Leverevolution powder-Beyond the 30-30!

Andy said:


Too many people think that since a powder is "optimized" for a certain application that its use elswhere is dangerous, e.g. Leverevolution, Alliant 410, and anything with "Clays" in its name.

More generally the common notion is that if there isn't a published load using that powder for a particular cartridge, its use is dangerous. Powder testing is very expensive and manufacturers select loads that work well from among many possibilities - they can't possibly test every powder for every cartridge. Several times I have found that an unpublished load was optimal in my rifle, e.g. Superformance in the 9.3X62, US869 in the 6.5-06, and there are many more examples from just my own experience.
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And this right here is the truth. Walk in carefully, and find the hidden treasures.
 
I dug up results from when I used Leverevolution & CFE223 in the same rifle/bullet

6.5 Grendel
100gr Nosler HPBT
LVR - 30.6grs 2571 fps
CFE223 - 30.6grs 2525 fps

So in my lot #'s, it appears CFE223 is slightly slower burning than LVR
 
todbartell said:
Rumor is, it's CFE223 labeled for the lever crowd
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This question came up on the Highroad, so somebody took the time to email Hodgdon:

This was the response I received today:

Absolutely not! This sounds like something that would be said on the internet. These two powders are completely different and not interchangeable at all.


Mike Daly

Senior Customer Service Representative

The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
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https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/are-cfe-223-and-leverevolution-the-same.830677/page-2
 
It would not surprise me if CFE 223 and LVR were simply different lots of the same powder like Red Dot and Green Dot or H335 and BLC-2.
 
Instead of conjecture or further rumor some guys reach out and ask the people who would know... BL-C (2) and H335 are also not "different lots" of the same powder. One was born of the other and is a different formulation.
 
I'm an old fella. BEEN RELOADING SINCE 1964.
IF YOU HAVE NEVER HAD A GUN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE.
I HAD IT HAPPEN TO ME, [ HOLE DRILLED THRU THE BARREL ON THE REAR SIGHT OF A 303.
YOU WILL THINK TWICE ABOUT PLAYING AROUND WITH POWDER.
LUCKILY I WAS WEARING SHOOTING GLASSES.
IT IS QUITE AN EXPERIENCES, DON'T PLAY WITH UNKNOWN TO SAVE A FEW CENTS.
YOUR EYES ARE WORTH MUCH MORE.

OLD TIMER 74
 
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todbartell said:
I dug up results from when I used Leverevolution & CFE223 in the same rifle/bullet

6.5 Grendel
100gr Nosler HPBT
LVR - 30.6grs 2571 fps
CFE223 - 30.6grs 2525 fps

So in my lot #'s, it appears CFE223 is slightly slower burning than LVR
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There are lots of caveats here: in your Lot #'s; in the 6.5 Grendel and with 30.6 grs of powder. In that situation, a 2% difference in MV can be explained by Chrono variances, Lot by Lot differences, etc. so no conclusions could be drawn. Things would be different in another cartridge and even in the 6.5 Grendel at other load levels (i.e pressures), and with other bullet weights.

All said, we can speculate with conspiracy theory fervor that some powders are just repackaged other powders, but it's best I think just to recognize that there's lots of overlap in powders and powder lots and that a given powder's "Burn Rate" is not set in stone, but varies by application.
 
colombe said:
I'm an old fella. BEEN RELOADING SINCE 1964.
IF YOU HAVE NEVER HAD A GUN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE.
I HAD IT HAPPEN TO ME, [ HOLE DRILLED THRU THE BARREL ON THE REAR SIGHT OF A 303.
YOU WILL THINK TWICE ABOUT PLAYING AROUND WITH POWDER.
LUCKILY IS WAS WEARING SHOOTING GLASSES.
IT IS QUITE AN EXPERIENCES, DON'T PLAY WITH UNKNOWN TO SAVE A FEW CENTS.
YOUR EYES ARE WORTH MUCH MORE.

OLD TIMER 74
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Your input was anticipated FULL CAPS OLD TIMER.

Andy said:
Too often the only argument some people have as to why they're correct is that: "I've been reloading for 50, 40, 30, 20 etc. years". This is the weakest of arguments and is nonsense of course. Many of those people are the "go-to" person, but there are many oldtimers who have for example "cookbook" reloaded the 30-06 and 12 ga shotgun for 50 years and that's it, hence "50 years of reloading". Most others, even if they've reloaded many more cartridges, have clung to what's published (and frightened by the fact that published loads vary!) and never had an original idea in their life. Their favourite line: "It's dangerous!".

