Let's talk barrel thickness
- Thread starter Chago
- Start date
No kidding, we disagree on a lot.
Jerry knows that the Canadian precision rifle market is full of cheap people, so he hawks cheap sub par stuff. Look at the stuff he sells - IBI, McGowen, Shilen barrels, Athlon and Delta optics, Rem 783's, etc...
All cheap and second or third tier products. You don't need to be an expert to know that Remington is producing a bunch of crap these days. Even if the Rem 783 has somehow defied Remington's ability to ##### up all their products, you still have to Bubba the hell out of it to make it even feasibly as functional as other baseline tactical rifles.
If you want to be cheap, get a Tikka.
KT
I see you are back with your crap again. I was hoping you would simply stay away!
The real issue is that you feel that you need a high end $10,000'ish match rifle and optics and in almost every post are running down people that offer other alternatives. Your view isn't sustainable long term and actually bad for the PRS sport because most people simply can't afford these expensive rifles. My sport is F-Class and I saw the same comments and feeling expressed about Savage, primarily from dealers who were afraid that they wouldn't be able to sell the high profit margin bling. It took time but eventually the Savage action was supported just the same as the Remington and now they are accepted as equal to the custom build's.
The fact is you don't need a $2700 action to make a competitive rifle but a $350 rifle action just doesn't offer the profit margin that your friends want to support their business. The 783 is now getting the support it deserves. You can buy aftermarket triggers (although the factory is really good, scope rails, multiple barrel manufacturers, stocks, and magazine conversions. You just haven't been paying attention!! As people begin to realize that it is actually a good well machined action then more and more stuff will appear. Remington true has had their quality issues and that I agree on but the 783 is well thought out and machined.
I run the setup you suggest in my match rifles. However, it takes me about a year from time of barrel order to getting a finished rifle back most of the time. I use 4 match rifles simply to keep 2 in operation. Not a lot of people can afford to do that. I am seriously considering moving to a switch barrel setup because then I don't need the machinist to convert the blanks into a barrel. This could save me 3-6 months but that wouldn't keep your friends in business. And the switch barrels appear to be equally accurate!! There is a lot of appeal to that for me!! I started with the cheaper actions and moved onwards. Didn't shoot better but looks nicer!!
So in a way your continuing comments expose you as worse than you claim Jerry is because you are hiding the fact that you want to run down the cheaper alternatives simply to support your friends while causing damage to the sport! Jerry supports the broader volume of people who are interested in dabbling in the sport but can't afford the rifles your friends build. This is actually far better for the game because it brings more people into the sport. If you were smart you would support that also because a number of them might want to build high cost rifles simply for ego which is fine. I did the same!!
The other fact that we have found in both F-Class and PRS is that the expensive stuff isn't necessarily better product simply because it is more money. I have run Leupold, March, and Nightforce scopes for more years than you have shot. I have found that all brands breakdown. The brand that doesn't as much to have the same issues is Sightron which is the cheapest of the scope brands. Also the glass in the Sightron allows you to see the mirage better and not though the mirage. I have spent a great deal of money on the expensive stuff only to go back to the cheaper line simply because they work. One of the better PRS guys was over at my place the other day and he was upset that he had 3 of the top of the line Gen 2 Razor Vortex scopes fail which he had to return for warranty and it had cost him a fortune going to matches and not doing well. We had a real discussion on the way the sport was going with the high priced equipment focus. He was upset that he had $12,000 in optics fail and had to be fixed.
The expensive stuff does offer a higher profit margin though for your friends!! Maybe you should go back to the swamp and learn a few things before mouthing off again.
By the way, I am rated as a High Master in F-Class, have shot for Canada in the World's and have set many NRA records!!
I see you are back with your crap again. I was hoping you would simply stay away!
The real issue is that you feel that you need a high end $10,000'ish match rifle and optics and in almost every post are running down people that offer other alternatives. Your view isn't sustainable long term and actually bad for the PRS sport because most people simply can't afford these expensive rifles. My sport is F-Class and I saw the same comments and feeling expressed about Savage, primarily from dealers who were afraid that they wouldn't be able to sell the high profit margin bling. It took time but eventually the Savage action was supported just the same as the Remington and now they are accepted as equal to the custom build's.
The fact is you don't need a $2700 action to make a competitive rifle but a $350 rifle action just doesn't offer the profit margin that your friends want to support their business. The 783 is now getting the support it deserves. You can buy aftermarket triggers (although the factory is really good, scope rails, multiple barrel manufacturers, stocks, and magazine conversions. You just haven't been paying attention!! As people begin to realize that it is actually a good well machined action then more and more stuff will appear. Remington true has had their quality issues and that I agree on but the 783 is well thought out and machined.
