Less powder = more fps ???

Why would you tell him to put the chronograph away? If he brings it out only after he has found his most accurate load, he's missed out on a whole pile of data that can be used to correlate with things (as you've suggested) such as vertical spread. Much about accuracy (or more appropriately, precision) is dependant on velocity and the shot-to-shot consistency of it.

Learn to use the tools. Learn to interpret the results. Embrace information, knowledge, and insight instead of stalling out at "good enough" or "been doing it this way for twenty years". If it's available to us and provides us with something valuable, I say we use it as much as is practical.

Rooster
 
cr5 said:
I would put the chronograph away. In my opinion velocity is useless when doing load development until you find your accuracy node for the bullet being used. I would test each powder charge in the range you've chosen with 0.2-0.3 grains between each load with at least three rounds per charge and waiting 3 minutes between each shot, if your barrel starts getting warm take a break and let it cool longer. You will find one load shoots better than all the rest, primarily watch for verticle spread. Then make 5 of those rounds again plus 5 more with 0.1-0.2 grains more and 0.1-0.2 grains less and do the same test again. Pick the best load then start playing with seating depth and see if improvements can be found.
Once you have your most accurate load run a few over the chronograph and write down your results.

.
Click to expand...


I plan to try this in the near future
 
cr5 said:
I've seen with many rifles of mine that if you do a wide spread of test rounds you will find an upper and lower accuracy node, I always pick the upper node as my pet load for that bullet/powder combination for that rifle. I don't load for a velocity target but instead the best groups. As was mentioned earlier trying to duplicate a factory load is pointless as we don't usually have access to the same powders the factory uses which will cause different pressures and different barrel harmonics giving different results even at the same muzzle velocity.
I've only been fortunate enough to have the same load shoot exceptionally well in more than one of my rifles of the same caliber once. I have a 300BLK bolt action and a 300BLK semi that both like the same load.
Click to expand...


358Rooster said:
Why would you tell him to put the chronograph away? If he brings it out only after he has found his most accurate load, he's missed out on a whole pile of data that can be used to correlate with things (as you've suggested) such as vertical spread. Much about accuracy (or more appropriately, precision) is dependant on velocity and the shot-to-shot consistency of it.

Learn to use the tools. Learn to interpret the results. Embrace information, knowledge, and insight instead of stalling out at "good enough" or "been doing it this way for twenty years". If it's available to us and provides us with something valuable, I say we use it as much as is practical.

Rooster
Click to expand...



I think a little background of what I am trying to do will help to get me started ,,, A new 1600 meter gun range with steel targets 16 x 24 every 100 meters opened near me ... I bought a Ruger RPR in 6.5 creedmoor to play ,,, Right now ammo is very hard to find,,, So a small fortune and now i'm reloading ,,,, ( i do have a buddy that also reloads for hunting but nothing fancy ) I do plan on playing with accuracy down the road ... but for now trying to reproduce the factory round for plinking steel .... So far i have accurate hits out to 1200 meters with the Hornady 140 eld match ammo this is why I was trying to match speed as I was thinking my DOPE learnt would not change,,, Simply put I need something to work and I can play with perfection later ... lol
 
One use for a chronograph for those chasing velocity is to track velocity increases against charge weight increases. Within the normal pressure curve for a particular powder, there should be a relatively constant correlation. A consistent increment in powder charge should result in a consistent increase in velocity. (Within the parameters of the instrumentation, of course. Powder scale weights continue to be approximations until you are counting molecules, and velocities are not solely dependent on powder charge - bullet weights vary within a box, brass tension varies around the case neck, let alone from case to case, and so on.)

Still, if adding 0.G grains of your favorite powder has, over the past three increments yielded between VV and QQ fps, and adding a fourth 0.G gr increment adds (VV+QQ) /2 fps, or 2 x VV fps, you may be on your way to excessive pressure.
 
