To clarify a few previous posts...I have now heard the Sightron is making another attempt at the Canadian market with a new rep. group..we'll see what happens. The VX-7's are 30 mm main tubes not 34mm. Leupold claims best light transmission in their VX-III's and above of 98 % total transmission through entire scope not just through one lens (some manufacturers only give this measurement through one lens). Leupold also claims only Zeiss Victori/Diavari is in this percentage base and that this is the theoretical maximum that can be accieved. Phil.
lets compare high end scopes
- Thread starter daniellybbert
- Start date
Claiming one thing, and actually having it is another..............
I have owned & used various VAR-III Tactical scopes, and several Mark IV scopes and they were nowhere as bright/clear/distortion free as the S&B PM-II I currently own..........................The Discontinued B&L 10X Tactical I had years ago was also better then the Leupolds................
Leupolds are good optics, but just not as good as they claim, IMHO..............
SKBY.
Remember SKBY ,that percentage of light transmission is not the same as resolution or even color separation. This number that Leupold uses is in reference is to light transmission only. Although you would think that one measurement would certainly have an impact on the other qualities of the optics. To be fair ,can you really make a direct comparison between scopes in the $750-$1500 area to a scope in mid $3000 level? I agree that the S&B PM-II is a better scope but how much better for the money. I think this is a perfect example of the law of diminishing returns. You have to spend a lot more money to get a somewhat better scope. I know that you know the difference and can appreciate better equipment but you would be surprised how many people come into the store and comparing high end vs middle of the road and then entry level optics tell me they all look the same or even the cheapest one is the "brightest". I would like to see an unbiased comparison of the best optics at the laboratory level measuring all those things that manufacturers claim as opposed to subjective opinions we all have from our personal experiences and biases. Just my opinion though.... Phil.
Everyones eyes are different and that comes into play when looking through optics..............I have had people look through my various scopes and not really see a difference as well............
I agree with you that it is not really an apples to apples comparison..........
The B&L Tactical I mentioned was still (for me) brighter/clearer/and less distorted then any of the topline leupolds I have owned.............and the B&L retailed for $950.00 at the time, and the Leupold Mark IV 16X I bought to replace it was listed for over $2000.00.............go figure........
..........I still regret selling off the B&L............The selling points for the S&B that sold me were the P4 Illuminated Reticle, the Dual Turn Elevation Adjustments, and the 34mm tube with the 56mm objective. I also made the mistake of looking through a buddies S&B and then looking throught my MK IV....................no contest...
SKBY.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Optics are only one factor of the equation. A scope that produces repeatable adjustments and years of fail free service is invaluable. I have two scopes that have failed in this regard; my Burris Scout that was mounted on my .375 and the Springfield Professional that was on my .308 target rifle. I also have one scope that has passed this test with flying colors, that is my 6X Khales, and I anticipate that years from now my S&B will still produce 1/10 of a mil with each click.
These days even economically priced scopes have good optics, but I believe that the adjustments are where much of the money needs to be spent.
These days even economically priced scopes have good optics, but I believe that the adjustments are where much of the money needs to be spent.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
For me, I went through the process of used gunshow scopes trying to find a 'deal'. Did the Tascos and low end Bushnells of all sorts.
What I found was that the mechanicals on many of these lesser brands could be excellent. Especially those made in Japan (70 and 80's vintage).
I used several Tasco World Class fixed mag target scopes and their mechanicals were superb. I never had an issue and I competed in small bore silhoutte so I dialed ALOT.
Optics were pretty decent but coatings were so so. I think it was only partially coated. Was quite dim which worked out great shooting in the summer. Was like having sunglasses on.
I have a low end Bushnell variable on my 10/22 with a BDC. Optics in the mid mag range is surprisingly good. All sorts of parallax for short range use but fine when shooting at 100yds and beyond (not a short range scope).
Damn, if that dial isn't bang on every single time. I have used this scope for 8yrs off and on with zero issues. Not bad for $50.