I run the setup you suggest in my match rifles. However, it takes me about a year from time of barrel order to getting a finished rifle back most of the time. I use 4 match rifles simply to keep 2 in operation. Not a lot of people can afford to do that. I am seriously considering moving to a switch barrel setup because then I don't need the machinist to convert the blanks into a barrel. This could save me 3-6 months but that wouldn't keep your friends in business. And the switch barrels appear to be equally accurate!! There is a lot of appeal to that for me!! I started with the cheaper actions and moved onwards. Didn't shoot better but looks nicer!!
So in a way your continuing comments expose you as worse than you claim Jerry is because you are hiding the fact that you want to run down the cheaper alternatives simply to support your friends while causing damage to the sport! Jerry supports the broader volume of people who are interested in dabbling in the sport but can't afford the rifles your friends build. This is actually far better for the game because it brings more people into the sport. If you were smart you would support that also because a number of them might want to build high cost rifles simply for ego which is fine. I did the same!!
The other fact that we have found in both F-Class and PRS is that the expensive stuff isn't necessarily better product simply because it is more money. I have run Leupold, March, and Nightforce scopes for more years than you have shot. I have found that all brands breakdown. The brand that doesn't as much to have the same issues is Sightron which is the cheapest of the scope brands. Also the glass in the Sightron allows you to see the mirage better and not though the mirage. I have spent a great deal of money on the expensive stuff only to go back to the cheaper line simply because they work. One of the better PRS guys was over at my place the other day and he was upset that he had 3 of the top of the line Gen 2 Razor Vortex scopes fail which he had to return for warranty and it had cost him a fortune going to matches and not doing well. We had a real discussion on the way the sport was going with the high priced equipment focus. He was upset that he had $12,000 in optics fail and had to be fixed.
The expensive stuff does offer a higher profit margin though for your friends!! Maybe you should go back to the swamp and learn a few things before mouthing off again.
By the way, I am rated as a High Master in F-Class, have shot for Canada in the World's and have set many NRA records!!
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The Rem 783, like the Savage is very easy to work on. With the proper headspace gauges, takes a few minutes to headspace a barrel.
For a det mag set up, there are a few ways to go. The easiest is to run a MDT LSS chassis. Drop it in, and go have fun.. Perfer a different chassis from MDT, go bug them and they will likely produce it with enough demand.
Or you can get a PT&G bottom metal and inlet into your stock - factory or Boyds... will post pics later.
Most will run the AICS mags and the Rem 783 is unique in that the action bottom and bolt are scaled to run the AICS mags without mods. It will also run AI AW mags as well. There is some very forward thinking features designed into the action which has nothing to do with the factory det mag.
There are a lot of positives to having the freedom to choose between a gunsmith installed shouldered headspace barrel OR a barrel nut headspaced match barrel. The Factory receivers I have played with (now 8 and climbing) have all been spot on for machining tolerances, being true and solid in their lock up.
I have received feedback from gunsmiths who have set up these receivers in their lathes and actually measured them and were surprised at how well they were made.
Part of my business is offering custom actions and high end builds, so why bother with a dirt cheap factory rifle I don't even sell? Because, it is too darn good to not take notice.
I worry about performance well before I worry about price. If a part needs to be expensive to work, so be it... but I never consider the most expensive products to be superior. Some aren't...
I hope that Rem continues to upgrade and expand the product line and doesn't screw up the QC.. so far, so good.
Jerry
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I think the saying goes... "a fool is soon parted from his money"
The gear I offer I test.. and I test under match conditions against some of the best in my sport.
2017 was a very good year for me.. but there have been some repeat performance from 2016. This testing has been part of my hobby and business since before many posting here were out of high school.
But let's see what others are doing:...
Athlon: Scope used by the lady that won the 2017 Production Class in PRS. That would be the National Title. There is a nice youtube interview.
The most popular scope during NRL22 2018 Nationals - gear survey
http://nrl22.org/sports/nrl22-2018-nationals-gear-survey-results/
Shilen: has a pending new WORLD RECORD in SR BR set this spring by a wonderful Gent from the US. He backed that up the next weekend winning another big match.
Apparently a bunch of top US CMP service rifle shooters think these barrels are worthwhile.
McGowen barrels: I have posted plenty of pics already about performance I have had from my Rem 783/Mcgowen 6.5 CM combos.. and AR10/DPMS barrels. I got the best 5X5rds average for the AR15 CGN challenge in 2016... not sure if anyone has beaten that average and posted results?
And on it goes.
I do not feel it is very professional to slag a product or competitor, especially, when it is only personal opinion backing up the statement. There are plenty of products that do their job well, all at various price points.
If a shooter feels that price determines performance, it is their money to spend.
Me, I prefer to prove the stuff I use and offer in competition... it may be considered "lesser" grade stuff by a few, but it gets me FIRST PLACE results... and I have a bunch of money left over.
