lever action 45/70 or 444 marlin ?

I shoot a 444XLR and love it. Was looking at a 45/70 but because I don't do reloading I was told to stick with the 444 Marlin round. It's my moose/bear gun for northern Ontario. I put a Bushenll 3200 scope on the top and have it sighted in at just over 100 yards and dead on at 200 yards. Using the 265 gr Hornady Leverevolution I have had no problems with it, I used there ballistic chart to try and get close to were I wanted.

As for ammo and ammo prices. I don't use the gun every day or weekend. This passed summer after I had it sighted in I went and bought 5 boxes of ammo from BPS and I should/hope to be good for the next few years.
 
What do you mean by "the 450 has more mv?" That doesn't even make sense. It's also incorrect.

In any event, there is no functional difference as far as the animal is concerned. Any of them will penetrate a large black bear completely through. The 444 has a slight advantage in trajectory. The leverevolution 45-70 ammo available from hornady is the cheapest factory ammo I can find for the 45-70 - it's also the most consistent and fastest. The remington 1380fps 300gr shoots the best groups though. You can load shot in a 45-70 and get about twice as much shot in the case as you can a 444 - so if you want to have some shotshells on hand for birds or pot-meat, there's an advantage there. I don't think the 450M will be around too much longer - people caught on that there's no advantage to paying an extra $5/box for ammo for the same performance as leverevolution.

Suka said:
I beg to disagree.
A 450 is a modern version of a 4570, designed by Hornady/Marlin made with a belted case so the higher performance loads cannot be chambered in a 4570. Problem with 4570 factory loads is they're very light due to the many old and lower pressure tolerance 4570's still in circulation. To put it bluntly, in terms of factory ammo, the 4570 is a wimp compared to Hornady 450 marlin ammo.(If I remember correctly, 1400fps vs 2100fps +-)

If you reload there's no practical difference between the two. 4570 fans will tout the 4570 case can hold more powder, which is true; what they won't tell you is a 450 has more mv, so the extra powder isn't "extra", it's "catchup". With the exception of brass, identical loading components are used, and if you like, load data. Neither is a "common" caliber, and whichever you get you'll have to look for ammo, or components, but it takes very little looking to find.
Browning makes a 450blr, marlin makes both. Despite 4570 fans being just as rabid as tikka fans, My best advice is between the two it comes down to a coin flip if you want a marlin, a 450 if you want a blr.

Can't help you with a 444. You can look on the marlin owners forum.
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.444 marlin

I just bought a .444 marlin for the purpose of hunting our thick second growth out here on Vancouver Island. I've been hunting 22 or 24" bolt actions since 1967, except for a 2 year stint with a buckhorn-sighted 30 30 at the start. I think I should be able to get a shot off a little quicker in the second growth which is much more prevalent these days. I picked the caliber because the arc seems flatter than a 45 70 and I can find the lever shells here.
Joe
 
katt said:
What would be he advantage of the 45/70 over the 444 marlin for taking black bear and moose or should I go to the 450 Marlin . any advise
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If you don't handload - the 450 Marlin.

If you do handload - the 450 Marlin or 45-70.

For the handloader, the 450 Marlin and 45-70 are interchangeable - they're essentially the same case, but one has a belt and the other has a rim, and neither has "stronger brass" than the other.

The 444 Marlin pales in comparison to those two both in powder capacity and bullet weights, but would do fine for both Black bear and Moose at reasonable ranges. It "shoots flatter", because its little 265gr bullet has a faster MV than most much heavier factory 45-70's, but it only matches the 450 Marlin 350gr. "Shooting flatter" is a crutch for those who won't practice and therefore know their gun, and can't estimate range.
 
joeyclimbing said:
I just bought a .444 marlin for the purpose of hunting our thick second growth out here on Vancouver Island. I've been hunting 22 or 24" bolt actions since 1967, except for a 2 year stint with a buckhorn-sighted 30 30 at the start. I think I should be able to get a shot off a little quicker in the second growth which is much more prevalent these days. I picked the caliber because the arc seems flatter than a 45 70 and I can find the lever shells here.
Joe
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If you are using it for 100yd shooting or so, you will like it very much. Fit it with a good peep, and you will like it even better.
 
For use on the little black dogs, any of the three will work. The .450 Marlin has the edge if you only use factory ammo, but the other two come into their own with handloads. When it comes to wound volume the .45 caliber guns have the advantage over the .444. How much? The frontal area of a .458" bullet is approximately 12% larger than the frontal area of a .429" bullet. Everything else, is relative. For all practical purposes, velocity is the same at the same pressure when the sectional density is the same. A 240 gr .429 bullet at 2400 suggests we can anticipate 2400 fps from a .45/70 with 273 gr bullet loaded to equal pressure. Conversely a 480 gr .458 bullet would have a similar velocity to a 420 gr .429" bullet if both were loaded to equal pressure. Finding a 420 gr .44 mould might be tough though. If the velocity is the same, and if the bullet profiles are the same, then the trajectory would be the same. Wound volume is a function of the bullet design and velocity, so provided similar bullets impacted at the same velocity, the .45 would have the advantage by 12%. By the way, the belt on the .450 Marlin does nothing for the case strength, it is simply a means of head spacing a rimless cartridge which has no shoulder.

