Londonshooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Nice pair of Verney-Carrons, Raymond. I'm liking the triggers!
Let's see some pic's of your SxS's & O/U's
- Thread starter Win/64
- Start date
Londonshooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
There is no 'if'
Haha. I nearly posted that for you John.
Icemanrain
New member
from my long living town.
the spank
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Planet Earth Wearing My Tinfoil Hat
This is a great watch. I really enjoy the videos put out by this fellow. There is some amazing pieces in this auction and some very good information on firearms quality and builds.
https://youtu.be/bophhp8UH8c
https://youtu.be/bophhp8UH8c
It has been a while since I've posted, so here goes.
One of the many reasons I am interested in mid-Victorian British gunmaking is the remarkable ingenuity and creativity on display. Everything we take for granted in modern break-open shotguns appeared then, from centre-fire cartridges to extractors and ejectors, to choke-boring and the numerous action types that settled into the top lever and sliding underbolt. But though all of these are standard today to the point of not being given a second thought, the best ideas were not necessarily apparent then.
There are reasons for this. Shooters did not change guns easily; they were expensive, and once you found a gun that shot well, you stuck with it. My research into the writings of the day has shown me that back then, the barrels (and their shooting qualities) counted for 99% of a gun's perceived value – with the rest being the gun's action, decoration, and stock figure if these were considered at all. Actions were judged on their strength, ease of use, and potential for failing at inopportune moments, not their ingenuity. Quality was generally taken for granted, and guns of a given price tended to be equal in build and finish. No one had a monopoly on quality; for the most part, the various makers in places like London and Birmingham shared the same outworkers. Parts often came from the same sources, be they barrel tubes, locks etc. Inventiveness paid off in patented designs that could be promoted by word-of-mouth, patronage, or print advertising. And even then, such designs were not necessarily exclusive, as one maker could use another's design and pay a royalty. Common then, not so much now. Try going into a Ford dealership and asking them to supply their product but with a Honda engine…
So, with slow product turnover, ideas and designs did not radiate quickly. Patents could be maintained for many years and renewed. The gunmaking business (and it was a business, just as it is today) gradually gravitated towards easy-to-make, reliable designs to squeeze the most profit. The boxlock double gun is the epitome of this evolution. The action was invented in 1875 by William Anson, foreman of Westley Richards' gun action department, and John Deeley, the managing director of Westley Richards. Add to this a top lever, patented by William Middleditch Scott in 1865, which moves a spindle and cam. When rotated, it withdraws a horizontally sliding bolt that unlocks the barrels, allowing the gun to open. For the sliding bolt, two slots (or bites) were found to be far structurally sounder than a single one, with one slot closer to the hinge and the other close to the breech face. This latter invention by James Purdey dates from 1863, and the patent for it expired in 1877, explaining why almost all boxlocks made after this date have this locking mechanism.
The story of the Purdey sliding underbolt is intrinsically linked to the evolution of the pin-fire game gun.
The Purdey gunmaking family line started in the 1700s. The founder of the firm we know today, James Purdey (the Elder), was born in 1784 to a gunmaking father, who had learned the trade from his father, having moved from Scotland around 1690. In 1798 the London gunmaker Thomas Keck Hutchinson took on 14-year-old James as an apprentice for seven years. In 1805 Purdey began work as a stocker for Joseph Manton, and in 1808 he went to work as a stocker and lock filer for the Forsyth Patent Gun Co. On 31 December 1812, James Purdey became a Freeman of the Gunmakers Company, and in 1816 he set up a shop and workshop with an apprentice at 4 Princes Street, Leicester Square. Around 1820 the firm became a member of The Society of Master Gunmakers of Westminster. At this time, Purdey made guns under his name and for other gunmakers, notably Joseph Lang and Charles Lancaster. Purdey also ran a good business in second-hand guns. In 1826 the business moved to Oxford Street. In 1838 Queen Victoria started buying guns from Purdey.