Jerry
The gear I offer I test.. and I test under match conditions against some of the best in my sport.
2017 was a very good year for me.. but there have been some repeat performance from 2016. This testing has been part of my hobby and business since before many posting here were out of high school.
But let's see what others are doing:...
Athlon: Scope used by the lady that won the 2017 Production Class in PRS. That would be the National Title. There is a nice youtube interview.
The most popular scope during NRL22 2018 Nationals - gear survey
http://nrl22.org/sports/nrl22-2018-nationals-gear-survey-results/
Shilen: has a pending new WORLD RECORD in SR BR set this spring by a wonderful Gent from the US. He backed that up the next weekend winning another big match.
Apparently a bunch of top US CMP service rifle shooters think these barrels are worthwhile.
McGowen barrels: I have posted plenty of pics already about performance I have had from my Rem 783/Mcgowen 6.5 CM combos.. and AR10/DPMS barrels. I got the best 5X5rds average for the AR15 CGN challenge in 2016... not sure if anyone has beaten that average and posted results?
And on it goes.
I do not feel it is very professional to slag a product or competitor, especially, when it is only personal opinion backing up the statement. There are plenty of products that do their job well, all at various price points.
If a shooter feels that price determines performance, it is their money to spend.
Me, I prefer to prove the stuff I use and offer in competition... it may be considered "lesser" grade stuff by a few, but it gets me FIRST PLACE results... and I have a bunch of money left over.
Jerry
Attachments
Way to put words in my mouth there slugger. You completely missed by point, and by a country mile.
Lots of great budget options out there. There's never been a better time for shooters looking to get into precision rifle shooting on a budget!
Tikka, Ruger RPR, MPA, Bergara, Seekins, etc. If you go slightly higher price point, you get the ARC Nucleus, Bighorn Origin, Defiance Tenacity. For some of these actions (ARC Nucleus and Bighorn Origin), you can have a gunsmith spin you up a barrel without him even seeing your action. He can mail it to you, and you can screw it on with minimal tools, and no need for ugly barrel nuts and headspace go/no-go gauges. Plug and play.
The law of diminishing returns certainly applies to purchasing products in this sport, as it does everywhere else in life. The more you spend, the increments of improvement get less and less. Not everyone has a budget to buy the best, that's understandable. Thankfully there are lots of great budget friendly options - the Rem 783 is just not one of them. You have to do so much peace-meal work to that rifle to make it a practical field rifle, why bother? At the end of the day you end up with a mediocre rifle with no aftermarket support. Absolute nonsense to go that route when you have all the other amazing budget options out there today that have lots of support.
Also, not sure who you are referencing as "my friends". I dont care who you buy from or what you buy. I live in the USA and I'm not in the industry.
No matter what your budget is, buy the best you can practically afford and get out and shoot. Even if that means you are taking your hunting rifle from 1974 and shooting a match with that - that is great! I've seen it at matches, and I think it's awesome.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Put this together for a friend of mine.... PT&G DBM for the 783 SA. Inletting was very straight forward and one of the easiest fitments I have done with DBM's. This one is in 223 and runs the MDT polymer mags smoothly. PT&G lists both SA and LA ....
Not a whole lot of exterior changes vs the factory inletting in the Boyds stock.
Will get him a 6.5 Creedmoor shortly.
Timney did a facebook survey earlier this season and the Rem 783 was the trigger that was picked to be made next. Not sure on the leadtime but it is coming this year.
This shorty version was announced at SHOT 2018 and has now hit dealer shelves. It gets rid of the horrid bolt knob and offers a very useable tactical knob on a threaded handle (any std thread aftermarket knob can be used).. it even included a pic rail which is likely made by EGW. You can read other reviews on this and the Walnut stocked version in the hunting forum.
so far, lots more happy owners.
Sorry, to the OP for such a change of topic.....but I hope it helps others with what is current and upcoming.
Jerry
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I have thought about this lately.
The action, as we all know, is really just the mechanism that moves that cartridge into the chamber and drops the pin (simplifying OK). Remington, Tikka, Defiance, AI, Badger, and the list goes on, all do the same thing. Maybe it is a 2 lug, 3 lug, smoot/not smooth, mechanical ejector or not it does not really matter. All that stuff is really just a nicety when we just need something to feed & fire. I thought F-Class was all single feeding but maybe I am wrong. What I do know is this - until you run something under match conditions you do not know if your system works. I don't mean "I practice under time" I mean a real match with dozens of eyeballs on you, with a fee you paid, a timer running, and a score that counts.
KThomas is correct though. The 783 is an unknown quantity with limited aftermarket support. I wish there were tonnes of cheap options out there - I love seeing newbies out at my matches trying out PRS. The more people out there shooting the better for the community. Maybe the 783 will grow into a viable option if an aftermarket develops but at this time that isn't quite the case.
