Falconflyer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Magnificent gun Cow Town Bill!
Let's see some pic's of your SxS's & O/U's
- Thread starter Win/64
- Start date
How on earth does one follow after such a perfect gun? That Purdey displays the epitome of late Victorian gun making and gun design. Get ready for a real drop in expectations, as I present some mutton dressed as lamb.
A Birmingham gun, marked “London”, again
The “London” address has always been the most desirable to have on a sporting gun. It speaks of wealth and prestige, and infers a degree of elitism that other addresses do not attain. Addresses a stone’s throw from posh members-only clubs, alongside shops catering to the upper echelons of a highly stratified society. For many gun makers, a London address is de rigeur, situated as closely as possible to their desired clientele, be they nobility, politicians, businessmen, officers or just wealthy sportsmen. In truth though, very few “London” guns were actually made in London, or built from parts made in London. The vast majority of component parts, and a great many of the guns that were retailed in London, were made in Birmingham. A London maker could order from a Birmingham supplier anything ranging from individual parts, to a fully finished gun engraved with the London maker’s name, address and serial number, and decorated to suit. Some London firms chose to perform most of their own work on the highest grades of guns, with lesser grades built entirely for them in Birmingham workshops. This seemed to be a better use of the more expensive London craftsmen, but if required, the small Gun Quarter workshops could put up ‘Best’ work as fine as any London firm, for a price.
Birmingham also made the guns sold throughout Britain, again supplying anything from parts to finished guns. It would have been tempting to exaggerate one’s business credentials, especially if it would help sell wares. Lately I’ve shown examples of guns marked “London” that were not made there. A spuriously London-marked gun was simply canny advertising, if outright untruthful. But then again, what do you call a Birmingham-made gun retailed by a London maker, with their name and address on the rib? At least you can argue that the London maker’s reputation is on the line with every gun that carries their name, and high standards and quality control had to be maintained.
Today’s gun presents what appears to be a white lie, a maker’s real name but with what may be a spurious London address. James Bott was born in 1826, and he established a business first at 8 Great Russell Street, Birmingham (date unknown), and in 1853 he set up as a gun maker at 67 Weaman Street (this corresponds well to having apprenticed at age 14, serving 7 years as apprentice, then 5-6 years as a journeyman, before opening his business). His was a successful gun making business, going through various address changes in the 1880s and 1890s, becoming James Bott & Son, and finally being sold to Joseph Bourne & Son in 1903. Bott probably supplied parts and guns to the trade, and he marketed guns under his own name – which he may have made, or ordered from others. The small-scale gun business was very convoluted in nature at the best of times.
The gun is a 12-bore, and it has no serial number. I’m guessing it was made in the mid- to later-1860s. The 29 15/16” damascus barrels have Birmingham proofs, and the top rib is signed “Patent Damascus JAs. Bott & Compy. Strand London.” Herein lies the problem, as there are no patent marks on the barrels or the gun, and there is no record of James Bott having an address in London at the time, never mind the fashionable Strand thoroughfare in Westminster, central London (though he did obtain a London address much later in 1890, at 38 Lime Street East in the Langbourn ward]). There are also no business records of a company, though it is possible that Bott used a London-based agent or partner, perhaps a jeweller or other trader who could move his goods. If he did so, there are no records or evidence of such an arrangement, and furthermore, that level of business was probably beyond the capacity of a small operation employing at most a handful of men. The fact that other Bott arms have been similarly marked (a James Bott pinfire revolver was recently sold at auction, and it carried a "J. BOTT & Co,, PATENT STRAND LONDON" barrel inscription). This suggests it was a general practice to augment his sales, or there is more to the Bott business than has been recorded so far. However, no London business directory has ever listed a “James Bott & Co.”, and if such a business had existed, it would have been widely advertised.
The gun has the ubiquitous double-bite screw grip action, and the back-action locks are unsigned. It has a handsomely engraved top strap and nicely shaped hammers, but is otherwise a standard-grade Birmingham pinfire without any remarkable features. The condition is poor and worn, with damaged and missing hammer screws, and the fore-end is missing its horn finial. The bores are pitted, and the gun weighs 7 lb 10 oz.
A Birmingham gun, marked “London”, again
The “London” address has always been the most desirable to have on a sporting gun. It speaks of wealth and prestige, and infers a degree of elitism that other addresses do not attain. Addresses a stone’s throw from posh members-only clubs, alongside shops catering to the upper echelons of a highly stratified society. For many gun makers, a London address is de rigeur, situated as closely as possible to their desired clientele, be they nobility, politicians, businessmen, officers or just wealthy sportsmen. In truth though, very few “London” guns were actually made in London, or built from parts made in London. The vast majority of component parts, and a great many of the guns that were retailed in London, were made in Birmingham. A London maker could order from a Birmingham supplier anything ranging from individual parts, to a fully finished gun engraved with the London maker’s name, address and serial number, and decorated to suit. Some London firms chose to perform most of their own work on the highest grades of guns, with lesser grades built entirely for them in Birmingham workshops. This seemed to be a better use of the more expensive London craftsmen, but if required, the small Gun Quarter workshops could put up ‘Best’ work as fine as any London firm, for a price.
Birmingham also made the guns sold throughout Britain, again supplying anything from parts to finished guns. It would have been tempting to exaggerate one’s business credentials, especially if it would help sell wares. Lately I’ve shown examples of guns marked “London” that were not made there. A spuriously London-marked gun was simply canny advertising, if outright untruthful. But then again, what do you call a Birmingham-made gun retailed by a London maker, with their name and address on the rib? At least you can argue that the London maker’s reputation is on the line with every gun that carries their name, and high standards and quality control had to be maintained.
Today’s gun presents what appears to be a white lie, a maker’s real name but with what may be a spurious London address. James Bott was born in 1826, and he established a business first at 8 Great Russell Street, Birmingham (date unknown), and in 1853 he set up as a gun maker at 67 Weaman Street (this corresponds well to having apprenticed at age 14, serving 7 years as apprentice, then 5-6 years as a journeyman, before opening his business). His was a successful gun making business, going through various address changes in the 1880s and 1890s, becoming James Bott & Son, and finally being sold to Joseph Bourne & Son in 1903. Bott probably supplied parts and guns to the trade, and he marketed guns under his own name – which he may have made, or ordered from others. The small-scale gun business was very convoluted in nature at the best of times.