In 1843 James Purdey took on his son, James, as an apprentice. In 1853 James (the Elder) retired, and his son, age 29 (and known since as James the Younger), took over the business. In 1857 Purdey built its first pin-fire gun, but very few were made. These would have been made according to Joseph Lang's design, with a short forward-facing underlever and a single-bite attachment. In 1860 James Purdey (the Younger) became a Freeman of the Gunmakers Company and bought the business outright. In 1861 the firm made 41 pin-fires, all built on sliding-barrel actions from the Bastin Brothers of Hermalle-sous-Argenteau, Liège, Belgium. The actions were purchased in-the-white and made into guns at the Oxford Street premises. Also, in 1861, James took out the first Purdey patent for a pin-fire cartridge turnover machine, the first genuinely effective design.
Then, in May 1863, Purdey obtained patent No. 1104 for a pin-fire breech-loader with a sliding bolt in the action bar. The bolt was operated by a long under-lever hinged at the front, which was grasped through a wide bifurcated trigger guard; both the bolt and lever were spring tensioned. This is the famous Purdey double bolt, correctly known as the "first pattern thumb-hole under-lever patent." In February 1865, the design was much improved with a lever hinged immediately in front of the trigger guard and a single spring to tension the lever and bolt; this is the second pattern thumb-hole under-lever. As the design was quickly improved, very few examples were made of the first pattern. The second-pattern thumb-hole action survived well into the central-fire period and is popular today, as a recent YouTube video posted on CGN can attest. Purdey also built the thumb-hole action for other gunmakers, so various names turn up on thumb-hole action guns.
How many first-pattern thumb-hole guns were made in the 18 or so months between the first gun and the appearance of the second pattern? I don't know; it couldn't have been more than a handful. At the time, The Field weekly newspaper did not speak well of the action, questioning its durability, which would not have been good for sales! But some were made, but here is one of them in its original pin-fire configuration. It is a 12-bore, number 7080, probably one of the last made on this patent. It has the famous double bolt of the 1863 patent and has 30" fine damascus barrels inscribed "J. Purdey, 314½, Oxford Street, London." The extra fine scroll engraving would have been done in-house by James Lucas. At some time in its life, the chequering was re-cut, obviously and sadly not up to Purdey standards. The gun weighs an even seven pounds, and the bores are lightly pitted.
One of the many reasons I am interested in mid-Victorian British gunmaking is the remarkable ingenuity and creativity on display. Everything we take for granted in modern break-open shotguns appeared then, from centre-fire cartridges to extractors and ejectors, to choke-boring and the numerous action types that settled into the top lever and sliding underbolt. But though all of these are standard today to the point of not being given a second thought, the best ideas were not necessarily apparent then.
There are reasons for this. Shooters did not change guns easily; they were expensive, and once you found a gun that shot well, you stuck with it. My research into the writings of the day has shown me that back then, the barrels (and their shooting qualities) counted for 99% of a gun's perceived value – with the rest being the gun's action, decoration, and stock figure if these were considered at all. Actions were judged on their strength, ease of use, and potential for failing at inopportune moments, not their ingenuity. Quality was generally taken for granted, and guns of a given price tended to be equal in build and finish. No one had a monopoly on quality; for the most part, the various makers in places like London and Birmingham shared the same outworkers. Parts often came from the same sources, be they barrel tubes, locks etc. Inventiveness paid off in patented designs that could be promoted by word-of-mouth, patronage, or print advertising. And even then, such designs were not necessarily exclusive, as one maker could use another's design and pay a royalty. Common then, not so much now. Try going into a Ford dealership and asking them to supply their product but with a Honda engine…
So, with slow product turnover, ideas and designs did not radiate quickly. Patents could be maintained for many years and renewed. The gunmaking business (and it was a business, just as it is today) gradually gravitated towards easy-to-make, reliable designs to squeeze the most profit. The boxlock double gun is the epitome of this evolution. The action was invented in 1875 by William Anson, foreman of Westley Richards' gun action department, and John Deeley, the managing director of Westley Richards. Add to this a top lever, patented by William Middleditch Scott in 1865, which moves a spindle and cam. When rotated, it withdraws a horizontally sliding bolt that unlocks the barrels, allowing the gun to open. For the sliding bolt, two slots (or bites) were found to be far structurally sounder than a single one, with one slot closer to the hinge and the other close to the breech face. This latter invention by James Purdey dates from 1863, and the patent for it expired in 1877, explaining why almost all boxlocks made after this date have this locking mechanism.