However, the PRS world is lucky and you can get some good guns out there without dropping huge dollars and do well. One of the top PRS shooters in Alberta this season (Shawn I.) is running an RPR with an after market barrel. The Howa Bravo is supposed to show up north of the Border and it will only be in the $1,500 range. The Tikka CTR for $1,400 or a used Tac A1 for low $2,000s. Or a 700 action in a Magpul hunter stock. All of these options are known quantities - the cheaper ones (Bravo, stock RPR, 700 in a Magpul) won't cost much more than 783 by the time you buy the 783, bottom metal, upgrade the stock etc. You can also probably sell these options easier than the 783.
Let us also all remember that this the the Black & Green Precision rifle forum - the answers and those with experience here differ from those in other sub-forums.
In regard to barrel thickness though. I have 2 guns that are pretty much the same. One with an MTU and the other with a medium palma - all my guns will have MTU going forward as it just balances a touch better for me. 26" long as well.
The action, as we all know, is really just the mechanism that moves that cartridge into the chamber and drops the pin (simplifying OK). Remington, Tikka, Defiance, AI, Badger, and the list goes on, all do the same thing. Maybe it is a 2 lug, 3 lug, smoot/not smooth, mechanical ejector or not it does not really matter. All that stuff is really just a nicety when we just need something to feed & fire. I thought F-Class was all single feeding but maybe I am wrong. What I do know is this - until you run something under match conditions you do not know if your system works. I don't mean "I practice under time" I mean a real match with dozens of eyeballs on you, with a fee you paid, a timer running, and a score that counts.
KThomas is correct though. The 783 is an unknown quantity with limited aftermarket support. I wish there were tonnes of cheap options out there - I love seeing newbies out at my matches trying out PRS. The more people out there shooting the better for the community. Maybe the 783 will grow into a viable option if an aftermarket develops but at this time that isn't quite the case.
However, the PRS world is lucky and you can get some good guns out there without dropping huge dollars and do well. One of the top PRS shooters in Alberta this season (Shawn I.) is running an RPR with an after market barrel. The Howa Bravo is supposed to show up north of the Border and it will only be in the $1,500 range. The Tikka CTR for $1,400 or a used Tac A1 for low $2,000s. Or a 700 action in a Magpul hunter stock. All of these options are known quantities - the cheaper ones (Bravo, stock RPR, 700 in a Magpul) won't cost much more than 783 by the time you buy the 783, bottom metal, upgrade the stock etc. You can also probably sell these options easier than the 783.
Let us also all remember that this the the Black & Green Precision rifle forum - the answers and those with experience here differ from those in other sub-forums.
In regard to barrel thickness though. I have 2 guns that are pretty much the same. One with an MTU and the other with a medium palma - all my guns will have MTU going forward as it just balances a touch better for me. 26" long as well.
Honestly, I don't get the obsession with turning a 783 into a PRS rig. If you already have one and want to shoot it, that's great, take it to a match and see how you like shooting PRS. Using it as the base upon which to build a rifle specifically for PRS just really doesn't make much sense though. I'm going to take a step back for a second and say that I've never handled a 783 but I'm kinda doubtful that it functions any better than a 700.
Lets look at the cost.
A base 783 costs what, $400ish? For that, all you're really getting is the action and trigger. I've yet to see a model that comes with a barrel that is even close to optimal for shooting PRS matches (a 16" 6.5 Creed doesn't count) so you're looking at swapping out the barrel. You also need to change the stock if you want a DBM (which you will) and there your options are what, a LSS is the easiest and then a Boyd's and you inlet for a DBM. You'll also want to change the trigger which you can't do for now. Down the line, there's supposed to be a Timney option but that is literally one trigger option, somewhere in the future.
Contrast that to a Rem 700. You can find an action for around $500, most of them don't really need any truing. You can get a Remage style prefit for the same cost as the Savage one you need for your 783. You can also get any stock/chassis option on the market, including some options that work out cheaper than the Boyd's with DBM (like the Magpul Hunter with DBM) that are drop in, no inletting required. If you want a Boyd's, you can do that as well. Every trigger on the market is compatible so you can choose literally whatever option you like best (or try a bunch).
You can also do all this with a Savage with almost as many options. What I'm getting at, and what Kthomas was saying as well, is that there really is no cost savings to trying to turn an inexpensive hunting rifle into a PRS rig and why, really? I can't dispute how well the 783 runs cause I've never handled one but I just don't see why someone would want to set themselves up with something so limited right out of the gate for next to no savings and no benefit.
Lets look at the cost.