Sure there is lots of plastic in these cheaper scopes but I have tested some Chinese 'specials' that worked great too. Alot will not so always better to lean on the better products with better designs.
Optics are really improving in mid priced products. Bushnell and Nikon are really taking it up a notch. For up to 1/4 the cost, the optical qualities are like 95% of the super dollar scopes and better then some "domestic" brands.
Their mechanicals match or beat the mega dollar scopes!
At the very top of the food chain, you spend alot and you get a superb product. However, there is alot of mid priced stuff that is really good.
New products from Bushnell and Sightron this year, might just prove to be excellent?????
Jerry
What I found was that the mechanicals on many of these lesser brands could be excellent. Especially those made in Japan (70 and 80's vintage).
I used several Tasco World Class fixed mag target scopes and their mechanicals were superb. I never had an issue and I competed in small bore silhoutte so I dialed ALOT.
Optics were pretty decent but coatings were so so. I think it was only partially coated. Was quite dim which worked out great shooting in the summer. Was like having sunglasses on.
I have a low end Bushnell variable on my 10/22 with a BDC. Optics in the mid mag range is surprisingly good. All sorts of parallax for short range use but fine when shooting at 100yds and beyond (not a short range scope).
Damn, if that dial isn't bang on every single time. I have used this scope for 8yrs off and on with zero issues. Not bad for $50.
Sure there is lots of plastic in these cheaper scopes but I have tested some Chinese 'specials' that worked great too. Alot will not so always better to lean on the better products with better designs.
Optics are really improving in mid priced products. Bushnell and Nikon are really taking it up a notch. For up to 1/4 the cost, the optical qualities are like 95% of the super dollar scopes and better then some "domestic" brands.
Their mechanicals match or beat the mega dollar scopes!
At the very top of the food chain, you spend alot and you get a superb product. However, there is alot of mid priced stuff that is really good.
New products from Bushnell and Sightron this year, might just prove to be excellent?????
Jerry
Well I can tell you all about the S&B warranty, you go through Wolverine, and they'll treat you like gold. I had issues with my first two 5-25x Fine Reticle PMIIs. Reticle marking paint was splattered in a few areas of the lens and while not it didn't obscure anything important, it's like fingerprints in the paint of your Lamborghini, not good. The only downside was the wait for the new scopes to come to replace the one I had (it happened twice). The upside was that S&B authorized me to keep the screwed up one each time, until the new unit was at Wolverine and then it was only a couple days to do the swap. S&B/Wolverine also paid shipping both times.
I seem to have wonderful luck when it comes to this kind of thing, as I've had problems with almost every 1st time item I've ever bought. I could've gone with a USO, or a Nightforce, or another Leupold, or whatever, but in the end I picked the scope that I thought I could best see through and use. It also had the best magnification range for my uses, although the new 12.5-50 that'll be at SHOT Show 2008 has 757Fixer and I drooling already.
as for buying an S&B in Europe being cheaper, not in my experience. I have friends who are shooters in numerous European countries and had them look into getting me this scope, or setting me up with a dealer. Even without paying one of those countries taxes, by the time you factor in shipping, insurance and the price, it was within $100 of buying it here. Knowing that all I had to do was drive 20 minutes to VBull Precisions place and pick it up, was a hell of lot easier than waiting on it to come from Norway or Switzerland and maybe get lost.
Now PE90 mags are a totally different story. those are much much cheaper in Europe.
I seem to have wonderful luck when it comes to this kind of thing, as I've had problems with almost every 1st time item I've ever bought. I could've gone with a USO, or a Nightforce, or another Leupold, or whatever, but in the end I picked the scope that I thought I could best see through and use. It also had the best magnification range for my uses, although the new 12.5-50 that'll be at SHOT Show 2008 has 757Fixer and I drooling already.
as for buying an S&B in Europe being cheaper, not in my experience. I have friends who are shooters in numerous European countries and had them look into getting me this scope, or setting me up with a dealer. Even without paying one of those countries taxes, by the time you factor in shipping, insurance and the price, it was within $100 of buying it here. Knowing that all I had to do was drive 20 minutes to VBull Precisions place and pick it up, was a hell of lot easier than waiting on it to come from Norway or Switzerland and maybe get lost.