The story of the Purdey sliding underbolt is intrinsically linked to the evolution of the pin-fire game gun.
The Purdey gunmaking family line started in the 1700s. The founder of the firm we know today, James Purdey (the Elder), was born in 1784 to a gunmaking father, who had learned the trade from his father, having moved from Scotland around 1690. In 1798 the London gunmaker Thomas Keck Hutchinson took on 14-year-old James as an apprentice for seven years. In 1805 Purdey began work as a stocker for Joseph Manton, and in 1808 he went to work as a stocker and lock filer for the Forsyth Patent Gun Co. On 31 December 1812, James Purdey became a Freeman of the Gunmakers Company, and in 1816 he set up a shop and workshop with an apprentice at 4 Princes Street, Leicester Square. Around 1820 the firm became a member of The Society of Master Gunmakers of Westminster. At this time, Purdey made guns under his name and for other gunmakers, notably Joseph Lang and Charles Lancaster. Purdey also ran a good business in second-hand guns. In 1826 the business moved to Oxford Street. In 1838 Queen Victoria started buying guns from Purdey.
In 1843 James Purdey took on his son, James, as an apprentice. In 1853 James (the Elder) retired, and his son, age 29 (and known since as James the Younger), took over the business. In 1857 Purdey built its first pin-fire gun, but very few were made. These would have been made according to Joseph Lang's design, with a short forward-facing underlever and a single-bite attachment. In 1860 James Purdey (the Younger) became a Freeman of the Gunmakers Company and bought the business outright. In 1861 the firm made 41 pin-fires, all built on sliding-barrel actions from the Bastin Brothers of Hermalle-sous-Argenteau, Liège, Belgium. The actions were purchased in-the-white and made into guns at the Oxford Street premises. Also, in 1861, James took out the first Purdey patent for a pin-fire cartridge turnover machine, the first genuinely effective design.
Then, in May 1863, Purdey obtained patent No. 1104 for a pin-fire breech-loader with a sliding bolt in the action bar. The bolt was operated by a long under-lever hinged at the front, which was grasped through a wide bifurcated trigger guard; both the bolt and lever were spring tensioned. This is the famous Purdey double bolt, correctly known as the "first pattern thumb-hole under-lever patent." In February 1865, the design was much improved with a lever hinged immediately in front of the trigger guard and a single spring to tension the lever and bolt; this is the second pattern thumb-hole under-lever. As the design was quickly improved, very few examples were made of the first pattern. The second-pattern thumb-hole action survived well into the central-fire period and is popular today, as a recent YouTube video posted on CGN can attest. Purdey also built the thumb-hole action for other gunmakers, so various names turn up on thumb-hole action guns.
How many first-pattern thumb-hole guns were made in the 18 or so months between the first gun and the appearance of the second pattern? I don't know; it couldn't have been more than a handful. At the time, The Field weekly newspaper did not speak well of the action, questioning its durability, which would not have been good for sales! But some were made, but here is one of them in its original pin-fire configuration. It is a 12-bore, number 7080, probably one of the last made on this patent. It has the famous double bolt of the 1863 patent and has 30" fine damascus barrels inscribed "J. Purdey, 314½, Oxford Street, London." The extra fine scroll engraving would have been done in-house by James Lucas. At some time in its life, the chequering was re-cut, obviously and sadly not up to Purdey standards. The gun weighs an even seven pounds, and the bores are lightly pitted.
Falconflyer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That under lever is very cool but I'm trying to envision how it would work and it seems that one might need three hands if the lever itself doesn't control the fall of the barrels when operated.