The gun is a 12-bore, and it has no serial number. I’m guessing it was made in the mid- to later-1860s. The 29 15/16” damascus barrels have Birmingham proofs, and the top rib is signed “Patent Damascus JAs. Bott & Compy. Strand London.” Herein lies the problem, as there are no patent marks on the barrels or the gun, and there is no record of James Bott having an address in London at the time, never mind the fashionable Strand thoroughfare in Westminster, central London (though he did obtain a London address much later in 1890, at 38 Lime Street East in the Langbourn ward]). There are also no business records of a company, though it is possible that Bott used a London-based agent or partner, perhaps a jeweller or other trader who could move his goods. If he did so, there are no records or evidence of such an arrangement, and furthermore, that level of business was probably beyond the capacity of a small operation employing at most a handful of men. The fact that other Bott arms have been similarly marked (a James Bott pinfire revolver was recently sold at auction, and it carried a "J. BOTT & Co,, PATENT STRAND LONDON" barrel inscription). This suggests it was a general practice to augment his sales, or there is more to the Bott business than has been recorded so far. However, no London business directory has ever listed a “James Bott & Co.”, and if such a business had existed, it would have been widely advertised.
The gun has the ubiquitous double-bite screw grip action, and the back-action locks are unsigned. It has a handsomely engraved top strap and nicely shaped hammers, but is otherwise a standard-grade Birmingham pinfire without any remarkable features. The condition is poor and worn, with damaged and missing hammer screws, and the fore-end is missing its horn finial. The bores are pitted, and the gun weighs 7 lb 10 oz.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
While that Bott pinfire's condition may be poor, it is still a survivor!
I'm going to drop expectations down another notch. Here is a WW Greener I picked up a couple of months ago. It utilizes the Facile Princeps action. This gun was in need of some TLC as I believe it had been left neglected and forgotten in storage for years. The bores were dark but after a good cleaning they are restored to their former glory and are pit free. I re-blued the barrels. It had an ugly, ill fitting butt pad on it which I removed and replaced with a horn buttplate I made. The rear trigger didn't work. It turned out the ejector was hanging up causing an issue. I removed the ejectors and the gun functions fine. I repaired the ejectors but am waiting on new springs. After cleaning dirt and grime from the wood, I was pleasantly surprised at the condition. The checkering and overall condition is such that it does not warrant refinishing. So the ole girl has been brought back to life and will be in the field this fall.
I'm going to drop expectations down another notch. Here is a WW Greener I picked up a couple of months ago. It utilizes the Facile Princeps action. This gun was in need of some TLC as I believe it had been left neglected and forgotten in storage for years. The bores were dark but after a good cleaning they are restored to their former glory and are pit free. I re-blued the barrels. It had an ugly, ill fitting butt pad on it which I removed and replaced with a horn buttplate I made. The rear trigger didn't work. It turned out the ejector was hanging up causing an issue. I removed the ejectors and the gun functions fine. I repaired the ejectors but am waiting on new springs. After cleaning dirt and grime from the wood, I was pleasantly surprised at the condition. The checkering and overall condition is such that it does not warrant refinishing. So the ole girl has been brought back to life and will be in the field this fall.
What a great find!
Repairs, repairs and repairs.
Hugh Lumsden Snowie was born in 1806 in Aberdeen, Scotland. He was apprenticed to Charles Playfair at 56 Union Street and 94 Union Street, Aberdeen, from 1821 to 1827. He would have been Playfair’s first apprentice, as that was the year Charles Playfair first started his own gun making business. Playfair would later achieve much success, including obtaining a royal warrant (from Prince Albert), and co-founding with Thomas Bentley of Birmingham the firm of Bentley & Playfair. After his apprenticeship Snowie worked in London as a journeyman gun maker for about two years before moving in 1829 to Inverness to establish his own business. By 1851 he was recorded living at 89 Church Street, with his wife (Ann Mary), daughter (Mary Ann), and two sons (Thomas and William, who eventually apprenticed under their father). Hugh Snowie died in London in June 1879, and his sons continued the family firm. William Snowie's shooting agency and taxidermist business closed in about 1901, and Thomas Snowie's gun making business closed in about 1910.
Today’s gun has been heavily used, and it has undergone significant repair and maintenance work. It might even be a converted muzzle-loader, but I can’t be entirely sure. What is certain is that someone went to great lengths to keep it in working order. It is a 14-bore forward under-lever pinfire sporting gun by Hugh Snowie of Inverness, built for a left-handed shooter. It has the serial number 3277, and it was probably made around 1860 or earlier. The 29” damascus barrels have London proofs, and an unsigned top rib. The back-action locks are signed “H. Snowie”.
The gun is a single-bite screw grip action with forward-facing under-lever and assisted-opening stud, of the type Joseph Lang started making in 1853, possibly the design of Edwin Charles Hodges. The actioner’s initials are “S.B”, who I’ve not been able to trace. It could be that Samuel Brown of 12 Lench St., or Samuel Breedon of Washwood Heath, both Birmingham gun makers at the time, could have supplied a barrelled action or partly finished gun to Snowie, but that early in the development of breech-loaders there were not many who had the experience at duplicating Lang’s action – so it might remain a mystery. The under-lever swings out to the left, marking this a gun for a left-handed shooter. The gun is undoubtedly early, with a mechanical safety grip (a hold-over from the days of percussion), and a long butt plate tang (a style that soon disappeared in the breech-loading era). The gun has fences with raised ‘collars’, an attractive feature. The hammers have extended flanges, and overall the gun has well proportioned lines, weighing a light 6 lb 10 oz (it is a shame the 14-bore fell from fashion).
The story that begs to be heard is why it underwent so many repairs. Several action screws have been replaced, the assisted-opening stud is missing, the under-lever looks like a replacement, and the right-hand lock plate has an extra drilled hole. Removing the lock plate shows that a new, shorter mainspring was fitted, which required a new hole for the spring’s attachment pin. The gunsmith might have simply used a spring salvaged from another gun, but fitted it in a way whereby both hammers pulled with equal force, and at half- and full-#### the hammers still align perfectly. The gun has seen heavy use, the engraving is quite worn, and the bores are pitted. It was kept going long after someone else might have retired it from the shooting field, or returned it to the gunmaker to be scrapped for spare parts and iron. I wonder how many Red Grouse fell to this gun?