A base 783 costs what, $400ish? For that, all you're really getting is the action and trigger. I've yet to see a model that comes with a barrel that is even close to optimal for shooting PRS matches (a 16" 6.5 Creed doesn't count) so you're looking at swapping out the barrel. You also need to change the stock if you want a DBM (which you will) and there your options are what, a LSS is the easiest and then a Boyd's and you inlet for a DBM. You'll also want to change the trigger which you can't do for now. Down the line, there's supposed to be a Timney option but that is literally one trigger option, somewhere in the future.
Contrast that to a Rem 700. You can find an action for around $500, most of them don't really need any truing. You can get a Remage style prefit for the same cost as the Savage one you need for your 783. You can also get any stock/chassis option on the market, including some options that work out cheaper than the Boyd's with DBM (like the Magpul Hunter with DBM) that are drop in, no inletting required. If you want a Boyd's, you can do that as well. Every trigger on the market is compatible so you can choose literally whatever option you like best (or try a bunch).
You can also do all this with a Savage with almost as many options. What I'm getting at, and what Kthomas was saying as well, is that there really is no cost savings to trying to turn an inexpensive hunting rifle into a PRS rig and why, really? I can't dispute how well the 783 runs cause I've never handled one but I just don't see why someone would want to set themselves up with something so limited right out of the gate for next to no savings and no benefit.
I'm new to the sport, so bear with me a bit.
At the end of the day, for success in PRS competitions, does it not come down to having a reasonably accurate rifle (1/2 MOA - 1 MOA), that reliably cycles ammunition and is comfortable for the person shooting it?
Really, every action listed will reliably cycle a round. They'll do it with differing degrees of smoothness and "feel", but they'll stick a round in the chamber, make it go bang, and pull the round out with such a low % of failure that you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between them if looking at a spreadsheet that tracked failures to do any of those 3 things in a 1000 round test.
Aftermarket support only matters if the available after market products do not meet your needs. Currently, there are relatively low-cost products on the market for the 783 that will make it a reliably sub-MOA rifle in a chassis system that ticks off all the required boxes for competitive shooting. Lots of guys like the MDT chassis and put expensive custom barreled actions in them. They offer good action support, adjustability, and a bottom metal standard to other popular PRS chassis at a fraction of the cost. If you're one of the guys that finds them comfortable and wants to use one, aftermarket support doesn't mean much. Barrels can be argued all day long about what contour, length, brand, finish, fluting, etc is best, but again, there are pre-fit options with a relative low cost to install that will meet the accuracy requirements of 1/2 MOA - 1 MOA.
So really, it all comes down to cost. Each of the lower priced alternatives listed above is more expensive than a re-barreled 783 in an aftermarket chassis. Some not much more if left in their stock configuration, but still more, and considerably more if you intend to do any modification to them whatsoever. People may find that the options available for a 783 don't work for them, and they'll need to spend a bit more to meet their needs. That's fine. But discounting it as a low priced option to get into the sport is a disservice to new shooters.
I make these comments as someone who has spent many years shooting and practicing privately, and chasing down every piece of my gear based off of blogs, match reports, and forums like here where people constantly say, come out and have fun, but basically barrier to entry is X amount of dollars if you want to have any chance of being competitive - which is again the summary of the post made above. It's great that someone is doing so well with a re-barreled RPR in the Alberta PRS, and though it is definitely a budget option compared to some of our full custom guns, what does a re-barreled RPR cost nowadays? $2500-$2600 for the new rifle and barrel chambered and spun on? That's twice the price of the 783 option Jerry had recommended, and for what? Which feature of the RPR makes it worth two customized 783s? To a new shooter, wouldn't that money be much better suited towards better glass or extra ammunition to practice with?
These comments are a slippery slope, because for every price point we give out, we can always say "for just a couple hundred bucks more, you could have X".
I've bought and sold several rifles over the years that were more than sufficient to compete with, but held off on shooting a competition for years because the internet said they weren't good enough. I lost out on a lot of fun and experience because I waited until I had the gear the internet said I needed to have in order to compete. While I don't doubt the people arguing 'buy the best you can, and maybe a bit more' have honorable intentions and it is sound advice, trashing viable alternatives based on options that really come down to personal preference isn't helping grow the sport.
But, back on track. I absolutely agree with Ryan, a 26" MTU contour is my go-to. It balances nicely and just feels right.
At the end of the day, for success in PRS competitions, does it not come down to having a reasonably accurate rifle (1/2 MOA - 1 MOA), that reliably cycles ammunition and is comfortable for the person shooting it?
Really, every action listed will reliably cycle a round. They'll do it with differing degrees of smoothness and "feel", but they'll stick a round in the chamber, make it go bang, and pull the round out with such a low % of failure that you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between them if looking at a spreadsheet that tracked failures to do any of those 3 things in a 1000 round test.