MBiz, in 1865 the gun would have sold for 50 guineas, or £52 and 10 shillings. A bank manager might make £75-£90 in annual wages, a butler as little as £40/year. These were the toys of the very rich. I haven't yet found out who commissioned the gun (Purdey's asks $130 for this information). While it is interesting to know a gun's history, it can take a dark turn when you find out the family wealth that allowed gentlemen to pursue their country pursuits came from slave plantations or other dubious sources etc.!
A beautiful pinfire Purdey, Pinfire. Sorry Steve, couldn’t help myself.
Choke is one of those subjects that elicits strong responses. It is a clever solution to the problem of getting the most pellets into a given space, at a distance. To some, it is a panacea; to others a go-to excuse for missed shots. I consider choke a part of the mysterious, unknowable phenomena that occur milliseconds after the firing pin strikes the primer, hidden from view and happening too fast for human senses to make sense of. While barrel boring for best results was a frequent subject of conversation in the shooting newspapers back in the 1850s, it was still mysterious in that there were no standards, only gunmaker secrets. Some claimed opening the bore towards the muzzle gave tighter patterns, while others, correctly, believed the opposite to be preferred. There were fantastical claims of impossibly long shots on game, pooh-poohed as Munchausen-esque by bewhiskered gentlemen over cigars and port. Wonderful reading.
While the invention of choke boring cannot be attributed to any one person or a specific century, the first patent can, and the honour goes to William Rochester Pape of Newcastle. But before bestowing too much credit, he included his method for choke boring as an afterthought to his patent for a new breech-loader action, which he obtained on 29 May 1866 and given No. 1501. The Pape action consisted of two bolts on a vertical spindle, operated by a small thumb lever to the right of and just in front of the trigger guard, under spring tension. The bottom bolt engages with a slot in the barrel lump, and the upper bolt engages with an extension above the barrels. Pape claimed that the action was self-tightening so that even after wear and tear, it would remain tight (becoming loose was one of the biggest fears of the revolutionary snap-actions at the time). The patent concentrated on the action, not on the choke boring, and it was not renewed in 1873, suggesting Pape did not consider choke boring to be of particular importance at the time, or worth protecting. As choke boring became a ‘thing’ when everyone started doing it, Pape stated to be its inventor, a claim shared with great acrimony with another Newcastle-born gunmaker, William Wellington Greener. In 1875, to settle the matter, The Field newspaper set up a committee to decide the winner, and Pape won the £10 prize because of his patent. It did not stop Greener from subsequently claiming it was he who perfected choke boring, to anyone who would listen.
It was with guns of the 1866 patent that William Rochester Pape won The Field trial of 1866 in London. The trial ended up pitting Pape's choke-bored guns against mainly cylinder-bored guns. In the 12-bore class, Pape took first, second, fifth and seventh place out of a field of 32 guns (1st, 2nd and 5th were pin-fires, and 7th was a central-fire). Greener took third place with a ‘wedge fast’ pin-fire of his make. Only two guns were taking part in the 16-bore class, and Pape won with a pin-fire gun. Interestingly, pin-fire guns outperformed central-fire guns on that day, the last great hurrah of the pin-fire in Britain.
On 3 September 1867, Pape was granted patent No. 2488 for an improved design incorporating his thumb lever (sometimes called a ‘tap’ lever or ‘butterfly wing’ lever), and this latter patent is the one which is most frequently seen on Pape’s central-fire guns today, as he continued making them for some years. It can be distinguished from the first patent by the angle of the thumb lever, which lies at more of a right angle to the gun. Pape could not have made many guns of the first patent in the 14 months between the two designs.