On the other hand we've seen young bright, curious guys here on CGN, who two years into reloading, possess far more theoretical and practical knowledge that most will ever have, and yes still have both eyes and all their fingers...........
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colombe said:
I'm an old fella. BEEN RELOADING SINCE 1964.
IF YOU HAVE NEVER HAD A GUN EXPLODE IN YOUR FACE.
I HAD IT HAPPEN TO ME, [ HOLE DRILLED THRU THE BARREL ON THE REAR SIGHT OF A 303.
YOU WILL THINK TWICE ABOUT PLAYING AROUND WITH POWDER.
LUCKILY IS WAS WEARING SHOOTING GLASSES.
IT IS QUITE AN EXPERIENCES, DON'T PLAY WITH UNKNOWN TO SAVE A FEW CENTS.
YOUR EYES ARE WORTH MUCH MORE.

OLD TIMER 74
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So your saying dont play around with powders to save a few cents because you shot a rifle that had a hole drilled in the barrel and it blew up?

They are not related. Maybe you should check the guns over before shooting them.

Also have you ever shot cast bullets. You will be very surprized to see they use small amounts of pistol or shotgun powder in rifle cases.

What do you think of 8gr titegroup in a 308 case with 168gr jacketed bullet?
 
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Andy said:
There are lots of caveats here: in your Lot #'s; in the 6.5 Grendel and with 30.6 grs of powder. In that situation, a 2% difference in MV can be explained by Chrono variances, Lot by Lot differences, etc. so no conclusions could be drawn. Things would be different in another cartridge and even in the 6.5 Grendel at other load levels (i.e pressures), and with other bullet weights.

All said, we can speculate with conspiracy theory fervor that some powders are just repackaged other powders, but it's best I think just to recognize that there's lots of overlap in powders and powder lots and that a given powder's "Burn Rate" is not set in stone, but varies by application.
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Speeds were measured with a Labradar, so within 3 fps accuracy

I don't claim they're the same, just that I had read they could be the same. Visually they look pretty similar
 
woodlotowner said:
Damn. Now I will have to try it in the Frankenmauser 96 too...
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Would like to hear about it when you do.

So far I've just used it to hot-rod a .35 Remington 336. I believe the pressures are still well on the safe side of reasonable. I may go a little higher, or not. Don't believe I can overpressure it with this, but I am being conservative. I'd have to double check, but I think I'm getting about 250 fps and 200 fps over book with 180 and 200 gr. bullets.
 
B said:
Instead of conjecture or further rumor some guys reach out and ask the people who would know... BL-C (2) and H335 are also not "different lots" of the same powder. One was born of the other and is a different formulation.
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Can you supply a reference on that?

My understanding is that they are the same powder. The Slow lots are called W844 and the fast lots are 846. That is how my drums are labeled. I have marked then H335 and BLC2.
 
pacobillie said:
They likely say that for liability reasons. They have no clue how experienced or prudent you might be.
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And I am sure you have all the equipment to pressure test your loads..and that you know better than experienced balistician and chemists with years of lab experience.....looking forward to see you in the futur kaboom tread..or on fail army tv program ! lol ��

Always amazed at the ‘know better’ than the pros..and complete disregard for basic safety for oneself in behaving that way.
 
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Ganderite said:
Can you supply a reference on that?

My understanding is that they are the same powder. The Slow lots are called W844 and the fast lots are 846. That is how my drums are labeled. I have marked then H335 and BLC2.
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I stole this from another site

"Olin reduced tolerance levels for calcium carbonate in WC846 from 1% to .25% and renamed it WC844 which is pretty much current production military ball. WC846 was continued for 7.62. H335 is a commercially available rough equivalent to WC844. BL-C(2) is a commercial rough equivalent to WC846."

Since they have different proportions of ingredients I can't see how they are simply different lots. Hodgdon has said as much as well, they respond pretty quickly to questions. It's my understanding that CC is used to neutralize leftover acids. If its the only difference I suppose you could consider them effectively the same..?

I haved fired thousands of rounds through various ARs with minor cleaning and BL-C(2) has never given me any grief.
 
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todbartell said:
I dug up results from when I used Leverevolution & CFE223 in the same rifle/bullet

6.5 Grendel
100gr Nosler HPBT
LVR - 30.6grs 2571 fps
CFE223 - 30.6grs 2525 fps

So in my lot #'s, it appears CFE223 is slightly slower burning than LVR
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In what length barrel are you getting those velocities?
 
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