Let's see your winchester pump shotguns
- Thread starter Cow Town Bill
- Start date
Good to see someone remembers that trio. M12, M42 & M61. All 3 go good together.
I previously mentioned I'd briefly explain the different vented ribs Winchester used on the Model 12. The first vented rib was the 2-pin milled vented rib. Very labor intensive beautiful example of old world machining skills. The barrel posts were milled from the barrel stock being dressed down and the rib was milled in a separate procedure creating another set of rib posts that slipped over the barrel posts, allowing the rib to float with a hot barrel, securing it with 2 pins on the post at the end of the magazine. During the post war boom years labor was such that Winchester lost money offering their 2-pin rib. Winchester had a good relationship with Simmons who designed a round post doughnut base rib that was brazed to the top of the barrel with the posts grooved on top with rib sliding over the top of the posts so Winchester, in 1954, employed Simmons to supervise the Winchester employees on how to install this Simmons rib. These ribs installed at the Winchester factory were basically Simmon's ribs but if installed at Winchester are collectibly correct but if installed at Simmons they are not. Couple years later another cost cutting and the ribs were then just round post ribs and around 1957-59 Winchester designed their own square post rib that brazed the posts to the barrel with rib slipping over the grove on top of the posts. The rib was secured at a center post with 3 pins.
- Here's three examples of the M12 with 3-pin ribs
- The 3 pin and 2-pin
- 2-Pin Rec Top with horizontal lines on rib and Rec Top - 3-Pin Rec Top with straight lines on rib and plain Rec Top
- Round Post Rib example - M50 Skeet 20 ga
- Unfired M12 field, 28" Mod and a M61
- Here's three examples of the M12 with 3-pin ribs
- The 3 pin and 2-pin
- 2-Pin Rec Top with horizontal lines on rib and Rec Top - 3-Pin Rec Top with straight lines on rib and plain Rec Top
- Round Post Rib example - M50 Skeet 20 ga
- Unfired M12 field, 28" Mod and a M61
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Great information and pictures,Rod.Thanks so much for posting.I have learned a lot,about the Winchester posts.Could you by any chance, post some pictures of the doughnut and square post ribs?I have three Model 12 guns and a Model 42,but none of them have ribs.
Falconflyer
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Great pics and information Rod. I've read about the different ribs and posts before but this is a nice refresher!
An unfired M12 must be pretty rare these days!
An unfired M12 must be pretty rare these days!
I should've been more clear when I mentioned the 3-pin as it is the square post rib. "3-pin square post rib". Winchester called it "New Winchester Ventilated Rib".
Bill has shown a fine example of the "round post doughnut base rib" on his first post with that beautiful engraved 28 gauge M12. Bill mentioned it was sent to Simmons, at a later date, for the rib but that's the same rib that Winchester called both the Doughnut Base and the Round Post Rib "New Winchester Special Rib" when originally installed at the Winchester Factory. When installed at Simmons, even though it's the same rib, it's referred to as a "Simmon's Round Post Doughnut Base Rib". Usually Simmons would have their logo stamped on the left rear side of the rib and no WP stamp on the barrel.
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These are what remains of my 1897 collection (image link at the end).
Built in 1953, the one on the left is a standard field grade in 12 ga 2 3/4” with a 30” full choke barrel, matching serial numbers. It came to me partially polished and with a huge chip behind the receiver. I completed the polish job (it remains in the white), replaced the butt stock, and slicked up the action. I shoot this gun when I feel like a pump gun hunt.
The serial number on the one on the right says it was made in 1907, but the fore stock must have been replaced because the action bar is stamped “Model ‘97”. Also a 12 ga, 2 3/4”, 30” full choke, I bought it on a road trip through Saskatchewan one summer. It has matching serial numbers and retains much of the original bluing and wood finish. I keep it simply because of it’s age and condition.
The one in the center at the back was purchased by my grandfather in about 1915 (built in 1913). This one is a 16 ga, 2 9/16” with a full choked 28” barrel. This was the 2nd shotgun I ever fired. All matching serial numbers, it has had the stocks refinished twice in 108 years of service. This gun recently moved to the first notch of the #2 adjustment flange.
Lastly, in front there’s an 1897 Trench model built in 1918. It is chambered in 2 3/4” CYL with a 20” barrel, heat shield, and bayonet mount. It is in the serial number range for verified WWI manufacture trench models and shows the US and flaming bomb stamps, as well as the armoury cartouches on the stock. It is paired with the proper 1917 pattern bayonet with leather scabbard. My research indicates that it has the proper heat shield expected on a WWI era, but it has the fluted stock used on those refurbished for use in WWII. If it was imported into Canada after it’s military service, it’s possible it may have seen service in Korea and/or Vietnam as well.