Pape was known for having guns built for him in Birmingham, but he also produced them in his Newcastle workshop, where he employed nine workers and four apprentices. Whether Pape himself made guns is an open question. He aggressively and tirelessly promoted his business, such as participating in the trials and advertising widely in the sporting and general press. Of his 1866 patent gun, which he sold for £40, he announced it in The Field, the English Mechanic and Mirror of Science, and local papers, including the Derby Mercury, the Gateshead Observer, the Kelso Chronicle, the Leicester Mail, the Lincolnshire Chronicle, the Newcastle Courant, the Newcastle Daily Chronicle, the Newcastle Guardian and Tyne Mercury, the Newcastle Journal, and the Shields Daily News. This rush of advertising was more self-promotion than an expectation of business, as the number of people who could afford the most expensive gun would be few – but one can dream, I suppose. In his adverts, Pape could claim to have “Won the only three great Sporting Gun Trials Open to the World,” and offering “...unrivalled Steel-Barreled BREECH LOADERS made with our New Patent Pin or Central Fire Actions… all Bored upon Pape’s Principle, which stands unequalled by proof of Public Contests.” His range of guns started at £12, which was still a good bit of money then. Pape spent much of his time pursuing his other interests, namely dog breeding and falconry (in 1859, Pape organized the first dog show in Britain, held at the Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corn Exchange, offering one of his shotguns as a prize).
What does a £40, 1866-patent, William Rochester Pape pin-fire game gun look like? Here’s one. And it is only the 13th gun built to this patent – early indeed. It is a 12-bore made in 1866, number 1366. The top rib is signed “W. R. Pape Newcastle on Tyne Winner of the London Gun Trials 1858, 1859, & 1866 Patent no. 13.” The bar locks are marked “W. R. Pape,” and the action body is fluted in shape and engraved “W. R. Pape’s Patent.” The gun is decorated in best foliate engraving with dogs in ovals (very appropriate, on a Pape gun). The hammers are well sculpted, and the forearm has ornate chequering borders, both characteristics of the maker. Main parts are initialled "WRP," so I presume the gun was made in the Newcastle workshop, and not made by another for Pape. The gun weighs a hefty 7 lb 14 oz, suggesting it might have been built as a live-pigeon gun. I do not possess the tools to measure choke boring correctly, but this gun likely has some degree of choke. Pape guns have always been well regarded for their quality, and by the late 1800s, Pape was known as “the Purdey of the North.”
Very special thanks go to Ashcroft, whose eagle-eyes spotted this gem amongst gun-show chaff and helped me seal the deal with the seller, another splendid fellow. If you want to examine this important design closely, I suggest attending the 7th Annual Double Gun Classic, where the gun will sit amongst other remarkable pin-fires.
While the invention of choke boring cannot be attributed to any one person or a specific century, the first patent can, and the honour goes to William Rochester Pape of Newcastle. But before bestowing too much credit, he included his method for choke boring as an afterthought to his patent for a new breech-loader action, which he obtained on 29 May 1866 and given No. 1501. The Pape action consisted of two bolts on a vertical spindle, operated by a small thumb lever to the right of and just in front of the trigger guard, under spring tension. The bottom bolt engages with a slot in the barrel lump, and the upper bolt engages with an extension above the barrels. Pape claimed that the action was self-tightening so that even after wear and tear, it would remain tight (becoming loose was one of the biggest fears of the revolutionary snap-actions at the time). The patent concentrated on the action, not on the choke boring, and it was not renewed in 1873, suggesting Pape did not consider choke boring to be of particular importance at the time, or worth protecting. As choke boring became a ‘thing’ when everyone started doing it, Pape stated to be its inventor, a claim shared with great acrimony with another Newcastle-born gunmaker, William Wellington Greener. In 1875, to settle the matter, The Field newspaper set up a committee to decide the winner, and Pape won the £10 prize because of his patent. It did not stop Greener from subsequently claiming it was he who perfected choke boring, to anyone who would listen.
It was with guns of the 1866 patent that William Rochester Pape won The Field trial of 1866 in London. The trial ended up pitting Pape's choke-bored guns against mainly cylinder-bored guns. In the 12-bore class, Pape took first, second, fifth and seventh place out of a field of 32 guns (1st, 2nd and 5th were pin-fires, and 7th was a central-fire). Greener took third place with a ‘wedge fast’ pin-fire of his make. Only two guns were taking part in the 16-bore class, and Pape won with a pin-fire gun. Interestingly, pin-fire guns outperformed central-fire guns on that day, the last great hurrah of the pin-fire in Britain.