Now PE90 mags are a totally different story. those are much much cheaper in Europe.
Lets be realistic. When we're talking about such high end optics as those in this thread. Does the 1%, 3% or 5% gain in light transmission, or "perceived" clarity in one brand over another really make a difference??? I think not. Quality glass is quality glass. None of the above mentioned brands will improve anyone's marksmanship skills. Mechanically they all perform the same task, which means the operator is the weak point in the system...Ultimately, it is the operator who makes the difference, not the tech. specs.
TDC
TDC
This may help very good info on this topic
http://www.6mmbr.com/optics.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/SchmidtBenderPM2.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/optics.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/SchmidtBenderPM2.html
daniellybbert
CGN Regular
TDC you are mostly right
but when you have spent thousands of $$ on the rifle of your dreams I can promise a bushnell dusk to dawn wont do the gun justice
and that is why I started this thread the best scope for the best money
I have a pair of SWAR binos and my bro a pair of leupolds He doesnt believe there is a diffrence except in price
but the day he spends a week straight behind his glasses looking for sheep he will know the diffrence
the diffrence between good and great may be minute but may still be very important
but when you have spent thousands of $$ on the rifle of your dreams I can promise a bushnell dusk to dawn wont do the gun justice
and that is why I started this thread the best scope for the best money
I have a pair of SWAR binos and my bro a pair of leupolds He doesnt believe there is a diffrence except in price
but the day he spends a week straight behind his glasses looking for sheep he will know the diffrence
the diffrence between good and great may be minute but may still be very important
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
For binos, you bet as you will be looking through them for a very long time and any 'offs' will drive you insane. See how comfortable he is when glassing telephone lines at 1000+yds after 15mins of constant viewing. Odds are he will ask for two Tylenol :-0
He may want to look at the upper end Nikon and Pentax binos. The Nikon Venturers and Superiors were rated tops by birders for several years, a few years back. They have come down in price substantially and would be around 1/3 the costs of a Swar.
I am using a Nikon XL Action extreme porro prism 12X binos for general 1000yds glassing/spotting and it is insanely good for the money. Good enough to resolve wild grass and small branches at 1km. Looses it when you go beyond.
If looking for a great spotting scope for a dirt cheap price, I have now playing with a Pentax 65ED and am very impressed for a compact spotting scope. Small enough to pack into the hills but gives big scope optics.
The 80mm version is rated by many as a top buy of any spotting scope today. These retail for about 1/2 the Leica and Swar. I say they give 95+% performance of the Leica and Swar. The best spotting scope I have ever used was a Leica but it is HUGE>
I put the 80mm variable eyepiece on the 65ED and it gives a commanding view of the terrain at 2000yds. The standard variable is not eyeglass friendly and really only useful up to 45X (20 to 60X).
You don't glass using a rifle scope and optics on many of the Japanese brands mentioned are superb.
I spend my bucks on the optics that I glass and range with. The scope has to be mechanically solid and glass clear enough to engage my target. I don't need a scope over $1000 to do that....
Jerry
He may want to look at the upper end Nikon and Pentax binos. The Nikon Venturers and Superiors were rated tops by birders for several years, a few years back. They have come down in price substantially and would be around 1/3 the costs of a Swar.
I am using a Nikon XL Action extreme porro prism 12X binos for general 1000yds glassing/spotting and it is insanely good for the money. Good enough to resolve wild grass and small branches at 1km. Looses it when you go beyond.
If looking for a great spotting scope for a dirt cheap price, I have now playing with a Pentax 65ED and am very impressed for a compact spotting scope. Small enough to pack into the hills but gives big scope optics.
The 80mm version is rated by many as a top buy of any spotting scope today. These retail for about 1/2 the Leica and Swar. I say they give 95+% performance of the Leica and Swar. The best spotting scope I have ever used was a Leica but it is HUGE>
I put the 80mm variable eyepiece on the 65ED and it gives a commanding view of the terrain at 2000yds. The standard variable is not eyeglass friendly and really only useful up to 45X (20 to 60X).