Hugh Lumsden Snowie was born in 1806 in Aberdeen, Scotland. He was apprenticed to Charles Playfair at 56 Union Street and 94 Union Street, Aberdeen, from 1821 to 1827. He would have been Playfair’s first apprentice, as that was the year Charles Playfair first started his own gun making business. Playfair would later achieve much success, including obtaining a royal warrant (from Prince Albert), and co-founding with Thomas Bentley of Birmingham the firm of Bentley & Playfair. After his apprenticeship Snowie worked in London as a journeyman gun maker for about two years before moving in 1829 to Inverness to establish his own business. By 1851 he was recorded living at 89 Church Street, with his wife (Ann Mary), daughter (Mary Ann), and two sons (Thomas and William, who eventually apprenticed under their father). Hugh Snowie died in London in June 1879, and his sons continued the family firm. William Snowie's shooting agency and taxidermist business closed in about 1901, and Thomas Snowie's gun making business closed in about 1910.
Today’s gun has been heavily used, and it has undergone significant repair and maintenance work. It might even be a converted muzzle-loader, but I can’t be entirely sure. What is certain is that someone went to great lengths to keep it in working order. It is a 14-bore forward under-lever pinfire sporting gun by Hugh Snowie of Inverness, built for a left-handed shooter. It has the serial number 3277, and it was probably made around 1860 or earlier. The 29” damascus barrels have London proofs, and an unsigned top rib. The back-action locks are signed “H. Snowie”.
The gun is a single-bite screw grip action with forward-facing under-lever and assisted-opening stud, of the type Joseph Lang started making in 1853, possibly the design of Edwin Charles Hodges. The actioner’s initials are “S.B”, who I’ve not been able to trace. It could be that Samuel Brown of 12 Lench St., or Samuel Breedon of Washwood Heath, both Birmingham gun makers at the time, could have supplied a barrelled action or partly finished gun to Snowie, but that early in the development of breech-loaders there were not many who had the experience at duplicating Lang’s action – so it might remain a mystery. The under-lever swings out to the left, marking this a gun for a left-handed shooter. The gun is undoubtedly early, with a mechanical safety grip (a hold-over from the days of percussion), and a long butt plate tang (a style that soon disappeared in the breech-loading era). The gun has fences with raised ‘collars’, an attractive feature. The hammers have extended flanges, and overall the gun has well proportioned lines, weighing a light 6 lb 10 oz (it is a shame the 14-bore fell from fashion).
The story that begs to be heard is why it underwent so many repairs. Several action screws have been replaced, the assisted-opening stud is missing, the under-lever looks like a replacement, and the right-hand lock plate has an extra drilled hole. Removing the lock plate shows that a new, shorter mainspring was fitted, which required a new hole for the spring’s attachment pin. The gunsmith might have simply used a spring salvaged from another gun, but fitted it in a way whereby both hammers pulled with equal force, and at half- and full-#### the hammers still align perfectly. The gun has seen heavy use, the engraving is quite worn, and the bores are pitted. It was kept going long after someone else might have retired it from the shooting field, or returned it to the gunmaker to be scrapped for spare parts and iron. I wonder how many Red Grouse fell to this gun?
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gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
That Snowie could sure reveal a lot of history if it could talk. It likely saw a lot of use by owners who couldn't afford multiple guns or just plain liked shooting it!
Pinfire, I sure like these highly stylized and wonderfully decorated long top straps on your pinfire guns, something I rarely run into on my later period centrefire guns. I wonder if the persistent use and multiple repairs to keep this gun working might be connected to the fact that it is a left handed gun? To left handed shooters of modest means this gun would seem like a gift from the gods.
No sunshine for taking pictures today, so I’m using last summer’s pictures. Today is less about the gun, and more about the details.
The Smith gun making business in London started with William Smith, who was apprenticed to John Joyner in 1766 and then to William Shepherd in 1771. He was later recorded as a gun lock maker in St James's in 1792, and St Pancras in 1800. In 1805 he traded as a gun maker at 34 Tottenham Court Road, moving in 1806 to 2 New Lisle Street. In 1817 William Smith was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to the Prince Regent, and he moved to 59 Princes Street, Leicester Square. In 1820 when the Prince Regent became King George IV he was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to the king, and the following year moved to 64 Princes Street. Smith had also been appointed Gunmaker to the Tsar Alexander I, Emperor of Russia, and to Maximilian I Joseph, King of Bavaria. This says a lot about the quality of Smith guns, and the regard in which they were held.
In 1825 William was succeeded by his son Samuel (1794-1855) and the name of the firm changed to Samuel Smith. In 1834 Samuel's brother, Charles, joined him and the firm became Samuel & Charles Smith. Between 1835 and 1837 they were appointed Gun Makers to His Majesty (William IV) and to the Duke of Gloucester. By 1855 both Samuel and Charles had died, and Samuel's two sons, also named Samuel and Charles, took over the firm. In 1867 Samuel (Jnr) patented a breech-loading action (patent No. 1075), which had the curious feature whereby half-cocking the right-hand hammer withdrew the barrel locking bolt. However, it is known only from an incomplete patent drawing, and no examples have ever surfaced. In 1870 the firm moved to 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket, until 1875 when the business closed and the Smith brothers emigrated to Australia.
The firm has tremendous history and pedigree, and Googling the name turns up exquisite examples of flint and percussion guns, and even a few pinfires. Like most makers of the pinfire period Samuel and Charles Smith appear to have offered different grades of guns, including some with patented actions from other makers. Today’s gun is a standard double-bite screw grip action by Samuel and Charles Smith of London, and serial number 6583 places it about 1864 in date. The 29 3/4” damascus barrels are signed “SamL & C Smith Princes Street Leicester Square London” on the top rib, and carry the usual London proofs. The barrel maker’s mark “H.S.” is still a mystery to me, but earlier percussion guns by the brothers also carry the same barrel maker’s mark. The gun has typical percussion-style fences, an extended top strap, and flat-sided hammers, all of no particular note – this was the entry-level pinfire gun of the mid-1860s, not much different from the offerings of most London and provincial makers. Where this gun becomes highly unusual is with the back-action lock plates. Look closely, the name inscriptions, “SamL& C Smith Princes St. London,” are inverted. This is different from other Smith pinfires I’ve been able to trace, which have normal inscriptions on the locks. The locks are pinned from the right, which is unusual but not unheard of. And after pouring through a mountain of books, and tapping the considerable knowledge base on British guns that resides in the far corners of the Internet, I can say with confidence that no one else has seen, or heard of, the like, which leads me to be equally confident in saying this was not an engraver’s mistake, but a special request from the client. What might remain a gun-lore mystery, is why?