On 3 September 1867, Pape was granted patent No. 2488 for an improved design incorporating his thumb lever (sometimes called a ‘tap’ lever or ‘butterfly wing’ lever), and this latter patent is the one which is most frequently seen on Pape’s central-fire guns today, as he continued making them for some years. It can be distinguished from the first patent by the angle of the thumb lever, which lies at more of a right angle to the gun. Pape could not have made many guns of the first patent in the 14 months between the two designs.
Pape was known for having guns built for him in Birmingham, but he also produced them in his Newcastle workshop, where he employed nine workers and four apprentices. Whether Pape himself made guns is an open question. He aggressively and tirelessly promoted his business, such as participating in the trials and advertising widely in the sporting and general press. Of his 1866 patent gun, which he sold for £40, he announced it in The Field, the English Mechanic and Mirror of Science, and local papers, including the Derby Mercury, the Gateshead Observer, the Kelso Chronicle, the Leicester Mail, the Lincolnshire Chronicle, the Newcastle Courant, the Newcastle Daily Chronicle, the Newcastle Guardian and Tyne Mercury, the Newcastle Journal, and the Shields Daily News. This rush of advertising was more self-promotion than an expectation of business, as the number of people who could afford the most expensive gun would be few – but one can dream, I suppose. In his adverts, Pape could claim to have “Won the only three great Sporting Gun Trials Open to the World,” and offering “...unrivalled Steel-Barreled BREECH LOADERS made with our New Patent Pin or Central Fire Actions… all Bored upon Pape’s Principle, which stands unequalled by proof of Public Contests.” His range of guns started at £12, which was still a good bit of money then. Pape spent much of his time pursuing his other interests, namely dog breeding and falconry (in 1859, Pape organized the first dog show in Britain, held at the Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corn Exchange, offering one of his shotguns as a prize).
What does a £40, 1866-patent, William Rochester Pape pin-fire game gun look like? Here’s one. And it is only the 13th gun built to this patent – early indeed. It is a 12-bore made in 1866, number 1366. The top rib is signed “W. R. Pape Newcastle on Tyne Winner of the London Gun Trials 1858, 1859, & 1866 Patent no. 13.” The bar locks are marked “W. R. Pape,” and the action body is fluted in shape and engraved “W. R. Pape’s Patent.” The gun is decorated in best foliate engraving with dogs in ovals (very appropriate, on a Pape gun). The hammers are well sculpted, and the forearm has ornate chequering borders, both characteristics of the maker. Main parts are initialled "WRP," so I presume the gun was made in the Newcastle workshop, and not made by another for Pape. The gun weighs a hefty 7 lb 14 oz, suggesting it might have been built as a live-pigeon gun. I do not possess the tools to measure choke boring correctly, but this gun likely has some degree of choke. Pape guns have always been well regarded for their quality, and by the late 1800s, Pape was known as “the Purdey of the North.”
Very special thanks go to Ashcroft, whose eagle-eyes spotted this gem amongst gun-show chaff and helped me seal the deal with the seller, another splendid fellow. If you want to examine this important design closely, I suggest attending the 7th Annual Double Gun Classic, where the gun will sit amongst other remarkable pin-fires.
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The Pape is yet another fine pin fire shotgun.
I have a Pape 20 gauge hammer gun that was made about 1912---it has steel barrels and is nitro proofed. Not only is it a rather rare gun but it is a beautiful gun to shoot as well. It has a distinct checkering pattern which adds to its attributes.
I obtained this fine gun a few years back from Ashcroft and now it is heading back to him as he insists it is the perfect grouse gun.
I have a Pape 20 gauge hammer gun that was made about 1912---it has steel barrels and is nitro proofed. Not only is it a rather rare gun but it is a beautiful gun to shoot as well. It has a distinct checkering pattern which adds to its attributes.
I obtained this fine gun a few years back from Ashcroft and now it is heading back to him as he insists it is the perfect grouse gun.
