Let's see some pic's of your SxS's & O/U's
- Thread starter Win/64
- Start date
Are you referring to my Pape? I am glad you like it, it's a joy to shoot though I have not shot it in awhile the top rib popped on me while shooting clays in the fall so I sent the barrel set off to Nick Makinson to have the ribs relayed it; it's in capable hands.
Northern Skies, lefties aren't forgotten. Tradex TEC has a left handed gun listed under their British Makers section, even the top lever opens opposite to most guns. Most left handers get the gun they want and then have the stock bent to fit, there are a few who do this scattered across the country, even trap, skeet and sporting clays shooters sometimes go this route on their new over/unders.
Northern Skies, even the Victorians thought of lefties when building the new breech-loaders. For guns with under-lever screw grips, it was a matter of reversing the interrupted thread to have the lever swing out to the other side. A few actions types, such as Westley Richards' and Thomas Horsley's pull-top-levers, the William Powell lifting top-lever and Cogswell & Harrison's (and others) push-under-levers worked equally well for left-hand or right-hand users. Later swinging top-levers could be made to swing to the left, though that was usually more complicated to achieve, and I've seen a few pictures of left-handed side-lever guns, though I've never handled one. However, most guns were built for right-handers, and most new patents in the 1860s would have been very clumsy to use left-handed.
Here is a fine Victorian left-handed gun, a 12-bore pinfire (of course) signed by Joseph Braddell & Son of 17 Castle Place, Belfast, Ireland. As is very often the case, Braddell & Son were retailers and likely had all their guns made for them by Birmingham and London makers. Surviving examples of Braddell marked guns appear to be of fine quality, and not hardware-store type guns. This gun was probably made around 1865, and though the company only recently went out of business (at the end mainly selling fishing tackle), the gunmaking records prior to the 1920s have not survived.
Of note this gun has a fluted action bar, flat-sided sculptured hammers, thin percussion fences, good quality foliate scroll engraving, and traces of colour on the lock plates and the fore-end iron. The bores are mirror with only slight pitting at breech, and the gun weighs a tidy 7 lb 5 oz.
Here is a fine Victorian left-handed gun, a 12-bore pinfire (of course) signed by Joseph Braddell & Son of 17 Castle Place, Belfast, Ireland. As is very often the case, Braddell & Son were retailers and likely had all their guns made for them by Birmingham and London makers. Surviving examples of Braddell marked guns appear to be of fine quality, and not hardware-store type guns. This gun was probably made around 1865, and though the company only recently went out of business (at the end mainly selling fishing tackle), the gunmaking records prior to the 1920s have not survived.
Of note this gun has a fluted action bar, flat-sided sculptured hammers, thin percussion fences, good quality foliate scroll engraving, and traces of colour on the lock plates and the fore-end iron. The bores are mirror with only slight pitting at breech, and the gun weighs a tidy 7 lb 5 oz.
I call these sorts of images "gun ####". I called the album "Classic Doubles" on Nikon's site because I thought they might have a bot deleting #### images. The refinish on the Tobin has not been completed, so it's a bit rough still.
http://img.gg/Ev9W64W
http://img.gg/Ev9W64W
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Yes I am, it's the only one in the thread. The celtic-style engraving looks very unique. And as I do my research here, it seems that Pape left the legacy of one of the first choke-boring patents. I found another one for sale but I think it's probably a wall-hanger.
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Ok, let's talk! That Powell is what got me started down this road in the first place. I'm keeping it under heavy consideration. The sleeving job looks very well done so I have no concerns there. But the top lever orientation being equivalent to one which is to the "left" in a normal gun, combined with the lug looking like it may have been upset with a cross-peen hammer at some point, makes me wonder whether it's really a tight gun. Looking at the wider gap at the front of the dolls-head compared to the rear, I guess it was re-joined when the sleeving job was done. I'm guessing at all of this based only on what I know from forums and those Jack Rowe clips on youtube, so I don't really know.
I could probably find it useful in the woods for grouse and pheasant if it's a light and quick gun. The two 20-gauges listed may be better there, as those are probably sub-6lbs like your Churchill. It would be better if one of the chokes were a bit tighter, too.
For ducks the short chamber limits its usefulness to handloads only, but the lower price offsets that cost enough to keep it in the running. (this gun is why I asked about short shells in the reloading forum). There are a number of trade-ex guns with heavier proofs which would allow me to use regular old Kent Bismuth. It's all really going to come down to fit though.
I'm looking for a shooter to take hunting, so it has to fit neatly into either of the "duck" or "grouse" categories to be justifiable.
Very interesting... I'd like to know more about this. I always had it in my mind that this would be for minor tweaks only rather than anything major. Could one take a slightly cast off gun and bend it all the way to cast on without undue risk? Or would it be more of a slight-off to neutral - or - neutral to slightly-on sort of thing? Are there any visible qualities in the wood that one should look for that would help or hinder this process?
If bending easier than I thought, it would really expand my search. I've been trying to arrange my schedule to make a trip to Trade-ex to try on all of the guns for fit. Being a bit more flexible as to stock cast would make this less of a "cinderella" scenario.
For now, I've been looking at zoomed-in photos of the bottom of the guns and looking at how the screw holes line up. I have a note of the guns likely to be cast on or neutral based very roughly on that. Hopefully it can point us in the right direction to begin. (I have enough downtime during my long work related hotel stays to permit this new level of gun-nuttery).