Inside the lock plates are the lock maker’s mark, “N.B”, which I believe to be that of the lock maker Noah Butler of Darlaston Road, Wednesbury, Staffordshire (or an alternate nearby address, 4 King’s Hill, Wednesbury). Butler was born in 1827 or 1828, and his trade was a common one in Wednesbury and nearby Wolverhampton, sources of the best gun locks. These are quality locks with nicely shaped bridles, befitting a Smith gun.
The gun, however, is in a very sorry state, with a broken mainspring, parts missing, worn engraving and an overall tiredness. The bores are heavily pitted, and the gun, minus a few small parts, weighs 6 lb 10 oz.
The Smith gun making business in London started with William Smith, who was apprenticed to John Joyner in 1766 and then to William Shepherd in 1771. He was later recorded as a gun lock maker in St James's in 1792, and St Pancras in 1800. In 1805 he traded as a gun maker at 34 Tottenham Court Road, moving in 1806 to 2 New Lisle Street. In 1817 William Smith was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to the Prince Regent, and he moved to 59 Princes Street, Leicester Square. In 1820 when the Prince Regent became King George IV he was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to the king, and the following year moved to 64 Princes Street. Smith had also been appointed Gunmaker to the Tsar Alexander I, Emperor of Russia, and to Maximilian I Joseph, King of Bavaria. This says a lot about the quality of Smith guns, and the regard in which they were held.
In 1825 William was succeeded by his son Samuel (1794-1855) and the name of the firm changed to Samuel Smith. In 1834 Samuel's brother, Charles, joined him and the firm became Samuel & Charles Smith. Between 1835 and 1837 they were appointed Gun Makers to His Majesty (William IV) and to the Duke of Gloucester. By 1855 both Samuel and Charles had died, and Samuel's two sons, also named Samuel and Charles, took over the firm. In 1867 Samuel (Jnr) patented a breech-loading action (patent No. 1075), which had the curious feature whereby half-cocking the right-hand hammer withdrew the barrel locking bolt. However, it is known only from an incomplete patent drawing, and no examples have ever surfaced. In 1870 the firm moved to 18 Oxenden Street, Haymarket, until 1875 when the business closed and the Smith brothers emigrated to Australia.
The firm has tremendous history and pedigree, and Googling the name turns up exquisite examples of flint and percussion guns, and even a few pinfires. Like most makers of the pinfire period Samuel and Charles Smith appear to have offered different grades of guns, including some with patented actions from other makers. Today’s gun is a standard double-bite screw grip action by Samuel and Charles Smith of London, and serial number 6583 places it about 1864 in date. The 29 3/4” damascus barrels are signed “SamL & C Smith Princes Street Leicester Square London” on the top rib, and carry the usual London proofs. The barrel maker’s mark “H.S.” is still a mystery to me, but earlier percussion guns by the brothers also carry the same barrel maker’s mark. The gun has typical percussion-style fences, an extended top strap, and flat-sided hammers, all of no particular note – this was the entry-level pinfire gun of the mid-1860s, not much different from the offerings of most London and provincial makers. Where this gun becomes highly unusual is with the back-action lock plates. Look closely, the name inscriptions, “SamL& C Smith Princes St. London,” are inverted. This is different from other Smith pinfires I’ve been able to trace, which have normal inscriptions on the locks. The locks are pinned from the right, which is unusual but not unheard of. And after pouring through a mountain of books, and tapping the considerable knowledge base on British guns that resides in the far corners of the Internet, I can say with confidence that no one else has seen, or heard of, the like, which leads me to be equally confident in saying this was not an engraver’s mistake, but a special request from the client. What might remain a gun-lore mystery, is why?
Inside the lock plates are the lock maker’s mark, “N.B”, which I believe to be that of the lock maker Noah Butler of Darlaston Road, Wednesbury, Staffordshire (or an alternate nearby address, 4 King’s Hill, Wednesbury). Butler was born in 1827 or 1828, and his trade was a common one in Wednesbury and nearby Wolverhampton, sources of the best gun locks. These are quality locks with nicely shaped bridles, befitting a Smith gun.
The gun, however, is in a very sorry state, with a broken mainspring, parts missing, worn engraving and an overall tiredness. The bores are heavily pitted, and the gun, minus a few small parts, weighs 6 lb 10 oz.
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Provincial, but with London family connections
Jabez Bloxham Welch was born in 1786 in Banbury, an Oxfordshire market town located in between Birmingham and London. He was recorded as a gun maker in 1829 in Butchers Row, Banbury. By the 1851 census he was a widower, living with his nephew Thomas Julian Watkins (born 1821 in Leighton Buzzard), also listed as a gun maker. Welch retired in 1852 and Thomas Watkins took over the business. He married Eliza Mortimer (a daughter of one of the famous Mortimer gunmaking families in London), and in 1856 they had a son named Thomas Mortimer Watkins. In 1857 the business moved to 75 High Street. [Of interest, at the time of the 1861 census Eliza and her son Thomas Mortimer were recorded visiting with the London gun maker William Blanch and his wife Madaline at 29 Gracechurch Street; the Blanch gunmaking family was also interconnected with the Mortimer gunmaking family.] In 1899 Thomas Mortimer Watkins took over the business, and around 1900 the name changed to Watkins & Co. By 1928 Arthur E Ringwood took over the firm, and the business ceased to trade when he died in 1956.
Today’s gun is a 12-bore double-bite screw grip rotary under-lever pinfire sporting gun by Thomas Julian Watkins of Banbury, and it has no serial number. The 29 7/8” damascus barrels have London proofs, a maker’s mark ‘Z’, and the breech ends have starburst detailing at the pinfire apertures. The back-action locks are signed “T J’ Watkins” and are decorated with dogs, and the action bar has game scene engraving within ovals on each side, all of which is quite attractive. The fences have raised collars, the hammers are nicely rounded and with flanged noses, the action bar is strengthened with a radius, and the under-lever fully wraps around the trigger guard bow. Without records it is difficult to date a gun, but by the various features it looks to be mid- to late-1860s in build. This was a quality if plain-actioned gun, a fine offering from a provincial maker known to the London gun making community. The bores have light pitting at the breech, and the gun weighs 7 lb 2 oz.