The best big bore cartridge is none of the above, its a .458 Winchester which when down loaded can match any of the above. On the day you want more it can deliver more, a lot more! It just doesn't fit in a lever gun. If you are going to use a bolt gun or a falling block single shot to get the advantage of the .458, why not just chamber it for a .458 Lott, .450 Watts, or a .458 Ultra? Now you're playing with power.
 
I have a .444 but I usually don't shoot anything under 300gr. I just casted some 325gr WFN yesterday actually.
 
All three are more than adequate for Black Bear and Moose. Even the slow factory loaded 405 grain 45-70 will go right through a Black Bear or a Moose. I have owned seven different 45-70's both Marlin and Winchester, modern and late 1800's. I've shot them a lot and bagged several deer with them. I've not shot the 444 or the 450 Marlin. All of them will do the job just fine with factory ammo. By gum, I took my last deer with the lowly 44-40. In comparison with that, any of the three cartridges under discussion is a cannon in comparison. I've only shot one Black Bear, and that was with a 303 British, but any of these three cartridges will pound the stuffing out of a 303 British. I would say, do a little research on the history of each cartridge and then pick the one you like best. The Marlin 1895 is a good rifle. If you want something a little more nostalgic, get yourself a modern Winchester or Browning 1886 in 45-70. If you start reloading, then the 450 Marlin is utterly redundant, although I commend Marlin for introducing it, as well as the 444, and resurrecting the 45-70 several decades ago. For me, shooting is about the experience, tradition, history and not much about muzzle energy and flat trajectories. I once shot two nice 200 pound does at 180 yards with one of my 45-70's and the muzzle velocity was only 1,300 fps. The bullets went right through and I did have to aim for the spine in order to put the bullets through the heart, but what's the big deal about that? If a fellow knows the ballistics of his particular load, then he's good for at least 200 yards with any of these cartridges.
 
Having owned both 45-70's and 450 Marlin's I figured I better chime in. I could never get my 45-70's to shoot as good as the 450 marlins, and the 450also cycled much smoother. The 450 brass is stronger and I found it easier to work with longer case life. For people who shoot factory loads the 450 is a no brainer and easier to find rounds for nowadays than the 45-70. To be perfectly honest I have no use for the mild and painfully boring 45-70 factory loads that we have access to in Canada. Keep in mind that I'm in BC and I don't treestand hunt, or hunt deer with my big bores. The 450 Marlin 350 gr factory loads from hornady are hammers and will flatten moose and lrg bears out to 250 yds better than any caliber I have witnessed. So a few years ago I sold my 45-70's and picked up another 450 Marlin this time in a BLR. With the BLR I have safley loaded rounds for it that blow away any hand loaded 45-70 other than the odd ruger #1 load. This is just my opinion and my intension is not to bash the 45-70. I just firmly believe that the 450 M is a better, more modern improvement over the 45-70. I do realise that if I were to post this in a US forum I would be burned at the stake;)
 
The 450 is what i use, for a 100 yards the 3 calibers are good, the 450 will shine at 200 yards especially if you dont reload... JP
 
My vote goes to the 45/70, the most powerful of the bunch if handloaded, bullets to 600grs. For deer and bear, there may be an arguement for the .444, but the 45/70 can do anything the .444 can do with light bullets, but has the heavy bullet option.
 
Yes its harder but once in a while a sponsor get them, now is the time to stock up ,i never get caught with less than 200 rounds in my ammo safe... JP.
 
You have to appreciate a cartridge that dates back to Custer that is still in use. From my reading the 45/70 was one of the original buffalo guns and with black powder could knock down a bison a long way away-some stories talk about 800yd shots. Then again look at the relative ballistics as that should give you and idea of what you can expect from reloads. Then again a lot of guys are shooting this ancient round-one of the first to be loaded in the new brass cartridges back in the day. Didnt help Custers men though. FWIW I just ran my first shots thru my first 45/70 with Hornady Leverevolution ammo shooting a 325gr jacketed round at 2050fps. First 4 shots were in a 2in group within an inch of a crosshair bull at 100m with peeps. I can live with that. Brand new Jap Winchester falling block.
 
Actually the 45-70 was introduced in 1873 in the Springfeld Armory Trapdoor rifle.

The army decided to adopt it after watching a shooting exhibition where targets were hit repeatedly @ 2500 yards.

CC
 
Didn't read the thread - don't need to as this has been covered dozens of times all around the interweb:

- if you don't handload, it's easier to find commercial 450 Marlin that is loaded "hot"
- if you do handload, they are indistinguishable
- some say that 450 Marlin brass is "stronger" :rolleyes:
- others say that we still haven't figured out how to feed rimmed cartridges after 100+ years :rolleyes:

d:h:
 
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