Let's Talk Big Bores

[Northern Shooter]

I thought I'd start up a conversation on all things Big Bores in respect to Canadian ownership.

1. What do you consider the minimum big bore caliber, >0.40?, >0.45?
2. What do you think of them? Any nostalgia around these cartridges and their rifles?
3. Do you own any? Hunt with it or strictly for collection?
4. Do you view these cartridges as excessive for North American game? Have you taken any North American game with one?
5. Have you travelled abroad to hunt dangerous game with these cartridges? (i.e. Africa).
6. Do you roll your own? I assume most do as many of these cartridge's cost >$10/round.
7. Which new production rifles today are continuing to offer these chamberings? The selection seems to be shrinking year after year.

As someone who owns a 45-70 and wants to step up to my next big bore, what options should I consider?

 

[emerson]

I think most big bore definitions start around .400”. I would like a 458 Win/Lott or bigger, but the $$$ doesn’t make logical sense unless I get it almost free. I would mess with a 470 double or 460Weatherby bolt if I had the chance.

 

[4fifty8]

Should start at .411" bullet dia. .405 Winchester for example. I like my .416's & .458's should handload if cost-conscious about feeding them, could manage recoil with less speed, reduced loads for plinking. Good results on game rather decisive. https://i.imgur.com/cOnKBvT.jpg / https://i.imgur.com/63EUiOv.jpg

 

[Hungry]

I’m just loving the .45-70 joy with my 1895 TSBL Trapper.





I have a bunch of 300 Grain JHP Winnie Power Point cartridges if I ever venture back in BC’s Grizzly country, but for all my deer hunting I just load up a bunch of 300 grain copper plated solid lead booolits by Campro from Tenda and Shooter’s Choice (Waterloo). The handloads exit around 1200 plus fps and that’s a fun load to shoot, too.





What’s not to like? Cowboy and hunting loads sure spice up this hobby!!

 

[BigUglyMan]

The classic definition of a big bore starts at 45. Some people want to say the 375 is a big bore. It isn't. Neither is my beloved 416 Rigby, as much as it pains me to say. And the 45-70, despite being a 45, doesn't belong in the discussion, because big bores are generally meant for settling lethal disputes with violent megafauna, and I don't care what anyone says, the 45-70 isn't the right tool for the job because of the loading specs (yes, you can load them hotter or buy boutique loads, but the vast majority are anemic).

Back to the discussion at hand.

I have a couple that meet the criteria. A Number 1H in 458 Winchester and a Merkel 470 double. I haven't killed anything with either. I bought the 470 to take on a Cape Buffalo hunt but I was thwarted by import/export rules. The opportunity to use it hasn't really presented itself since, though there's no reason that I couldn't sit in a tree and smash a black bear with it. In fact, that sounds like a smashing idea!

Likewise, I haven't killed anything with the 458. I bought it used from a guy who claimed that it was his cougar rifle in BC. My assumption (beyond that he was full of ####) is that the rifle was a) too heavy for him (wee little lad) and b) that it kicked too hard for him. I bought it, almost unused, for a song. I shot it some, but truth be told I only bought it because I wanted a falling block 45-70 but couldn't find one. I figured a falling block 458 was close enough. Two weeks later I found a nearly new 1885 and bought that too, because I was a young fellow making good money and lived a woefully undersupervised life. I carried it a bit, but never shot anything with it. Again, see my comments about the 470 for scenarios that I would use it here in NS.

I handload, because, why wouldn't you, especially at the price of stuff like the 470 ($239 plus tax for a box of 10 in 2009).

 

[medvedqc]

as the little ugly man from the east is saying the big bore should start at .45 and of course not anymore the ones that used black powder or even the 45/70 ...

i had a 458 win mag for a while then sold it because someone needed more than i ... still think the 458 win mag is still a great caliber for all the reasons described a little higher.

still think a ruger number 1 in 450/400 in 3 in is the answer for most of the shooters that want a big bore without too much recoil ...

i still remember shooting and using the soon to be banned mark v in the already banned 460 wea mag and what a shock it was even with the factory muzzle break but it worked for my boss for years and most of the outfitters/ph in CAR were using so they knew something about it and most were before that ivory hunter/ poachers ...

