Light bullets with a fast twist (.223)

KDX

KDX

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If this was only a 3 shot group it would have been my best. :redface: Sadly it's 5. I'm still in the load development stage with the 1 in 7 twist .223 Model 12 LPV. This is a pic of a 5 shot group from today (100 yards) with 50gr V-Max bullets and 26.4gr Benchmark powder. I'm going to load up 12 more and go out in the next week or so and use 2 to warm up the barrel and try a 10 shot group. There is approx 80 rounds down this barrel so far. I'm thinking the two flyers are my fault. I'm hoping anyway.

IMG_2024Medium.jpg
 
I didn't want a 1 in 7 twist. I ordered a 1 in 9, but after 3 months waiting I settled for this one. If I can shoot some really small groups with this thing I'm going to go on the record saying that 'fast twist heavy bullets only' is pure malarky. It doesn't look like it's spinning the bullets apart so I think it will give the usual (excellent Savage) accuracy with any bullet weight. I had read (somewhere on here) that the reason some bullets 'disintegrate' is they get too hot from the rotational speeds and the lead melts (or something to that effect). Maybe that's with cheap bullets?
 
I have 250 Nosler 60gr Spitzers I can load up to try also. The load data that came with the box is way different that what's in my Lyman manual. I'll check Hodgdon's site for their load data. I have 1K of the 50gr V-Max's so I'm hoping they will work well with this barrel.
 
Go long/heavy. I wouldn't waste my time on 90's but bullets in the 80 grain neighborhood should absolutely rock if the barrel is a good one.
 
KDX, you are off to a great start. Were the first 3 that clustered or last three or????

If you haven't bedded that action, do so. That is a huge area for improvement.

Then keep an eye on your scale. I want my powder charges to be the same tenth (under actually). Alot of scales are +/- 0.1gr or 0.2gr worse case spread. That can lead to the type of groups you are seeing.

Also try 0.1gr above and under where you are now. That can help tighten things up. yes, powder changes that small WILL show up on paper with many 223's.

Then the usual stuff like wind, mirage, conditions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the lighter bullets in the fast twist. A 223 simply can't push them fast enough to blow up. Try this in a 22/250, and you will likely see problems.

However, do try the heavies as was suggested. The LR performance is so much better and 1000yds will prove to be not that far to reach.

Looks like you are well on your way to getting a great shooter.

Good luck and enjoy...

Jerry
 
I think it was the first 3 of that group. I had shot one 5 shot string prior to that that was 26.3gr that wasn't as good. I'm using a Caldwell Fire Control full length rest and I think I need to shoot a little more with it. I just started using a Charge Master 1500 combo and am hoping the weights are OK. I never checked the charges on a beam scale. I bought this rifle primarily to be a 300 yard and under gopher/paper rifle.
 
Shoot 2 5rds groups at 26.4, 26.5 and 26.6. Plot where every shot goes and why. If it is going to tighten up, it will do so somewhere here. If you keep getting flyers, then the work really begins.

Jerry
 
Thanks for the advice.;) Hopefully I'll get to do it in the next week. For some strange reason work interferes with my life.
 
for the 1-9 twist they like 26 grains of reloader 15, and a 69 grain sierra matchking with a remington match primer. 5 rounds in a dime at 100 yards. (work up to max load for your gun though i started at 24.5 grains and worked up to 26.
 
I don't know if 55gr are considered light, but that what I use for varmint load in my 1/9 twist Remington 26" When working this load I fired a 5 shot group in good conditions at 300y 1.15", around 27gr of Varget 3400fps, with 55gr Nosler ballistic tip bullets. I tryed other small bullets but I found the Noslers grouped the best.
 
mysticplayer said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting the lighter bullets in the fast twist. A 223 simply can't push them fast enough to blow up. Try this in a 22/250, and you will likely see problems.
Jerry
Click to expand...

You don't hear too many stories aboiut 23's disintegrating bullets with normal twists, but this is an excerpt from Clint Dahlstrom's excellent dissertation into comparing the ballistics of a 90 grain 223 load to a 308 palma load. He was using a 6.5" twist, so a 7" twist is not too far off.

When one is trying to rush a job one avoids problem areas if possible
and concentrates on the successful activities. The foregoing
discussion has omitted two problem areas. The first is that the
Sierra bullet often disintegrates within the first 100 yards when
loaded with 26 ½g of N550 (2850 fps). The group made by the
bullets that do reach the target is large. We have not investigated
this problem. Secondly we once had a problem when 2 out of 10
Berger bullets disintegrated a very few feet forward of the 1000
yard target (±2860 fps). 7 of the other 8 had ½ minute of vertical
dispersion. This happened only once perhaps because we loaded
mostly about 2830 fps thereafter.
Click to expand...

Clint is a life-long TR Shooter of considerable distinction. He has authored many excellent precision shooting treatises. He also has a very in depth scientific background and employs the principles of evidence-based research and the use of control groups.

I found his research very interesting.
 
KDX said:
If this was only a 3 shot group it would have been my best. :redface: Sadly it's 5. I'm still in the load development stage with the 1 in 7 twist .223 Model 12 LPV. This is a pic of a 5 shot group from today (100 yards) with 50gr V-Max bullets and 26.4gr Benchmark powder. I'm going to load up 12 more and go out in the next week or so and use 2 to warm up the barrel and try a 10 shot group. There is approx 80 rounds down this barrel so far. I'm thinking the two flyers are my fault. I'm hoping anyway.

IMG_2024Medium.jpg
Click to expand...

Fire a ten shot group and see if the extra holes don't just fill in the gaps in this group. A lot of the time "flyers" aren't flyers.
 
Don't feel bad about 5 shot groups.

Really, I think the origin of the 3 shot group was people trying for a good 5/10 shot group, but stopping at 3 because they're scared to put more on paper (and potentially widen their groupings) ;)
 
Super heavy for calibre bullets have been failing ever since they have been attempted (why we don't have 120 to 130gr 6mm VLD's). Bullets that need a twist faster then 7 start to get real troublesome no matter the cal. Plus these two 22cals may have had thinner jackets.

Right now, we don't seem to be able to make a bullet that is long, accurate and strong. Another obvious problem is the pressures that were being run. 2850fps is the realm of the 80gr VLD's. Pushing a 90gr to those velocities is stressing the bullet tremendously.

Wish he would give some strain guage readings. I bet they aren't 60,000psi.

Add in a long for cal barrel and you generate way too much core heat. Big pressure, long barrel times, lots of core heat. Voila, bullets go puff.

Two solutions (not desired but will work) - back off on the load, use a shorter barrel. Go with a much thicker jacket ie Berger

90gr VLD at 2600 to 2700fps in a 26 to 28" barrel would likely have little to no bullets failures. But what would the point be in that?

Light for cal bullets are stubby, have a shorter bearing surface and proportionately 'more' jacket for the length. The 55gr Vmax have been pushed to above 3800fps with zero problems.

Couldn't find the article but remember someone using a monster barrel burner pushing to over 4100fps.

These bullets can withstand WAY more rotational speed without blowing up.

Jerry
 
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