RonB, Ganderite is likely the most experienced hand loader on this forum. There are others with as much knowledge and skill but they don't always participate for whatever reason.

The only thing I can add to his comments is something he likely assumed you already know. He did allude to it though. Factories will usually order up batches of ammo that may or may not have a normal nomenclature. Not always though. They will order large quantities for specific projects or to cover a range of projects. These powders will be different from the canister powders available to most hand loaders. They may be similar in burning rate to one or another powder type, say IMR 4350. But they won't be the IMR 4350 that will be available to you from your local gun shop.

It may be a faster or slower burning lot that will be given a designation of its own and usually the factory will use as much of it as possible before surplussing it out to specially selected vendors. These types of powders used to be available from Higginson's Powders but we don't see much of it anymore. The thing is, those powders are not for the novice or even a lot of hand loaders with experience. Most hand loaders just follow the instruction in the loading manuals which will also differ from one to the next, even if they are from the same company.

You need to realize right away that every batch of powder is different from another, even if it bears the same designation. It may be slower or faster or the same as the last lot you picked up. Primers are the same as are bullet lots. It's all variable all of the time. Then throw in temperatures and other weather factors and you quickly learn that nothing is set in stone when it comes to hand loads or factory loads.

One of the best things I was lucky enough to learn early was to purchase my components in bulk. If the powder in my canisters wasn't from the same lot then take all of the powder with the same designation and mix it all together into one big lot that would be consistent over a lot of rounds. I don't purchase part cans of powder from anyone. You just can't be sure what's in those cans. Mind you I am spoiled, I lived through a time when you could purchase 25 and 50 pound heavy cardboard kegs of 4831 very cheaply. I am still using some of those powders I purchased over 45 years ago.

Be careful who you choose as a mentor. Some folks that claim to be experts have never learned to use proper loading techniques and can get you into trouble very quickly. Join a club and talk with the folks there. They will usually be happy to help in one manner or another as long as you are paying for your own components.
 
If it was me, I would drop to 40grs, load 5 rounds, then start loading just 3 rounds moving up .5grs until max. Clean the bore, shoot 2 of the 40grs load to foul then proceed with 3 shot groups allowing the barrel to cool completely after each string.
 
358Rooster said:
Why would you tell him to put the chronograph away? If he brings it out only after he has found his most accurate load, he's missed out on a whole pile of data that can be used to correlate with things (as you've suggested) such as vertical spread. Much about accuracy (or more appropriately, precision) is dependant on velocity and the shot-to-shot consistency of it.

Learn to use the tools. Learn to interpret the results. Embrace information, knowledge, and insight instead of stalling out at "good enough" or "been doing it this way for twenty years". If it's available to us and provides us with something valuable, I say we use it as much as is practical.

Rooster
Click to expand...

Because most people who are new to reloading end up chasing max velocities thinking it will help them shoot further when in actuality having an accurate load will get you better results at distance even if you need to dial up another moa on your turret. Higher velocity only helps you miss faster if you don't have an accurate load.
Once you've found your accuracy node the chronograph becomes a valuable tool to measure consistency from round to round.
What value is there in knowing the muzzle velocity of a particular load that is producing 3 moa groups? Chances are you'll never load that charge under that projectile again and all your log book needs to read is the groups size so you don't waste time and resources on it again.
The chronograph is definitely a useful tool but I can find the optimal charge for my rifle, bullet, powder combination without one and knowing the velocity does little to improve on that. Knowing the velocity is great for entering into a ballistics program to get you on paper faster when going from 200yds to 800yds in one step but I've found that the ballistics programs theoretical calculations are never real world ballistic solutions, I always have to tweak the numbers to get my calculator to spit out accurate dial-ups.