Jabez Bloxham Welch was born in 1786 in Banbury, an Oxfordshire market town located in between Birmingham and London. He was recorded as a gun maker in 1829 in Butchers Row, Banbury. By the 1851 census he was a widower, living with his nephew Thomas Julian Watkins (born 1821 in Leighton Buzzard), also listed as a gun maker. Welch retired in 1852 and Thomas Watkins took over the business. He married Eliza Mortimer (a daughter of one of the famous Mortimer gunmaking families in London), and in 1856 they had a son named Thomas Mortimer Watkins. In 1857 the business moved to 75 High Street. [Of interest, at the time of the 1861 census Eliza and her son Thomas Mortimer were recorded visiting with the London gun maker William Blanch and his wife Madaline at 29 Gracechurch Street; the Blanch gunmaking family was also interconnected with the Mortimer gunmaking family.] In 1899 Thomas Mortimer Watkins took over the business, and around 1900 the name changed to Watkins & Co. By 1928 Arthur E Ringwood took over the firm, and the business ceased to trade when he died in 1956.
Today’s gun is a 12-bore double-bite screw grip rotary under-lever pinfire sporting gun by Thomas Julian Watkins of Banbury, and it has no serial number. The 29 7/8” damascus barrels have London proofs, a maker’s mark ‘Z’, and the breech ends have starburst detailing at the pinfire apertures. The back-action locks are signed “T J’ Watkins” and are decorated with dogs, and the action bar has game scene engraving within ovals on each side, all of which is quite attractive. The fences have raised collars, the hammers are nicely rounded and with flanged noses, the action bar is strengthened with a radius, and the under-lever fully wraps around the trigger guard bow. Without records it is difficult to date a gun, but by the various features it looks to be mid- to late-1860s in build. This was a quality if plain-actioned gun, a fine offering from a provincial maker known to the London gun making community. The bores have light pitting at the breech, and the gun weighs 7 lb 2 oz.
Here's another gun to help pass the time, a distraction from thinking about just how long we are going to be 'social distancing'.
British, but not Britain. British-ish?
You learn something new every day. Like why I couldn’t find any reference to John William Hunt in any reference work of British gun makers, a maker who operated in St. Helier, Jersey, in the Channel Islands. It turns out the Channel Islands (the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey, and a number of uninhabited islets), located off the coast of Normandy, France, are not considered part of the United Kingdom at all, though these islands are held by the monarch of the United Kingdom. These crown dependencies are island territories that are self-governing possessions of the crown. Jersey, located just 12 nautical miles off the coast, was part of the Duchy of Normandy, whose dukes went on to become kings of England from 1066. After England lost Normandy in the 13th century and the ducal title surrendered to France, Jersey and the other Channel Islands remained attached to the English crown. Jersey has enjoyed self-government since the division of the Duchy of Normandy in 1204.
The 18th century was a period of political tension between Britain and France as the two nations clashed as their ambitions grew, and the Channel Islands were caught up in the turmoil. Then, after the Napoleonic wars (1803–1815), the number of English-speaking soldiers stationed on the island and the number of retired officers and English-speaking labourers who came to the islands in the 1820s led to the island gradually moving towards an English-speaking culture. The population of Jersey rose from 47,544 in 1841 to 56,078 in 1861, largely due to agricultural development and industries such as ship-building and commodities such as cider and wool, and later the famous Jersey cattle. With wealth comes leisure, and for that, the services of sporting gun makers are needed!
The gun maker P. Vincent established his business in 1833 at Royal Square, St Helier, Jersey. In 1847 H. Vincent took over the business and moved to Parade, St Helier. In 1855 his sons joined the firm and the name changed to H. Vincent & Sons. In 1858 the business moved to 23 Halkett Place, and in 1861 to 7 Saville Street. In 1863 H. Vincent was recorded at 4 Hampton Place, Parade, St Helier, but not after that year. It would have been around this time that John William Hunt took over the business from H Vincent & Sons (though one of Hunt’s advertisements mentions taking over the business somewhat earlier, in 1860). In 1889 John Hunt was recorded as a gun maker at 69 King Street and 26 Broad Street, and he was also armourer to the Jersey National Rifle Association. It is interesting to note that early local advertisements for the firm appear in both English and French, a reflection of the mix of cultures on the island. Unfortunately, reference works on British gun makers only list those recorded within the territory of the United Kingdom, and therefore gun makers and gunsmiths operating in the crown dependencies have been excluded and there is very little in the way of information on them.
The gun today is a 12-bore double-bite screw-grip rotary under-lever pinfire sporting gun signed John William Hunt of St. Helier, Jersey, with no serial number. The 30 1/16” damascus barrels have Birmingham proofs and the maker’s marks “C.N” and “HB” (the latter is possibly Henry Bayliss or Henry Boot, both Birmingham barrel makers at the time). There is also the mark “J.M” on the barrel flats. These marks may identify who actually built the gun for John Hunt, as this is a typical utilitarian low-grade pinfire Birmingham built for the trade in the late-1860s – more likely swung by a farmer than a sportsman. From the estimated age the gun may have been retailed from the 4 Hampton Place, Parade, St Helier, address. The top rib is simply marked “J. Hunt Jersey”, and the back-action locks are signed “J. Hunt”. The gun is in poor, worn-out condition, with evidence of old repairs and part replacements. A curious modification is a simple V notch sight added between the fences, suggesting the gun was used at some point for shooting ball. As there are no large game species on Jersey (I'm discounting the mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses last hunted on Jersey during the Ice Age), this might have been added to the gun after it left the island. I have never seen this kind of modification on any another pinfire.
British, but not Britain. British-ish?