You don't glass using a rifle scope and optics on many of the Japanese brands mentioned are superb.
I spend my bucks on the optics that I glass and range with. The scope has to be mechanically solid and glass clear enough to engage my target. I don't need a scope over $1000 to do that....
Jerry
I agree. I'm referring to Swarovski, Zeiss, S&B, Nightforce, and US Optics. The differences between these brands is more to do with tech specs like tube diameter, power range, reticle style etc etc. The quality is high and any of the above will do the job. unless one brand has options you the user specifically want/need. There is really no need to spend $3000 plus when a $1500 optic will do just as well. Just my take on it.
TDC
I have used & owned optics in the $1500.00 range, and sorry to burst your bubble, to my eyes the S&B is heads and tails above those scopes...................if you can't see it, or see it clearly, then you can't hit it................
SKBY.
To each their own. I would say its the shooter, not the gear in that case. Lesser quality gear has been run by better shooters than those on this forum. Which kind of negates the "necessary" or "obvious" requirement for high dollar gear in order to make hits.
TDC
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
I have bought more than 5 IOR's from Oeter Dobson over the years .
The scopes are as top notch as Peter's service is.
The Canadian Forces have also been using IOR Valdadas on some of their rifles and the response and actual field tests have been very positive.
Don't know where the negative stuff came from as far as the promoters go, but none of the negative feedback came from this part of the province, and their are several of us up here that swear by them.
I use IOR's from 6X on my O/U 9.3X74R to 9-36X on one of my long range rifles.
Cat
Whatever works for your eyesight is the choice to make. Different coatings to lenses can enhance color saturation, improve contrast both in the color spectrum and in perceived visibility and so on. From a practical POV, comparing Swarovski, Zeiss, Kahles, S&B and their equivalents, if there are any, is like comparing Ferraris to Lamborghinis. Real differences are simply a matter of taste. Function is already a given. There are some exceptions to ruling out all the rest, again depending on the end purpose. New high end Burris's are good, as are the upper end Leupold and Nikon, B&L, and so on, yet there is another that's not talked about much - Meopta. Brilliant glass. Parallax free. Fixed eye relief at any power. For the money IMO the best you could ever need. Definitely a better scope than my Conquests which ain't exactly slouches. Still all that being said, if it was down to one choice and price was not an object for me, it would be a coin toss between Kahles and Schmidt & Bender - both absolutely beautifully made and warranted.
plus you are paying for the features, which in the case of the S&B PMII line is the cool turrets, the reticle, and then of course the amazing optics.
Plus and lets not kid ourselves, the Look Cool Factor is extremely high with these scopes, USO, S&B etc. you simply put a Tasco or Bushnell beside our S&B's and ask someone who knows nothing which one is more impressive, it'll be the big cool looking scope that wins everytime, and that gets me the chicks, so I win! HA HAHA
Plus and lets not kid ourselves, the Look Cool Factor is extremely high with these scopes, USO, S&B etc. you simply put a Tasco or Bushnell beside our S&B's and ask someone who knows nothing which one is more impressive, it'll be the big cool looking scope that wins everytime
, and that gets me the chicks, so I win! HA HAHAplus you are paying for the features, which in the case of the S&B PMII line is the cool turrets, the reticle, and then of course the amazing optics.
Plus and lets not kid ourselves, the Look Cool Factor is extremely high with these scopes, USO, S&B etc. you simply put a Tasco or Bushnell beside our S&B's and ask someone who knows nothing which one is more impressive, it'll be the big cool looking scope that wins everytime
I sense some sarcasm but, please don't encourage people to buy expensive equipment for the look cool factor. Nothing screams "poser" like a new shooter who can't operate his high dollar equipment.On another note, its the operator that makes the difference. Cheap glass, or no glass. If the guy can shoot it he gets my respect.
TDC