OP, Gunneegoogoo's sugestion about testing at 200 or even 300 yards is very good advice. The further out you test the more you see, I won't even shoot my 338 Lapua at less than 200 yards, it's a waste of ammo and time.
 
cr5 said:
Because most people who are new to reloading end up chasing max velocities thinking it will help them shoot further when in actuality having an accurate load will get you better results at distance even if you need to dial up another moa on your turret. Higher velocity only helps you miss faster if you don't have an accurate load.
Once you've found your accuracy node the chronograph becomes a valuable tool to measure consistency from round to round.
What value is there in knowing the muzzle velocity of a particular load that is producing 3 moa groups? Chances are you'll never load that charge under that projectile again and all your log book needs to read is the groups size so you don't waste time and resources on it again.
The chronograph is definitely a useful tool but I can find the optimal charge for my rifle, bullet, powder combination without one and knowing the velocity does little to improve on that. Knowing the velocity is great for entering into a ballistics program to get you on paper faster when going from 200yds to 800yds in one step but I've found that the ballistics programs theoretical calculations are never real world ballistic solutions, I always have to tweak the numbers to get my calculator to spit out accurate dial-ups.


OP, Gunneegoogoo's sugestion about testing at 200 or even 300 yards is very good advice. The further out you test the more you see, I won't even shoot my 338 Lapua at less than 200 yards, it's a waste of ammo and time.
Click to expand...

Pretty much the way I do it - find a load that works, then fine-tune, chrony, etc. To me, fps is meaningless, as for a hunting load, a critter won't know how fast the bullet was moving, and for target, group size is king. My big problem is I don't document properly - even though I keep telling myself I will.

There is one exception to the above - sometimes, I want to load for max recoil, say in the 375, 458 or 45-70, just for gits and shiggles when I take guys out to the range.:evil:
 
Have a look on mystic precision's website and read his explanation of how to work up a load.....I still can't get behind shooting only 2 or 3 per group, but I subscribe to 98% of it.

Don't worry about your velocity number, that's all it is - a number - something else to fret about. I liken it to those (ie most) that think an MRI will answer everything. It will not. It is just another tool in a doctors quest to determine what's wrong. The chrono, nor the MRI, are the magic answer machine.

Shoot for the results you need - a 3-5 shot group with minimal vertical dispersion. Barring a gusty day with the wind at your back or in your face, that's the best gauge of success, because IT IS success. Chrono numbers are a surrogate for the end goal. EYES ON THE PRIZE!!!

Once you've found your sweet spot powder charge, then mess with CBTO length to really make it tight, THEN run 5-10 over your chrono to get your MV, put that info into your ballistics software of choice, and yur done!!!

Make sense?? Some will disagree, but I find this is the best way to sift through the chaff, and avoid fretting over meaningless sh!t, just like I do at work ALL F-Ing WEEK!!!!

Good morning everyone!! Happy week!!!

GGG
 
Okay, yep....agreed. I just think that a guy new to the whole thing could use it to understand what actually happens along the way to the sweet spots (hate using that term for some reason). On the other hand, you bring up a good point that a newb may be tempted by the glory of velocity. I digress. By no means am I trying to say you NEED a chronograph for load testing. I know that when I do (not always), the numbers can help in determining what's going on, on the paper.

Considering the OP's goal of reaching way the heck out there, yes, I agree that testing at 200 - 300 yards is very important. I've gone so far as to test at 5 & 600 yards with my precision rifles. Less with my hunting rifles because I don't feel I need gnat's eye precision for those at the ranges I want to kill stuff.

Rooster
 
I am getting so tired of countless writers on here posting about how lower velocities will give best accuracy. Where do they get this from? Certainly not from factories that make up quantities of match ammunition for various large competitions, because their match ammo is always loaded to higher velocity than standard ammunition of the same calibre.
And what do the top competitors do in world class long range competitions? Here is a copy from Warren Page's book, The Accurate Rifle. And in case you don't know, Warren Page has often been referred to as the worlds greatest rifleman, ever, with one of his accomplishments being winner of the National Match bench rest championship competition for nine years.
Here is what he says in his book about loading for long range shooting.