You learn something new every day. Like why I couldn’t find any reference to John William Hunt in any reference work of British gun makers, a maker who operated in St. Helier, Jersey, in the Channel Islands. It turns out the Channel Islands (the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey, and a number of uninhabited islets), located off the coast of Normandy, France, are not considered part of the United Kingdom at all, though these islands are held by the monarch of the United Kingdom. These crown dependencies are island territories that are self-governing possessions of the crown. Jersey, located just 12 nautical miles off the coast, was part of the Duchy of Normandy, whose dukes went on to become kings of England from 1066. After England lost Normandy in the 13th century and the ducal title surrendered to France, Jersey and the other Channel Islands remained attached to the English crown. Jersey has enjoyed self-government since the division of the Duchy of Normandy in 1204.
The 18th century was a period of political tension between Britain and France as the two nations clashed as their ambitions grew, and the Channel Islands were caught up in the turmoil. Then, after the Napoleonic wars (1803–1815), the number of English-speaking soldiers stationed on the island and the number of retired officers and English-speaking labourers who came to the islands in the 1820s led to the island gradually moving towards an English-speaking culture. The population of Jersey rose from 47,544 in 1841 to 56,078 in 1861, largely due to agricultural development and industries such as ship-building and commodities such as cider and wool, and later the famous Jersey cattle. With wealth comes leisure, and for that, the services of sporting gun makers are needed!
The gun maker P. Vincent established his business in 1833 at Royal Square, St Helier, Jersey. In 1847 H. Vincent took over the business and moved to Parade, St Helier. In 1855 his sons joined the firm and the name changed to H. Vincent & Sons. In 1858 the business moved to 23 Halkett Place, and in 1861 to 7 Saville Street. In 1863 H. Vincent was recorded at 4 Hampton Place, Parade, St Helier, but not after that year. It would have been around this time that John William Hunt took over the business from H Vincent & Sons (though one of Hunt’s advertisements mentions taking over the business somewhat earlier, in 1860). In 1889 John Hunt was recorded as a gun maker at 69 King Street and 26 Broad Street, and he was also armourer to the Jersey National Rifle Association. It is interesting to note that early local advertisements for the firm appear in both English and French, a reflection of the mix of cultures on the island. Unfortunately, reference works on British gun makers only list those recorded within the territory of the United Kingdom, and therefore gun makers and gunsmiths operating in the crown dependencies have been excluded and there is very little in the way of information on them.
The gun today is a 12-bore double-bite screw-grip rotary under-lever pinfire sporting gun signed John William Hunt of St. Helier, Jersey, with no serial number. The 30 1/16” damascus barrels have Birmingham proofs and the maker’s marks “C.N” and “HB” (the latter is possibly Henry Bayliss or Henry Boot, both Birmingham barrel makers at the time). There is also the mark “J.M” on the barrel flats. These marks may identify who actually built the gun for John Hunt, as this is a typical utilitarian low-grade pinfire Birmingham built for the trade in the late-1860s – more likely swung by a farmer than a sportsman. From the estimated age the gun may have been retailed from the 4 Hampton Place, Parade, St Helier, address. The top rib is simply marked “J. Hunt Jersey”, and the back-action locks are signed “J. Hunt”. The gun is in poor, worn-out condition, with evidence of old repairs and part replacements. A curious modification is a simple V notch sight added between the fences, suggesting the gun was used at some point for shooting ball. As there are no large game species on Jersey (I'm discounting the mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses last hunted on Jersey during the Ice Age), this might have been added to the gun after it left the island. I have never seen this kind of modification on any another pinfire.
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MuskokaJoe, I'm glad you're enjoying the posts, and thanks for the kind suggestion. The posts should give a little idea of what will be in my upcoming book on the British pinfire game gun, which will have a complete history of how the pinfire originated and came to Britain and how it started a veritable revolution in sporting gun making, as well as detailed accounts of the guns themselves. I've put more than 25 years of research and collecting into this, and I'm hoping to be finished in the next year or two. Mind, with this coronavirus business, I'm spending a lot more time on it, and I have a strong motivation to get it done before I get infected! While I know interest in pinfires is not exactly high, to say the least, it is nonetheless an opportunity to appreciate Victorian double-gun making and to appreciate the historical origins of our hunting guns today.
I am nearing the run of these daily posts, just a few more to go, then I'll be back to focusing on the book.
Fascinating history on the channel islands and gunmaking there. I wonder if this Hunt gun acquired the sight as a result of being pressed into service for the Home Guard during the war? Or perhaps in a defensive role as a ball gun in an earlier conflict?
I guess I'm slowing down now. These next two are recent acquisitions, so I haven't had the time to research them properly - but you have to start somewhere. Tomorrow is another store-gun (with an interesting history), and I'll finish up on Saturday with a Westley Richards. But you should know I've kept a few pinfires hidden away for now, as I'm still hoping there will be a 6th Annual Double Gun Classic sometime this year, and I'm "keeping my powder dry" for that one. So many fabulous guns turn up at that event!
The Webley name is a famous one in gun making, and the last shotgun carrying the Webley name was produced in 1991. Today's gun is a much earlier one, a dual-fire, which I’m very pleased to have recently acquired (thank you, you know who you are).
Philip Webley was apprenticed in 1827 at the age of 14 to William Ryan at William Ryan & Son, 32 Whittall Street, in Birmingham. That business had been started in 1783 by Benjamin Watson in Catherine Street, the original name for Whittall Street. In 1813 William Ryan helped fund the building of the "Gun Barrel Proof House of the Town of Birmingham". Ryan was a member of the proof house governing body, and later became a Guardian of the Proof House (his business would eventually become Rowland Watson, and Thomas Wild & Co). After his apprenticeship ended in 1834, Philip Webley and his brother James established a partnership as percussioners, lock filers and gun makers at 7 Weaman Street, in the old premises of William Davis. William Davis was born in Birmingham in 1790 and was apprenticed in the gun trade at the age of nine. In 1806 he joined the army and served in the Peninsular Wars and at Waterloo, and in 1817 he returned to Birmingham and established his own business as a gun implement maker, mould and tool maker at 7 Weaman Street. Davis died in 1831, and the business was continued by his widow, Sarah, and his daughter, Caroline, at 84 Weaman Street. Philip Webley married Caroline in 1838, and they lived at that address.