Aftermarket support only matters if the available after market products do not meet your needs. Currently, there are relatively low-cost products on the market for the 783 that will make it a reliably sub-MOA rifle in a chassis system that ticks off all the required boxes for competitive shooting. Lots of guys like the MDT chassis and put expensive custom barreled actions in them. They offer good action support, adjustability, and a bottom metal standard to other popular PRS chassis at a fraction of the cost. If you're one of the guys that finds them comfortable and wants to use one, aftermarket support doesn't mean much. Barrels can be argued all day long about what contour, length, brand, finish, fluting, etc is best, but again, there are pre-fit options with a relative low cost to install that will meet the accuracy requirements of 1/2 MOA - 1 MOA.
So really, it all comes down to cost. Each of the lower priced alternatives listed above is more expensive than a re-barreled 783 in an aftermarket chassis. Some not much more if left in their stock configuration, but still more, and considerably more if you intend to do any modification to them whatsoever. People may find that the options available for a 783 don't work for them, and they'll need to spend a bit more to meet their needs. That's fine. But discounting it as a low priced option to get into the sport is a disservice to new shooters.
I make these comments as someone who has spent many years shooting and practicing privately, and chasing down every piece of my gear based off of blogs, match reports, and forums like here where people constantly say, come out and have fun, but basically barrier to entry is X amount of dollars if you want to have any chance of being competitive - which is again the summary of the post made above. It's great that someone is doing so well with a re-barreled RPR in the Alberta PRS, and though it is definitely a budget option compared to some of our full custom guns, what does a re-barreled RPR cost nowadays? $2500-$2600 for the new rifle and barrel chambered and spun on? That's twice the price of the 783 option Jerry had recommended, and for what? Which feature of the RPR makes it worth two customized 783s? To a new shooter, wouldn't that money be much better suited towards better glass or extra ammunition to practice with?
These comments are a slippery slope, because for every price point we give out, we can always say "for just a couple hundred bucks more, you could have X".
I've bought and sold several rifles over the years that were more than sufficient to compete with, but held off on shooting a competition for years because the internet said they weren't good enough. I lost out on a lot of fun and experience because I waited until I had the gear the internet said I needed to have in order to compete. While I don't doubt the people arguing 'buy the best you can, and maybe a bit more' have honorable intentions and it is sound advice, trashing viable alternatives based on options that really come down to personal preference isn't helping grow the sport.
But, back on track. I absolutely agree with Ryan, a 26" MTU contour is my go-to. It balances nicely and just feels right.
Honestly, did you not read my post? You can do up a 700 for the same price as a 783 in a chassis with a prefit barrel, or within 100 bucks, which is negligible given the cost of every other thing in this field. The difference is that with the 783 you have the option of an MDT LSS (not a chassis at all optimized for PRS, unlike say the ESS) and a Boyd's stock. 2 options, that's it. Both of those options are also available for the 700 at the same cost. You also have no trigger options. So your suggestion is to build up a less suitable rifle, at the same cost, with no ability to change things as you learn what you prefer/like so as to then have to sell said rifle if you decide you want something else? Makes no sense.
Again, no one is saying don't go shoot matches because the internet says your rig isn't suitable. That was your call. Most of us have said, take what you have to a match and shoot and have fun. But if building a rig specifically for PRS there is no reason to start off with a setup that very much limits your options going forward.
I am not going to quote your full post RLaunay as things get super long when people do that.
Kthomas (I am speaking for him so he can correct me if I am wrong) and I are just trying to save some people some dollars in the long run.
If you buy any of the budget options that I mentioned (Howa Bravo, Tikka CTR, Rem Magpul hunter) you are in it $1,200-$1,500. The Tikkas and Howas are both know to have good/great triggers and decent barrels - the Rem...well...maybe it will be great maybe not.
Buy the 783 - $499.00, add the PTG bottom metal - $225 ($145 USD + FX + Shipping), add a Boyds Stock $225 again (varies depending on model but still), add an AICS mag $110. Comes to about $1,050. If you went with the MDT LSS over the Boyd's PTG combo it may be a bit more.
Is saving $150 to $450 dollars worth that risk? Tikkas are known shooters and have an aftermarket that is nearly as good as the 700 now, if you wanted to you could customize a Tikka until your wallet ran dry.
Howa actions are also gaining some pretty solid popularity. The Bravo Chassis is also a super high value proposition (I have one).
Remington are Remingtons. The receivers themselves are almost as good as anything else out there.
Again, sticking words in Kthomas' mouth, we are not saying the 783 is garbage, we are just saying there are more logical paths that are a bit of a safer trek. Maybe one day the aftermarket will support the 783. Until then I would not be advising it as starting point for future PRS shooters.
Edited to add: Buy a cheaper Savage if you want to go that way. They have the barrel nuts and a much larger aftermarket.
I know people who run them quite well and they have built them up over time.
Edited again: By the time you shoot one match and add up your fees, ammo cost, gas, hotels, food, etc. the $200 you saved on your gun will not matter.
Kthomas (I am speaking for him so he can correct me if I am wrong) and I are just trying to save some people some dollars in the long run.
If you buy any of the budget options that I mentioned (Howa Bravo, Tikka CTR, Rem Magpul hunter) you are in it $1,200-$1,500. The Tikkas and Howas are both know to have good/great triggers and decent barrels - the Rem...well...maybe it will be great maybe not.
Buy the 783 - $499.00, add the PTG bottom metal - $225 ($145 USD + FX + Shipping), add a Boyds Stock $225 again (varies depending on model but still), add an AICS mag $110. Comes to about $1,050. If you went with the MDT LSS over the Boyd's PTG combo it may be a bit more.
Is saving $150 to $450 dollars worth that risk? Tikkas are known shooters and have an aftermarket that is nearly as good as the 700 now, if you wanted to you could customize a Tikka until your wallet ran dry.
Howa actions are also gaining some pretty solid popularity. The Bravo Chassis is also a super high value proposition (I have one).
Remington are Remingtons. The receivers themselves are almost as good as anything else out there.
Again, sticking words in Kthomas' mouth, we are not saying the 783 is garbage, we are just saying there are more logical paths that are a bit of a safer trek. Maybe one day the aftermarket will support the 783. Until then I would not be advising it as starting point for future PRS shooters.
Edited to add: Buy a cheaper Savage if you want to go that way. They have the barrel nuts and a much larger aftermarket.
I know people who run them quite well and they have built them up over time.
Edited again: By the time you shoot one match and add up your fees, ammo cost, gas, hotels, food, etc. the $200 you saved on your gun will not matter.
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RPR barrels are prefits so you don't need to get them chambered and spun on. I believe my JC Custom cost me $400 and I spun it on myself in a few hours with go and no go gauges. It wasn't hard at all.
The stock RPR barrel shoots incredibly well, it was my first PRS rifle. Lots of guys did well with stock RPR at the Got You Six match last weekend.
Used RPR seem to be in the $1200-1400 range with a new match barrel will put you around $1600-1800
I run Benchmark 26" MTU contour barrels on my rifles, they are a good weight balance like Ryan said. I would also like to add that when I started shooting PRS last year I was sucked in by the stuff I was reading from Jerry about the Rem 783 and purchased one on impulse to start a build. Once I started looking for parts to get everything coming for the build I found out real fast that I made a HUGE mistake! Trying to find parts to make that a suitable PRS rifle was impossible as nobody made anything to suit my needs and adding up the costs of everything to make the rifle half work for me was just not worth it for an action with no room to upgrade. I sold the 783 right away and ended up with a 700 barreled action. Very quickly found a great deal on a chassis and trigger and it was ready to rock. All said and done I was into it for just over $2,000 plus my optic and that rifle was capable of running with the best of them. My advice to ANY new shooter would be run what you have if that's what you need to get into the sport but I would very highly recommend that you DO NOT start a PRS build on that action as it is a waste of money and that is coming from someone that tried to go that route....
Now we are getting intelligent meaningful discussions about this topic. This produces good rational and thoughtful conclusions and I congratulate you last posters for this.
The 783 will work and is a good action. It is far better than Remington has produced in other lines for a long time and as time goes on more and more stuff will be produced for it from the aftermarket and eventually it might be considered in the same league as the Savage. Would I buy one, no I wouldn't, but it is an alternative at this time. Possibly a bit premature for some but a better alternative as time goes on.
What I have a real problem with is the unprecedented attacks on people who dare suggest that there maybe simpler, cheaper and possibly better ways to do things. This does not help our sport and the focus on the expensive bling as the only alternative is counterproductive. KT is well known for these kind of attacks instead of reasoned intelligent thoughts. That I have an issue with and why I post. If that is the only way he can communicate then he is better to stay away period.
I, personally, have found over the years that the most expensive is sometimes not the best way to go. I wish I could get back the money I spent of high end optics, for example. This is one area where the more money you spend does not get you more value! And I have had most of the high end optic brands.
It is refreshing to find some other options because the shooting world is changing so fast that it is hard to keep up. Just opting for the most expensive is a very foolish way to waste your money. We, as a sport, need people looking at all options and giving out suggestions for cheaper and better ways to do things.
However, I have found the most vitriolic attacks on this way of thinking of looking for the simpler, cheaper and possibly better things comes from the dealers of very high priced bling who are afraid to lose markets and not from dealers offering other alternatives.
The 783 will work and is a good action. It is far better than Remington has produced in other lines for a long time and as time goes on more and more stuff will be produced for it from the aftermarket and eventually it might be considered in the same league as the Savage. Would I buy one, no I wouldn't, but it is an alternative at this time. Possibly a bit premature for some but a better alternative as time goes on.
What I have a real problem with is the unprecedented attacks on people who dare suggest that there maybe simpler, cheaper and possibly better ways to do things. This does not help our sport and the focus on the expensive bling as the only alternative is counterproductive. KT is well known for these kind of attacks instead of reasoned intelligent thoughts. That I have an issue with and why I post. If that is the only way he can communicate then he is better to stay away period.
I, personally, have found over the years that the most expensive is sometimes not the best way to go. I wish I could get back the money I spent of high end optics, for example. This is one area where the more money you spend does not get you more value! And I have had most of the high end optic brands.
It is refreshing to find some other options because the shooting world is changing so fast that it is hard to keep up. Just opting for the most expensive is a very foolish way to waste your money. We, as a sport, need people looking at all options and giving out suggestions for cheaper and better ways to do things.
However, I have found the most vitriolic attacks on this way of thinking of looking for the simpler, cheaper and possibly better things comes from the dealers of very high priced bling who are afraid to lose markets and not from dealers offering other alternatives.
I disagree. Relatively higher end stuff (eg Tikka) holds its value much better then something like a tricked up 783, so if you don't end up sticking with it, you loose less when you get out. As for optics, I shot my first few PRS type matches with a gen 1 Vortex PST. Usable, yes, but once I upgraded, the overall experience (and scores) went up.
Also, once you have been competing for a couple years, you will have spent more on match fees, gas, food and accommodation then you did on even a high end rifle. Trying to improve your skills while being occupied by pinching pennies would not create an enjoyable environment, at least not for me. I wouldn't want to be hearing a cash register chime every time I fire a round.
As for it being a gear race, it doesn't have to be. I've shot the same 2 cartridges for 3 years, I know guys who change every week it seems. We have both been beaten by a 308 shooter who has been shooting the same thing for 20 years. Yes, you can find a top shooter who always has the latest and greatest, but you will also find another with more mileage on his gear then most family minivans.
Sure, you can join in the rat race, or you can find something that works, and simply work on getting yourself better.
It's hard to remain patient and diplomatic when you see the precision rifle sub forums constantly bombarded with horrible advice, all for the sake of a sale, or in other cases, due to pure inexperience.
SteveB, perhaps I could have been more diplomatic in my approach, but it's very frustrating to see how misled the members of this board are by some of the so called "experts" here. There is so much bad or misinformation here, it's quite incredible.
I personally feel for the newer members of this board and those new to the precision rifle realm on here, as they are being fed a lot of bad information. It's no wonder that the Canadian precision rifle community is about 10-15 years behind the US.
I would implore the newer shooters here to head over to Snipers Hide website, lots more experience there, and they don't tolerate fools. CGN is a lost cause if we continue with the spread of misinformation and BS that's all too rampant here.
SteveB, perhaps I could have been more diplomatic in my approach, but it's very frustrating to see how misled the members of this board are by some of the so called "experts" here. There is so much bad or misinformation here, it's quite incredible.
I personally feel for the newer members of this board and those new to the precision rifle realm on here, as they are being fed a lot of bad information. It's no wonder that the Canadian precision rifle community is about 10-15 years behind the US.
I would implore the newer shooters here to head over to Snipers Hide website, lots more experience there, and they don't tolerate fools. CGN is a lost cause if we continue with the spread of misinformation and BS that's all too rampant here.
I’ll second what KT has stated, this forum is full of miss information from guys that always end their posts with lot of options send me an email or pm blah blah blah, I for one love to see new shooters come out to matches, but when you are getting advice from ppl that have never even shot a match before and trying to push you on what they say works and they have tested in Field conditions? Where in your back yard with a shooting mat? My personal favorite is I “built” my rifle lol, first of all screwing a pre fit barrel on to and action and bolting it into a chassis is not building a rifle not even close but to each their own. To any new shooters out there that want to get in the game but are nervous feel free to hit me up I’ll gladly pass on what I’ve used and what’s worked and what has not. If you live near me or want to come out to one of our matches and try some gear I’ll help out if I can. Oh and to the op an mtu contour is s great weight for this style of rifle.
Chargerguy
CGN frequent flyer
I never did get this one. Maybe I'm missing it. I "built" my wife a set of shelves the other day, but I don't claim to be a carpenter. I've "built" engines and cars by putting all the pieces together, but I don't claim to be a mechanic. I "built" a rifle by screwing a prefit barrel to a receiver, installed a trigger, then bolted it into a chassis, but I don't claim to be a gunsmith. If I chambered and threaded the barrel myself, then assembled everything, could I use the term "built"? If a guy selects all the pieces of an AR, and puts it together, could that be a build? I think the definition of built/build perfectly describes the process of assembling a firearm. What am I missing???