I apologise that I don’t have access to post images on this forum, but the photo can be viewed at:
http://img.gg/XRceb9t
Built in 1953, the one on the left is a standard field grade in 12 ga 2 3/4” with a 30” full choke barrel, matching serial numbers. It came to me partially polished and with a huge chip behind the receiver. I completed the polish job (it remains in the white), replaced the butt stock, and slicked up the action. I shoot this gun when I feel like a pump gun hunt.
The serial number on the one on the right says it was made in 1907, but the fore stock must have been replaced because the action bar is stamped “Model ‘97”. Also a 12 ga, 2 3/4”, 30” full choke, I bought it on a road trip through Saskatchewan one summer. It has matching serial numbers and retains much of the original bluing and wood finish. I keep it simply because of it’s age and condition.
The one in the center at the back was purchased by my grandfather in about 1915 (built in 1913). This one is a 16 ga, 2 9/16” with a full choked 28” barrel. This was the 2nd shotgun I ever fired. All matching serial numbers, it has had the stocks refinished twice in 108 years of service. This gun recently moved to the first notch of the #2 adjustment flange.
Lastly, in front there’s an 1897 Trench model built in 1918. It is chambered in 2 3/4” CYL with a 20” barrel, heat shield, and bayonet mount. It is in the serial number range for verified WWI manufacture trench models and shows the US and flaming bomb stamps, as well as the armoury cartouches on the stock. It is paired with the proper 1917 pattern bayonet with leather scabbard. My research indicates that it has the proper heat shield expected on a WWI era, but it has the fluted stock used on those refurbished for use in WWII. If it was imported into Canada after it’s military service, it’s possible it may have seen service in Korea and/or Vietnam as well.
I apologise that I don’t have access to post images on this forum, but the photo can be viewed at:
http://img.gg/XRceb9t
This is a M12, 12 gauge, engraved after market by Heidi Hiptmayer. It was made in 1952 and has a vent rib by Simmons and I presume it was sent to Simmons for the rib. I'm hoping Rod can tell us something about the posts and maybe the pins. I sold the gun some time ago and don't recall details about the pins.
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Bill that's a very nice M12. Usually when Simmons installed a rib at their facility they would have their logo on the left rear side of the rib. If memory is correct it was something like this "Simmons Gun Specialities, KS". Besides the round post and doughnut post ribs, Simmons had a later rib with brazed on posts that at a distance resembled the posts on the Winchester 2 pin rib. I believe it was referred to as Simmons Oval Post Rib. I had a trap gun with that type of rib and the same rib extension on the receiver. Usually when Simmons installed a rib the barrel was reblued with a deep luster bluing. Almost mirror like.
Your engraved M12 appears to have a square post rib that looks to be pinned at the rear post. More photos showing the barrel and ribs would be good.
I was 5 in the early 60's when my Dad bought a new M12 20 gauge for my brothers and I to learn to shoot shotguns with. When I was old enough to hunt by older brother graduated to a M97 12 gauge and I got the M12. After I went through a semi auto and then an O/U phase I got into SxSs, but I alway had a soft spot for the M12 20. IIRC right the M12 first came out in 20 gauge. The only pump I have is one of those first run 20s. It has 2 1/2" chambers and a 25" barrel. Well worn, but still tight and a fine shooter.
Just picked up an M12 in 12ga covered fore to aft in camo tape. Decent shape mechanically, hunting use, nothing special other than a serial number that is 4 digits.. After a cleaning I will take some pics and hopefully it is not pitted under the tape.
I have one of those early 20 ga M12's. Late 1st year/early 2nd year. Also have a first year for the 12 ga (1914). Those first couple of years the receiver top doesn't have the sight groove just matting. No line up arrows on the receiver extension and mag tube either and the shallow grooves on the barrel sides for the end of the mag tube clamp aren't there.
If I have some time I'll take a few more photos of some more M12's I have. One is a real sweetheart just one of those guns you like to take upland hunting. It's mid-1930's 16 ga with a solid rib 28" barrel with modified choke. For those that don't already know; Winchester built the M12 16 ga on their M12 20 ga. frame. Back in the day it was said, "the 16 ga shoots like a 12 ga and carries like a 20 ga. With the modified choke it is a pleasant gun to go hunting with. The bonus is it's in very good condition with no bolt droop and still on the first take up notch.