 

[Demonical]

I bought a CZ-550 in .458WM, had it reamed to .458Lott, by David Henry.

Mr. Henry also installed a barrel band for front sling swivel, installed stock cross bolts and glass bedded the action.

I've never shot anything but paper with it, but man it is a hoot to shoot!

One of these days I'll kill a bear or moose with it.

 

[brybenn]

I believe big bores start at .458 diameter but I also believe there's a distinction of big bores and dangerous game big bores.
I hunt with a double rifle in 4570 and a interarms mk x in 458wm. Both have taken bear and grouse for me. I reload for both and both rifles are amount my favs. I carry the double when bear baiting or tracking a bear and I hunt with it in very thick areas. In more open areas I bring my 458wm. I plan to hunt a cape Buffalo someday so I keep and use my 458wm for that purpose in mind but it makes a great deer bear and moose rifle. My double is regulated for 405gr bullets at 1600fps using rem spfn and 1550fps using hardcast and I can't really stray from that due to the regulation.
416 taylor and 450/400 3" are on my list of rifle to own but I'd consider them mid bores

 

[The Kurgan]

In terms of 45-70, Buffalo Bore makes a 405gr jacketed flat point bullet propelled at 2,000 feet per second for a tooth rattling 3,597 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That's pretty authoritative in my books. But no, its not:

.458 Win. Mag. (500 RN) w/ 4850 ft lbs ME
.458 Lott (500 RN) w/5872 ft lbs ME !
.450 Dakota (500 RN) w/6663 ft lbs ME !!
.460 Wby. Mag. (500 RN) w/ 7504 ft lbs ME !!!

and I believe the 700 NE (1000 RN) makes over 8000 ft lbs of ME !!!!

 

[leeelmer]

I am in the camp of the .458 is the start for big bores.
I love them, I have had in the past
2 diffretnt 450 3 1/4 Nitro Express rifles
458 Win Mag
458 Lott
505 gibbs
72cal muzzle loader(side by side)

I currently have a 450 Rigby in a Sako Brown Bear.
This particular rifle is by far my favorite.
It has to be one of the nicest rifles I have owned. The fit and finish is perfect, checkering is beautiful, barrel band front swivel, great open sites, very smooth action. The correct weight of rifle for this caliber.
It holds 4 down, and one in the chamber.
You can load Campro 500gr cheep, cheep bullets for practice, and then load up some good round nose rounds for hunting.
I have not put a scope on it as of yet, I am liking the open sites, but if I do, I will put a 1.5-5 Leupold on her, and get the reticle changed to a german#1 (best reticle for a big bore in my opinion)
I like the 458's as you have the opportunity to load as low as 300gr bullets all the way up to 600gr bullets, you can load them down, and load them up to retina detaching levels.
416's(though not a big bore) are more practical for this country, but not to many in Canada are buying big guns for practicality!

Once you get bigger than the 458's you run into problems finding ammo, brass, and bullets. Most can be sourced, but it is hard to find, and if you like to shoot alot(I run 400-500 rounds a year out of my big bores) then it is extremely expensive, and hard to feed them.
Though I dream of taking this rifle to the Dark continent, its more than likely a pipe dream. So for now, I will plug a couple moose with it, and I am sure a whitetail or two will get shot with her.
I even shot a few coyotes with one of my 450 nitro's it was easier on their pelts than my 223.

Live a little and get yourself a big bore and have some fun.

 

[DGY]

I don’t have any, the biggest I have is 9.3(366). It would like to have one in 450/400 or 416 Rigby these would be big bore anough for me!!

 

[Northern Shooter]

The classic definition of a big bore starts at 45. Some people want to say the 375 is a big bore. It isn't. Neither is my beloved 416 Rigby, as much as it pains me to say. And the 45-70, despite being a 45, doesn't belong in the discussion, because big bores are generally meant for settling lethal disputes with violent megafauna, and I don't care what anyone says, the 45-70 isn't the right tool for the job because of the loading specs (yes, you can load them hotter or buy boutique loads, but the vast majority are anemic).

Back to the discussion at hand.