 
Last edited:
I agree completely withH4831. I have almost always gotten my best accuracy at or near +/_max. This is especially so with slow burning powders. If you want to shoot slower go to a faster powders. Also Nosler partitions always seem to work better the faster you push them.
Just my experience.

Neil
 
I don't think anyone is saying that "the best" accuracy is slower, but that there is an accuracy node below max that is just as accurate, doesn't burn out barrels, and doesn't risk overpressuring on a 35deg day.

BR is a whole different game, where barrels get replaced at X shots no matter what.

GGG
 
H4831 said:
I am getting so tired of countless writers on here posting about how lower velocities will give best accuracy. Where do they get this from? Certainly not from factories that make up quantities of match ammunition for various large competitions, because their match ammo is always loaded to higher velocity than standard ammunition of the same calibre.
And what do the top competitors do in world class long range competitions? Here is a copy from Warren Page's book, The Accurate Rifle. And in case you don't know, Warren Page has often been referred to as the worlds greatest rifleman, ever, with one of his accomplishments being winner of the National Match bench rest championship competition for nine years.
Click to expand...

I never said max velocity wasn't the most accurate. I'm only saying that you don't need a chronograph to develop an accurate load, in some situations a max charge will give you your most accurate load but more times than not you will find your most accurate combination a little below that. When we are loading for a precision rifle I feel we are better served loading to find the most accurate and consistent load rather than worrying about velocity. A load that shoots half moa groups at 90% of the way to where you see pressure signs will make smaller groups at 1000 yards than a load that is just below or at the point where pressure signs start to appear that shoots one moa. 100 fps less isn't going to give you a round that doesn't make it to the target but will simply give you a round that requires a few more clicks of elevation to get you there.
My 223 bolt action with Barnes 36gr varmint grenade demonstrates what you are saying, I tested loads from about 50% of my books recommended charge range up to slightly over book max with no pressure signs and the tightest groups turned out being right around book max which was great since it's a varmint rifle but most of my other rifles shoot the tightest groups below max. This is why I don't bother with the chronograph until ive found the sweet spot then I add more data to my loading logs using the chrony to ensure I'm in the upper range of the velocity for that particular cartridge.
When loading a full series of loads that span the book minimum to maximum at small increments I almost always see the results show an upper and lower node. Starting low things start kinda loose then the groups tighen up, then things get sloppy as the charge increases, then it tightens up again as you approach max then usually but not always the groups get loose again as you continue on towards max charge and things like bolt lift and flattened primers start showing themselves.
As we all know, every rifle is different and responds differently to a load, some will show pressure signs below book max and others can safely exceed it. I try to teach new loaders that you need to do the entire range to see how your particular rifle responds and not simply go for max velocity for long range accuracy and also that every rifle needs it's own development rather than trying to shortcut by asking what someone elses best load is. I have no problem with people asking what bullet/powder combination works best for others as long as they understand that they will still need to do a full workup for their rifle.
 
I agree that most powders burn most consistently at high pressure.

That said, each rifle develops pressure differently. Therefore he has to start low, and test upwards to find what works best. "Best" will probably be at the hot end of the spectrum - for that rifle. He appears to have started with a max load and worked up from there. I would say a 6.5 is the worst caliber to to that with.
 
Ganderite said:
I agree that most powders burn most consistently at high pressure.

That said, each rifle develops pressure differently. Therefore he has to start low, and test upwards to find what works best. "Best" will probably be at the hot end of the spectrum - for that rifle. He appears to have started with a max load and worked up from there. I would say a 6.5 is the worst caliber to to that with.
Click to expand...

How come?
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
If you're new at this, read the "understanding pressure" article on the Primal Rights website. I wish it was around when I got into this heavy. I say this for 2 reasons. 1. Overall Safety, and 2. There comes a time when increasing your powder charge results in losing velocity, which is what you're concerned about. I don't think that's your issue here, but it's just food for thought.

GGG
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up, just read the article..very good stuff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom