I want to get a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70 for bear defense on hikes. Just wondering how much faster is a lever vs a bolt action for such a situation? I've got a few bolt actions (milsurps) but like the idea of a bigger bore slug like the 45-70 and I'm assuming the lever will allow for faster follow up shots from the standing position.
Lever vs bolt for fast follow up shots
- Thread starter Steiner
- Start date
Check out the boys doing it fast and accurate!
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125156
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125156
LeverGuns are "Faster"..... how much greatly depends on the "user"Steiner said:
While obviously not Full house bear loads I've seen some Guys empty 8 rounds from a Levergun in 6 seconds, some faster.......they can be fast.
Now having said that in the unlikely event of a True Bear attack while on a hike the 1st shot should be one's primary concern as it is likely going to be the only one you get to take
How many rounds you can spray into the dirt becomes a moot point IMO
If you are talking high powered cartridges with a healthy recoil,the biggest delay in getting off an aimed second shot,is recovering from the recoil,and getting the sighting system back on the target.An experienced shooter can cycle either a lever or a bolt action while he is recovering from the recoil.In other words,with heavy recoiling rifles,the action speed is not a great factor.That is why all of the people doing the rapid fire exhibitions use light recoiling cartridges.
Stubble - I'll probably use a factory powered round to minimize recoil (vs a handloaded hotter round).
Geo - good link, I enjoyed the read, informative. I think the 22" 45-70 Marlin will be my choice.
BC - I agree with your statements. Unlikely to experience a true bear attack. First round would be key, but it's comforting to know that a 2nd round could be readied quickly. I usually walk with longarm in hand, rarely slung - just find it more comfortable that way.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
Geo - good link, I enjoyed the read, informative. I think the 22" 45-70 Marlin will be my choice.
BC - I agree with your statements. Unlikely to experience a true bear attack. First round would be key, but it's comforting to know that a 2nd round could be readied quickly. I usually walk with longarm in hand, rarely slung - just find it more comfortable that way.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
If your concern is for fast follow up shots, don't rule out pump actions. Don't you dare tell SuperCub I said that though.
Any rifle is only going to be fast and accurate if you practice with it lots.
Using a lever I find that the cycling is less disruptive to getting on target again, as I always seemed to have more side to side movement with the pump. Both are very fast.
I've seen some extremely fast operators on bolt actions, but I find when speed matters I prefer an action where I don't have to remove my hand to cycle a round.
Any rifle is only going to be fast and accurate if you practice with it lots.
Using a lever I find that the cycling is less disruptive to getting on target again, as I always seemed to have more side to side movement with the pump. Both are very fast.
I've seen some extremely fast operators on bolt actions, but I find when speed matters I prefer an action where I don't have to remove my hand to cycle a round.
powder burner
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
A remington 870 with a mag extension and short barrel rifled for slugs would be my first choice.
But because you specified, I would take the lever.
But because you specified, I would take the lever.
Lever, it's a 2 fluid movements (push forward, pull back) as opposed to 7 different movements and having to take your trigger hand off the rifle to cycle it (hand off, grab bolt, lift up, pull back, push forward, push down, reposition hand).
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Guides choose bolt guns because they are sucked in by bolt gun hype.
That said, I think heavy recoil levels the field considerably, for ALL action types.
It comes down to the shooter, and how familiar he or she is with the firearm in question. Practice is key.
Yes, I'd take the lever gun.
That said, I think heavy recoil levels the field considerably, for ALL action types.
It comes down to the shooter, and how familiar he or she is with the firearm in question. Practice is key.
Yes, I'd take the lever gun.
The Lever Guns carry nicely and come to the shoulder very quickly. Even with extensive practice not too many of us can work a bolt as fast as a Lever and a good set of peeps on a lever makes sight aquisition very quick indeed.
My vote for defense would be Lever over Bolt Action.
Did I just vote for a Can-opener?
My vote for defense would be Lever over Bolt Action.
Did I just vote for a Can-opener?
I heard that!!cariboo_kid said:If your concern is for fast follow up shots, don't rule out pump actions. Don't you dare tell SuperCub I said that though.
A 7600 Carbine in 30/06 loaded with a 180gr Partition would be pefect for the task at hand and for a whole lot of other hunting......................... FAST/ACCURATE/DEPENDABLE!
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- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
I've got some experience with very fast , close encounter shoots in constricted areas shooting black bears.
One shot was all I was able to get off, .
Several were in very tight brush, with the firearm at the ready, one was in very low light conditions, and one was when I was inside a cabin -yes, inside!
The actions used were a bolt ( .303 Enfield) pump ( 12gM37 Ithaca),
and single shot ( break action 30/30, .500 Hawken, and .58 Hawken)
All the bears were killed with one shot , and there would have been absolutely NO TIME for a second shot, with any type of firearm.
I really think the type of action is secondary to the initial accuracy of the firstt shot, but that is just an opinion....