I have a couple that meet the criteria. A Number 1H in 458 Winchester and a Merkel 470 double. I haven't killed anything with either. I bought the 470 to take on a Cape Buffalo hunt but I was thwarted by import/export rules. The opportunity to use it hasn't really presented itself since, though there's no reason that I couldn't sit in a tree and smash a black bear with it. In fact, that sounds like a smashing idea!

Likewise, I haven't killed anything with the 458. I bought it used from a guy who claimed that it was his cougar rifle in BC. My assumption (beyond that he was full of ####) is that the rifle was a) too heavy for him (wee little lad) and b) that it kicked too hard for him. I bought it, almost unused, for a song. I shot it some, but truth be told I only bought it because I wanted a falling block 45-70 but couldn't find one. I figured a falling block 458 was close enough. Two weeks later I found a nearly new 1885 and bought that too, because I was a young fellow making good money and lived a woefully undersupervised life. I carried it a bit, but never shot anything with it. Again, see my comments about the 470 for scenarios that I would use it here in NS.

I handload, because, why wouldn't you, especially at the price of stuff like the 470 ($239 plus tax for a box of 10 in 2009).

I find it funny that a .416 Rigby doesn't amount to a big bore cartridge as that was the quintessential example I always had in my head when discussing the subject, and due to the immense energy levels that it produces. I suppose I have been conflating big bore and dangerous game rifles and assumed they amounted to one and the same.

I'm curious, where has the >0.45cal criteria been defined as big bore opposed to >0.40?

 

[Northern Shooter]

The 416 Rigby seems like a real sweet spot between cost and performance. I've considered both one of those and a .458 WM as my next big bore purchase.

 

[medvedqc]

I find it funny that a .416 Rigby doesn't amount to a big bore cartridge as that was the quintessential example I always had in my head when discussing the subject, and due to the immense energy levels that it produces. I suppose I have been conflating big bore and dangerous game rifles and assumed they amounted to one and the same.

I'm curious, where has the >0.45cal criteria been defined as big bore opposed to >0.40?

John Pondoro taylor is your answer for the definition of big bore: he said large bore for .45 and over.

 

[leeelmer]

The old English gents are the ones that defined big bores back in the day, 400,416 and the like were considered mid bore.
458 and larger big bore, with the consideration of a 500gr bullet going over 2100fps(some considered that to slow to be a stopping rifle)
big bores and stopping rifles are different, though some calibers can be in both.
Stopping rifles were 458 and larger(most were 470 and bigger) throwing big chunks of lead at animals that were going to kill you at spitting distance.
Most stopping rifles were not hunting guns, they are stoppers, and most were in double rifles, not bolt actions, as your second round was there in a split second.
In my opinion stopping rifles start at 470 nitro and go up from there, 458cal are not in my opinion stoppers, though my 450 rigby with a 600 grain solid would be considered a contender.
Big bores were normally regulated at 50 or 75 meters, where mid bores would have been regulated at further distances.
375 h&h is a mid bore, and the minimum caliber allowed in most African country's for the big 5, now we all know lots of the big 5 have been killed over the years with much smaller rounds, but those were by guys that shot alot of game over there. The average safari hunter has only shot 1 or two of each African game in his lifetime, and of the big 5 more than likely only 1 of them, so they sure have not killed very many animals that can, and want to kill you, so it was decided that there needed to be a minimum caliber to hunt dangerous game, this was established for the safety of the hunter, as well as the safety of the PH and tracker.

 

[Suther]

In terms of 45-70, Buffalo Bore makes a 405gr jacketed flat point bullet propelled at 2,000 feet per second for a tooth rattling 3,597 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That's pretty authoritative in my books. But no, its not:

.458 Win. Mag. (500 RN) w/ 4850 ft lbs ME
.458 Lott (500 RN) w/5872 ft lbs ME !
.450 Dakota (500 RN) w/6663 ft lbs ME !!
.460 Wby. Mag. (500 RN) w/ 7504 ft lbs ME !!!

and I believe the 700 NE (1000 RN) makes over 8000 ft lbs of ME !!!!

Even the 416 Ruger/Rigby/Rem Mag are putting out like 5000+Ft lbs of energy, well above what the 45-70 is capable of. 400gr @ 2400fps is the goal for all 3 of those IIRC.