In 1853 Philip Webley obtained a patent (No. 335) for a hinged revolver, followed by patent No. 2127 for an improvement. This percussion cap-and-ball revolver was known as the "Longspur", and though faster to load than the Colt, it was more expensive. In 1859 Thomas William, aged 21, was made a partner in the firm and the name changed to P Webley & Son, described as "Gun and Pistol Makers and Patent Revolving Pistol Makers", for Philip Webley's patent. Philip focussed on his revolvers, and Thomas managed the shotgun side of the business. In 1863 and 1864 the firm's address was given as 83-84 Weaman Street, but from late 1864 to 1875 their address was 84 Weaman Street. On 4 August 1865 Thomas William Webley took out a provisional patent No.2030 for a centre-fire cartridge with a dummy pin which acted as a loaded indicator, and for conversions of pinfire guns and revolvers to centre-fire, though very little is known about this patent and what these conversions might have looked like. In 1866 Thomas William Webley patented a spring assisted rotary under-lever, patent No. 3022. In 1867 the firm made the double-action .442 revolver adopted by the Royal Irish Constabulary, and in 1869 Thomas William Webley became a Guardian of the Birmingham Proof House.
It was around this time this gun was made. It is a 12-bore double-bite screw-grip rotary under-lever dual pinfire-centrefire gun by Philip Webley & Son of 84 Weaman Street, Birmingham, serial number 1999. This tired-looking gun has over-bored chambers, and it may possibly have been made to use with Thomas William Webley’s centre-fire/pin cartridge adapters described in patent No. 2030 of 1865. I think it was originally built as a dual-fire gun, capable of firing both pinfire and centre-fire cartridges, rather than an after-market conversion, as the extractor acts on a fixed projection on the hinge pin. It would seem an over-complication to re-build the gun just for an extractor, as other designs used in after-market conversions are much simpler to accommodate. The two-piece vertical-and-horizontal strikers, missing in this example, would have been similar to Thomas George Sylven’s patent No. 806 of 1866, and the chamber over-boring remains a mystery. I’ve never encountered another Webley pinfire with which to compare, and the only illustration I’ve been able to trace is of Thomas Webley’s snap-action underlever, in a 20 January 1994 issue of Shooting Times (this weekly British sportsman’s magazine was first published in September 1882, and it has not missed a single edition since – despite several wars getting in the way, demonstrating how seriously the Brits take their shooting sports – though it is now a monthly publication, available in print and digital).
As is often the case with pinfires, the condition is 'tired and neglected'. The 26 5/8” damascus barrels (likely shortened) carry Birmingham proofs. There is no visible name and address on rib, and the back-action locks are signed “P. Webley & Son”. The left hammer screw has been replaced, the left mainspring is a replacement, and the two-part strikers are missing. The gun has minimal border and foliate scroll engraving, and other than the dual-fire feature, it is a very standard and inexpensive Birmingham gun. The bores are pitted and the gun, missing a few parts, weighs 6 lb 14 oz.
This is what the original dual-fire strikers might have looked like:
The Webley name is a famous one in gun making, and the last shotgun carrying the Webley name was produced in 1991. Today's gun is a much earlier one, a dual-fire, which I’m very pleased to have recently acquired (thank you, you know who you are).
Philip Webley was apprenticed in 1827 at the age of 14 to William Ryan at William Ryan & Son, 32 Whittall Street, in Birmingham. That business had been started in 1783 by Benjamin Watson in Catherine Street, the original name for Whittall Street. In 1813 William Ryan helped fund the building of the "Gun Barrel Proof House of the Town of Birmingham". Ryan was a member of the proof house governing body, and later became a Guardian of the Proof House (his business would eventually become Rowland Watson, and Thomas Wild & Co). After his apprenticeship ended in 1834, Philip Webley and his brother James established a partnership as percussioners, lock filers and gun makers at 7 Weaman Street, in the old premises of William Davis. William Davis was born in Birmingham in 1790 and was apprenticed in the gun trade at the age of nine. In 1806 he joined the army and served in the Peninsular Wars and at Waterloo, and in 1817 he returned to Birmingham and established his own business as a gun implement maker, mould and tool maker at 7 Weaman Street. Davis died in 1831, and the business was continued by his widow, Sarah, and his daughter, Caroline, at 84 Weaman Street. Philip Webley married Caroline in 1838, and they lived at that address.
In 1853 Philip Webley obtained a patent (No. 335) for a hinged revolver, followed by patent No. 2127 for an improvement. This percussion cap-and-ball revolver was known as the "Longspur", and though faster to load than the Colt, it was more expensive. In 1859 Thomas William, aged 21, was made a partner in the firm and the name changed to P Webley & Son, described as "Gun and Pistol Makers and Patent Revolving Pistol Makers", for Philip Webley's patent. Philip focussed on his revolvers, and Thomas managed the shotgun side of the business. In 1863 and 1864 the firm's address was given as 83-84 Weaman Street, but from late 1864 to 1875 their address was 84 Weaman Street. On 4 August 1865 Thomas William Webley took out a provisional patent No.2030 for a centre-fire cartridge with a dummy pin which acted as a loaded indicator, and for conversions of pinfire guns and revolvers to centre-fire, though very little is known about this patent and what these conversions might have looked like. In 1866 Thomas William Webley patented a spring assisted rotary under-lever, patent No. 3022. In 1867 the firm made the double-action .442 revolver adopted by the Royal Irish Constabulary, and in 1869 Thomas William Webley became a Guardian of the Birmingham Proof House.
It was around this time this gun was made. It is a 12-bore double-bite screw-grip rotary under-lever dual pinfire-centrefire gun by Philip Webley & Son of 84 Weaman Street, Birmingham, serial number 1999. This tired-looking gun has over-bored chambers, and it may possibly have been made to use with Thomas William Webley’s centre-fire/pin cartridge adapters described in patent No. 2030 of 1865. I think it was originally built as a dual-fire gun, capable of firing both pinfire and centre-fire cartridges, rather than an after-market conversion, as the extractor acts on a fixed projection on the hinge pin. It would seem an over-complication to re-build the gun just for an extractor, as other designs used in after-market conversions are much simpler to accommodate. The two-piece vertical-and-horizontal strikers, missing in this example, would have been similar to Thomas George Sylven’s patent No. 806 of 1866, and the chamber over-boring remains a mystery. I’ve never encountered another Webley pinfire with which to compare, and the only illustration I’ve been able to trace is of Thomas Webley’s snap-action underlever, in a 20 January 1994 issue of Shooting Times (this weekly British sportsman’s magazine was first published in September 1882, and it has not missed a single edition since – despite several wars getting in the way, demonstrating how seriously the Brits take their shooting sports – though it is now a monthly publication, available in print and digital).