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Yes, the "bespoke" culture seems to lend itself to finding a few here and there that might fit. As for the action, a right-handed top lever isn't really a problem. The right hand provides leverage against the left thumb pushing to the right to open it. I never found it awkward before. I find that I am tilting the gun sideways and pushing down on the lever, and catching the ejected empties in front of my stomach. Though maybe once I try a left-handed lever I'll never be able to go back.
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Well Northern Skies, you've been doing your homework! I don't want to get into a back and forth conversation on this thread which is for pictures of fine doubles and discussion regarding these guns so I'll leave it here.
In general, English 12 gauge game guns originally made for 2 1/2" ammo will range from 6 lb 6 oz to 6 lb 12 oz but can range from 6 pounds to seven pounds. Original 2 3/4 chambered guns will usually be 6 lb 12 oz to 7 lb 4 oz, occasionally a little more or less.
16 gauge game guns are usually around 6 lb or slightly more, 20 gauge 4-6 ounces lighter still.
Sleeved guns IF carefully done will have well regulated barrels that shoot to point of aim and balance correctly. Generally a near invisible join is an indication of a quality job that will perform satisfactorily. I have had a number of sleeved guns that performed just fine but I also know of some duds, many gunsmiths and even big makers like Westley Richards performed this service but I would not blindly trust a sleeved gun if obviously poorly done or if done on a basic low value gun. The process replaces unusable barrels with new tubes however the process is skilled labour intensive and today is not economical on most guns because the cost would exceed the value of the repaired gun. This process can put a valuable but unusable gun back into service but doesn't bring the value up to that of a rebarrelled gun or better yet, a fine original. As you noted, they can make a great gun for general use if not priced to cover the cost of the work as well as the gun.
The bending of stocks is another large subject. Obviously the wood in the wrist area and stock head must be sound with no cracks or repairs, straighter grain in this area is preferred. The wood can be moved a long way, from a heavy cast to the opposite heavy cast and drop can be bent as well. There is a risk those who do the work will not guarantee that the stock won't break in the process but they will also refuse to try on any they consider suspect. The guy who does this work for me has done about 200 without breaking one but he refused one of mine as well.
I hadn't taken a detailed look at the photos of that Powell like I have some of the others but I will and will P M you to discuss what I see and think. J.
In general, English 12 gauge game guns originally made for 2 1/2" ammo will range from 6 lb 6 oz to 6 lb 12 oz but can range from 6 pounds to seven pounds. Original 2 3/4 chambered guns will usually be 6 lb 12 oz to 7 lb 4 oz, occasionally a little more or less.
16 gauge game guns are usually around 6 lb or slightly more, 20 gauge 4-6 ounces lighter still.
Sleeved guns IF carefully done will have well regulated barrels that shoot to point of aim and balance correctly. Generally a near invisible join is an indication of a quality job that will perform satisfactorily. I have had a number of sleeved guns that performed just fine but I also know of some duds, many gunsmiths and even big makers like Westley Richards performed this service but I would not blindly trust a sleeved gun if obviously poorly done or if done on a basic low value gun. The process replaces unusable barrels with new tubes however the process is skilled labour intensive and today is not economical on most guns because the cost would exceed the value of the repaired gun. This process can put a valuable but unusable gun back into service but doesn't bring the value up to that of a rebarrelled gun or better yet, a fine original. As you noted, they can make a great gun for general use if not priced to cover the cost of the work as well as the gun.
The bending of stocks is another large subject. Obviously the wood in the wrist area and stock head must be sound with no cracks or repairs, straighter grain in this area is preferred. The wood can be moved a long way, from a heavy cast to the opposite heavy cast and drop can be bent as well. There is a risk those who do the work will not guarantee that the stock won't break in the process but they will also refuse to try on any they consider suspect. The guy who does this work for me has done about 200 without breaking one but he refused one of mine as well.
I hadn't taken a detailed look at the photos of that Powell like I have some of the others but I will and will P M you to discuss what I see and think. J.
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Pape did indeed have the first choke boring patent but it was Greener who put it to use and made it the norm apparently. The two men had quite a rivalry.
I think you are referring to the back action hammer Pape on the Trade ex site, I saw that one. The worst part I can see is the very shoddy recheckering job, it really ruins a guns appearance.
I'm actually referring to the one at Wanstalls. I called and asked about proof marks, etc., and the gentleman said he couldn't discern any legible marks where I asked. Unless he wasn't looking in the right place, that sounds really odd.
Time for another installment, another one from my collection that I offered for sale last year. Lots of interest but it's still here.
This is another shotgun from a maker best known for their magnificent rifles, a George Gibbs best quality 12 gauge sidelock from about the late 1880's ( their records were lost due to bombing in WW II). An outstanding gun, it will compare with anything made at the time, made on their own patent action which they also used to make many guns for other makers. 30" barrels with 2 5/8" chambers, perfect bores have had a light polish and are still well within original proof. Enjoy.
This is another shotgun from a maker best known for their magnificent rifles, a George Gibbs best quality 12 gauge sidelock from about the late 1880's ( their records were lost due to bombing in WW II). An outstanding gun, it will compare with anything made at the time, made on their own patent action which they also used to make many guns for other makers. 30" barrels with 2 5/8" chambers, perfect bores have had a light polish and are still well within original proof. Enjoy.
Falconflyer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Spectacular gun Ashcroft. And the interior of the case is in very nice condition, has it been restored?