Cat
One shot was all I was able to get off, .
Several were in very tight brush, with the firearm at the ready, one was in very low light conditions, and one was when I was inside a cabin -yes, inside!
The actions used were a bolt ( .303 Enfield) pump ( 12gM37 Ithaca),
and single shot ( break action 30/30, .500 Hawken, and .58 Hawken)
All the bears were killed with one shot , and there would have been absolutely NO TIME for a second shot, with any type of firearm.
I really think the type of action is secondary to the initial accuracy of the firstt shot, but that is just an opinion....
Cat
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
You can practice with either type of action until you reach a level of proficiency where you can save your life with either. The question should be - "Which action can you get aimed shots off faster and make hits?" The lever has an edge with some folks, but I find the stock design of traditionally stocked lever actions increases the felt recoil when they are chambered for powerful cartridges. If you find yourself 10 feet away from a bad tempered grizzly the recoil is probably not an issue, but for day to day practice with full powered ammo it can be, and you should practice with what you hunt with.
Bolt guns can be chambered for the world's most powerful cartridges. When chambered for powerful cartridges, the marksman can become proficient with the bolt gun firing fewer rounds than is he would need to become proficient with a lever gun of similar power. The reason is that the stock design of the bolt action is more natural, handles recoil better, and aligns the eye with the sights while encouraging the rifleman to maintain a good cheek weld.
The lever gun enthusiasts will take exception to this, but if rifles of both action types were given to a complete novice, his scores would be better from the bolt gun - even if it took him slightly longer to get all his rounds down range. The initial shot - the one that matters - should be fired just as quickly from either action - provided both rifles are of similar length and weight.
In all seriousness, why does it matter which action is faster. In my experience, it seems that very few hunters work the action at the shoulder, regardless of type. If you drop the rifle from you shoulder between shots, neither action will be faster than I can get repeat shots off with a Ruger #1.
Bolt guns can be chambered for the world's most powerful cartridges. When chambered for powerful cartridges, the marksman can become proficient with the bolt gun firing fewer rounds than is he would need to become proficient with a lever gun of similar power. The reason is that the stock design of the bolt action is more natural, handles recoil better, and aligns the eye with the sights while encouraging the rifleman to maintain a good cheek weld.
The lever gun enthusiasts will take exception to this, but if rifles of both action types were given to a complete novice, his scores would be better from the bolt gun - even if it took him slightly longer to get all his rounds down range. The initial shot - the one that matters - should be fired just as quickly from either action - provided both rifles are of similar length and weight.
In all seriousness, why does it matter which action is faster. In my experience, it seems that very few hunters work the action at the shoulder, regardless of type. If you drop the rifle from you shoulder between shots, neither action will be faster than I can get repeat shots off with a Ruger #1.
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
My experience is that I can stay on target better with a pump action than a bolt or lever. However, I don't have much experience with lever guns. I would want a peep rear sight close to the back of action with a fairly large aperture.
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
John Y Cannuck ... "Guides choose guide guns because they are sucked in by lever gun hype."
Call me crazy, but something in that quote doesn't sound quite the same as what he actually said. Stir, stir, stir the pot...
Boomer - Lots of people find the lever gun shoulders so well with the sights lining up perfectly, and that is a big part of the appeal to many owners. I know that was my first impression when I tried a 30-30 for the first time. I do find the pistol grip style stock more natural for my wrist, but it took very little practice to get comfortable with the straight stock.
When doing rapid fire drills with pumps or levers I don't lower the rifle while cycling, I do the cycling as the muzzle is coming back down from the recoil. I find with bolt actions I do tend to break my cheek weld etc while cycling though, which is partly due to the extra hand movements required.
I guess it boils down to which you've practiced with more, and which fits the shape of your body best.
Call me crazy, but something in that quote doesn't sound quite the same as what he actually said.
Stir, stir, stir the pot... Boomer - Lots of people find the lever gun shoulders so well with the sights lining up perfectly, and that is a big part of the appeal to many owners. I know that was my first impression when I tried a 30-30 for the first time. I do find the pistol grip style stock more natural for my wrist, but it took very little practice to get comfortable with the straight stock.
When doing rapid fire drills with pumps or levers I don't lower the rifle while cycling, I do the cycling as the muzzle is coming back down from the recoil. I find with bolt actions I do tend to break my cheek weld etc while cycling though, which is partly due to the extra hand movements required.
I guess it boils down to which you've practiced with more, and which fits the shape of your body best.
I've just aquired a mint Rem 7600 CARBINE factory chambered in 35 Whelen which has now shed its wood furniture for composite forend and Knoxx Industries NRS pistol grip 6 position stock and wears a weaver base and Aimpoint Comp C 2X 2MOA red dot forward mounted. I wouldn't hesitate to carry this into bear country with full house 220 grain Nosler Accubonds and a ten round mag. It's going to Quebec this year as my bush/canoe moose rifle.