As is often the case with pinfires, the condition is 'tired and neglected'. The 26 5/8” damascus barrels (likely shortened) carry Birmingham proofs. There is no visible name and address on rib, and the back-action locks are signed “P. Webley & Son”. The left hammer screw has been replaced, the left mainspring is a replacement, and the two-part strikers are missing. The gun has minimal border and foliate scroll engraving, and other than the dual-fire feature, it is a very standard and inexpensive Birmingham gun. The bores are pitted and the gun, missing a few parts, weighs 6 lb 14 oz.
This is what the original dual-fire strikers might have looked like:
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So last year in this thread I did an haphazard series on the restoration/restocking of my Remington 1894 BE. Thank God it turned out well because I started long before I knew what the finished product would be like. Many, many thanks to Chris Dawe for his exemplary work on that gun (and others).
Seeing as I get about one gun a year completed, I thought I would do something similar again. A brief photo essay over time (probably the next two months) that documents the work involved in turning another of these sows ears into a silk purse.
This gun came to my attention in the most unusual way. As often happens, someone posted here along the lines of "I just got grandpappy's double barrel shotgun.....what's it worth?" No photo, no nothing. So it got the usual responses......"photos please". Soon the OP put up a pic of a gun and said "It's just like this" and it was a picture of a Prussian made Diamond Quality Charles Daly made by H.A. Lindner. I posted and said "really? Your gun is like that?" He said...."well, not exactly but it does have two barrels like that gun".
Once I stopped laughing it occurred to me to look more closely at the photo he had posted. And I was able to determine he had lifted the photo from a gun seller's website. Sure enough, it was for sale. And at a price that meant I had to buy it. Soon it was on it's way to me.
Without getting too deep into it right now (saving more for later) the guns made by H.A. Lindner for Charles Daly between about 1885 and 1914 take a back seat to no maker in quality. Easily the equal of the best of Purdey, Boss or H & H, unlike many German guns, they were made expressly for the American market and so have much more in common with Brit and American guns of the day, in terms of style, than a lot of the Germanic guns from back then.
The gun was below normal market rates because it had a significant dent across both barrels. Other than that, it looked pretty good. Not perfect but good enough to make the bet. Here are some of the original pics from the dealer.
Seeing as I get about one gun a year completed, I thought I would do something similar again. A brief photo essay over time (probably the next two months) that documents the work involved in turning another of these sows ears into a silk purse.
This gun came to my attention in the most unusual way. As often happens, someone posted here along the lines of "I just got grandpappy's double barrel shotgun.....what's it worth?" No photo, no nothing. So it got the usual responses......"photos please". Soon the OP put up a pic of a gun and said "It's just like this" and it was a picture of a Prussian made Diamond Quality Charles Daly made by H.A. Lindner. I posted and said "really? Your gun is like that?" He said...."well, not exactly but it does have two barrels like that gun".
Once I stopped laughing it occurred to me to look more closely at the photo he had posted. And I was able to determine he had lifted the photo from a gun seller's website. Sure enough, it was for sale. And at a price that meant I had to buy it. Soon it was on it's way to me.
Without getting too deep into it right now (saving more for later) the guns made by H.A. Lindner for Charles Daly between about 1885 and 1914 take a back seat to no maker in quality. Easily the equal of the best of Purdey, Boss or H & H, unlike many German guns, they were made expressly for the American market and so have much more in common with Brit and American guns of the day, in terms of style, than a lot of the Germanic guns from back then.
The gun was below normal market rates because it had a significant dent across both barrels. Other than that, it looked pretty good. Not perfect but good enough to make the bet. Here are some of the original pics from the dealer.
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As I mentioned, when I bought the gun, I knew it had a significant dent across both the barrels. A door slam or something that got them both. After consulting with a highly skilled gunsmith, we decided the risk/cost equation was still worth it. It was also missing the ebony forend tip. Would have preferred it was there but not a deal breaker by any means.
However when I received the gun, despite being told it was in "good working order" but for the barrel dent, I found it had a broken ejector rod. A few brief emails back and forth with the vendor, a gun shop, resulted in the hoped-for response. A significant amount of the purchase price was refunded to cover the cost of a high quality repair of the ejectors by a smith who knew what he was doing. A very fair outcome in my opinion. An offer to return for full refund was also made and left as my choice. Joe Salter, the retailer deserves high marks for the way they handled what was, in my opinion, an honest mistake.
Upon receipt of the gun I shouldered it and thought I had bought a 30" barrels 6 3/4 pound 12 gauge. It handled like a dream. I was shocked when I got it on the scale and found it actually was 7 pounds 8 ounces. It was deceptively heavy.....feels and handles like a gun a pound lighter. It was choked unbelievably tight.....048 and .048. This was a long range duck gun. The stock dimensions were near perfect for me. LOP 14 1/4". DAH 2 1/4" DAC 1 3/8".
Here are some pics that highlight the original condition I received it in. Clearly there would be some serious work to be done in a number of areas. Work on the barrels began long before anything else because those need to be made right before expending more money. If they couldn't be fixed, the whole project would be in jeopardy.
However when I received the gun, despite being told it was in "good working order" but for the barrel dent, I found it had a broken ejector rod. A few brief emails back and forth with the vendor, a gun shop, resulted in the hoped-for response. A significant amount of the purchase price was refunded to cover the cost of a high quality repair of the ejectors by a smith who knew what he was doing. A very fair outcome in my opinion. An offer to return for full refund was also made and left as my choice. Joe Salter, the retailer deserves high marks for the way they handled what was, in my opinion, an honest mistake.
Upon receipt of the gun I shouldered it and thought I had bought a 30" barrels 6 3/4 pound 12 gauge. It handled like a dream. I was shocked when I got it on the scale and found it actually was 7 pounds 8 ounces. It was deceptively heavy.....feels and handles like a gun a pound lighter. It was choked unbelievably tight.....048 and .048. This was a long range duck gun. The stock dimensions were near perfect for me. LOP 14 1/4". DAH 2 1/4" DAC 1 3/8".
Here are some pics that highlight the original condition I received it in. Clearly there would be some serious work to be done in a number of areas. Work on the barrels began long before anything else because those need to be made right before expending more money. If they couldn't be fixed, the whole project would be in jeopardy.