I don't have any big bore guns. I want to get into some bigger stuff but its not cheap and options for a lefty like myself are limited. Ruger makes a 375R in a left hand and I'm pretty sure they have made them in 416R in the past, and Zastava was making 375 H&H lefties but those all dried up a few years ago. Then there are 45-70 and 450 Marlin lever guns that are not bad as a lefty, but those two calibers don't really belong in the same discussion as the 416s and 458s IMO...

 

[hawk-i]

I think pretty much everywhere anything .400 and up is considered a big bore...366 and 375's are medium bore rifles.

45-70 is a big bore rifle, but just not one of the most powerful ones.

I've got a 44mag 1894, a 444 marlin 1895, and a 416 Ruger, all are big bore rifles but only one of the three would be used on dangerous game.

JMHO though.

 

[medvedqc]

The old English gents are the ones that defined big bores back in the day, 400,416 and the like were considered mid bore.
458 and larger big bore, with the consideration of a 500gr bullet going over 2100fps(some considered that to slow to be a stopping rifle)
big bores and stopping rifles are different, though some calibers can be in both.
Stopping rifles were 458 and larger(most were 470 and bigger) throwing big chunks of lead at animals that were going to kill you at spitting distance.
Most stopping rifles were not hunting guns, they are stoppers, and most were in double rifles, not bolt actions, as your second round was there in a split second.
In my opinion stopping rifles start at 470 nitro and go up from there, 458cal are not in my opinion stoppers, though my 450 rigby with a 600 grain solid would be considered a contender.
Big bores were normally regulated at 50 or 75 meters, where mid bores would have been regulated at further distances.
375 h&h is a mid bore, and the minimum caliber allowed in most African country's for the big 5, now we all know lots of the big 5 have been killed over the years with much smaller rounds, but those were by guys that shot alot of game over there. The average safari hunter has only shot 1 or two of each African game in his lifetime, and of the big 5 more than likely only 1 of them, so they sure have not killed very many animals that can, and want to kill you, so it was decided that there needed to be a minimum caliber to hunt dangerous game, this was established for the safety of the hunter, as well as the safety of the PH and tracker.

even the old 450 nitro express is considered a stopping caliber which the 458 win mag was the copy off ... the 375hh is not the mini caliber allowed in most countries that the is the 9.3 ... and many others do not have such a regulation ... i even see posted on many webistes minimun for CAR when hunt was permitted and there is none that can prove it to me as there no gazette (legal french term) for such a mini caliber to hunt in Central Africa Republic ... even zimbabwe as not such a thing as caliber but more energy at the muzzle ... like namibia and in both case the 9.3 can reach it.

 

[The Kurgan]

I have toyed with the idea of a big bore, but it would get so little practical use that it would likely see more use as a conversation piece as it's passed around by the beer bellies that regularly visit my house and who love to talk firearms sh!t. .

I came super close to purchasing that CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag that Prophet had listed a few months back. Hindsight is 20/20. Should have picked it up for the little it was listed for. Solid rifles.

 

[hoytcanon]

I find it funny that a .416 Rigby doesn't amount to a big bore cartridge as that was the quintessential example I always had in my head when discussing the subject, and due to the immense energy levels that it produces. I suppose I have been conflating big bore and dangerous game rifles and assumed they amounted to one and the same.

I'm curious, where has the >0.45cal criteria been defined as big bore opposed to >0.40?

To a .30-30 shooter the .416 Rigby most certainly "seems" a big bore... my own personal perspective is that a true big bore must possess two traits; first, and most obvious, it requires a "big bore." The .416 is really not a "big bore" compared to the other truly cavernous bores in this class, and I agree with BUM that they start at .458". Secondly, a big bore needs to possess prodigious energy, something that takes a shoulder shot eland off it's feet and makes a buff notice that it has been accosted. It is at the level of "energy production" where the .45-70 jumps ship. Having said that, I once owned a .45-120, and my shoulder informed me that it qualifies as a big bore. I really only have a single big bore at the moment, and it is a .458 Lott in a Ruger RSM, a nice rifle that has not seen the field and probably won't. But I recently sold a pair of No.1-H's in .458 WM, one of which swatted several black bears and a meatty prop head that was read for the table once the bullet arrived.