it's a new area, or one you haven't been to in a few years.
Day one, road hunting can tell you a heck of a lot about what's going on in the area if you know what you're doing. You go very slow, you hunt thru lunch, and you're basically looking at the lay of the land, you're looking at the tracks in the road (the roads here ##### cross so much the animals will undoubtedly cross at some point, often more than once) and you're looking for other signs or indications of what's going on in the area.
Day two you do something similar - except maybe you set up somewhere for first light and see what's moving. Now you're looking for tracks that were made last night and this morning when you're on the move, and you're expanding your knowledge of the lay of the land (going down lots of little side roads, seeing where they go, etc. Marking gps points of interest.).
Done properly, this can tell you a hell of a lot. You should know what animals are in the area (including domestics like cow, something that you may want to keep in mind when shooting), if there are any bucks, if they're moving thru or hanging in the area, where they go in the mornings, if there are bucks in with the does, etc etc. For bears it can give clues like if there's a sow and a cub in the area, etc.
It also lets you observe things like wind direction different times of the day, any other hunting camps in the area, etc.
Add that together with your knowledge of weather and time of year etc and you've probably got a pretty good idea of where the animals are, and what they're doing.
Now - days 3, 4 and 5 you can better target your walking, or sit and spot places, and radically improve your chance at an animal.
This kind of road hunting does involve a little getting out of your vehicle to check tracks and such, and maybe poking around a little in the bush, but not all that much.
Now - that's a whole different kind of road hunting. It requires good hunting knowledge and skills to pay off - and it's mostly geared towards giving you a better chance later in the hunt. You may very well get 'lucky' a bit and get a shot off you didn't expect. So it's still hunting. But it does take a lot of skill and knowledge of the game to pay off consistantly.
The advantage is you wind up covering a LOT more ground than just walking, and you begin to 'dial in' the game faster and more effectively.
You can't compare the two - the first one relies on luck entirely, the second one relies on strong knowledge of the animals, good skills at reading sign and terrain, and is intended to suppliment other techniques, not replace 'em.
There's 'road hunting', and then there's 'road hunting'.
Some idiots just load some guns and beer into the car and drive up and down the roads at warp 8 blasting music. They hope that pure luck will give 'em a shot, whereupon the car will screech to a halt and everyone jumps out and shoots. That kind of hunting is the kind most of us frown on when we think 'road hunter'.
But in bc anyway, road hunting can be a bit of an art as well, and a valuable part of your hunt or pre-hunt scouting.
It goes something like this - lets say you're out for 5 days. And maybe it's a new area, or one you haven't been to in a few years.
Day one, road hunting can tell you a heck of a lot about what's going on in the area if you know what you're doing. You go very slow, you hunt thru lunch, and you're basically looking at the lay of the land, you're looking at the tracks in the road (the roads here ##### cross so much the animals will undoubtedly cross at some point, often more than once) and you're looking for other signs or indications of what's going on in the area.
Day two you do something similar - except maybe you set up somewhere for first light and see what's moving. Now you're looking for tracks that were made last night and this morning when you're on the move, and you're expanding your knowledge of the lay of the land (going down lots of little side roads, seeing where they go, etc. Marking gps points of interest.).
Done properly, this can tell you a hell of a lot. You should know what animals are in the area (including domestics like cow, something that you may want to keep in mind when shooting), if there are any bucks, if they're moving thru or hanging in the area, where they go in the mornings, if there are bucks in with the does, etc etc. For bears it can give clues like if there's a sow and a cub in the area, etc.
It also lets you observe things like wind direction different times of the day, any other hunting camps in the area, etc.
Add that together with your knowledge of weather and time of year etc and you've probably got a pretty good idea of where the animals are, and what they're doing.
Now - days 3, 4 and 5 you can better target your walking, or sit and spot places, and radically improve your chance at an animal.
This kind of road hunting does involve a little getting out of your vehicle to check tracks and such, and maybe poking around a little in the bush, but not all that much.
Now - that's a whole different kind of road hunting. It requires good hunting knowledge and skills to pay off - and it's mostly geared towards giving you a better chance later in the hunt. You may very well get 'lucky' a bit and get a shot off you didn't expect. So it's still hunting. But it does take a lot of skill and knowledge of the game to pay off consistantly.
The advantage is you wind up covering a LOT more ground than just walking, and you begin to 'dial in' the game faster and more effectively.
You can't compare the two - the first one relies on luck entirely, the second one relies on strong knowledge of the animals, good skills at reading sign and terrain, and is intended to suppliment other techniques, not replace 'em.
