Light conicals in a slow twist 54 cal BP rifle?

[Tudenom]

Hey guys

I’m looking for a speed edge in a shooting competition and I’m thinking about trying a lightweight conical in my muzzleloader that has the wrong twist rate. My rifle is set up for patch and ball with something like a 1:70 ‘sh twist rate, do you think thats too slow to even attempt a conical?

I need to hit an 8” bull at 50 metres, so accuracy isn’t a primary concern. People are doing this competition with smooth bores, so I can’t imagine my situation being any worse.

Supplies are all dried up so I’ll need to cast my own. I can get my hands on a 300 grain LEE REAL conical mould, but if the concept is a hopeless one I don’t want to bother.

Has anyone tried something like this?

 

[chasseur]

From what I ve read the real bullets do work in slow twist barrels but you need to use the lower grain weight version for the caliber you are using.Most real bullets came in two grain weights a lighter version and a heavier one.You just have to play with your powder charge until you get the right load.Also the real bullets don t load as fast as minie bullets especially with a dirty bore so I don t don t know if they will give you the speed edge you are looking for

 

[mooncoon]

you need to calculate the longest projectile that your twist rate will stabilize. You can calculate that using the Greenhill Formula which is L(ength) = 150 x D(iameter) squared all divided by T(wist) with all units in inches. You should use a slug a little shorter than the maximum length the formula suggests. Also keep in mind that a good shot with a flintlock smoothbore and no rear sight can closely match a rifle out to about 75 yards

cheers mooncoon

 

[Denisb]

Unless your barrel is worn out or your ball/patch combo completely wrong hitting an 8" target at 50m should be fairly easy. I'd work on finding the right patch thickness for the ball you're using. Time at the range is your friend here. A decent load should group less.then 8" at 100m no problem.

 

[MC One Shot]

If you are shooting in a competition against smoothbores, you wish to find out what the rules are ahead of the competition. It may most likely be patched round balls only... Your ROT will give your round ball the advantage here in accuracy providing you have the righht thickness patch...

 

[8ball]

Had a Lyman Great Plains rifle in .54 with a 1/62" twist. Out of two packs of twelve I still have this one and yes those prices had changed. At the range I used to try out the first box loaded with 80gr to 120gr of FFg those 325 grains "conicals" made for slow twist barrels. I was happy to try those out at the range first, not in a hunt. Very accurate for 8" bull at... 5 yards, not 50. The accuracy was about one Barn Of Angle... I did stick to patched round balls after this test.

 

[Tudenom]

Hmmm, I can clarify some of these questions:

The competition has sub divisions, one of which is the muzzleloader category, and as long as it's a muzzleloader you're good to go. There's no limits on optics, loading styles, or types of muzzleloader.

An 8" target is set at 50m, and you fire one shot in each position:

1 shot standing,
1 shot kneeling,
1 shot prone, and
1 shot sitting.
​

Your run is filmed and uploaded to youtube or some other social media site, the score is a balance between the number of hits and your total time:

number of hits x 500 / your time in seconds​

As you can see, time is of the essence, and I'm looking for any advantage I can get. Right now the match is being dominated by rifles like the Baker rifle, i.e. rifles using and designed for fast loading conical bullets.

 

[Tudenom]

you need to calculate the longest projectile that your twist rate will stabilize. You can calculate that using the Greenhill Formula which is L(ength) = 150 x D(iameter) squared all divided by T(wist) with all units in inches. You should use a slug a little shorter than the maximum length the formula suggests. Also keep in mind that a good shot with a flintlock smoothbore and no rear sight can closely match a rifle out to about 75 yards

cheers mooncoon

That's an interesting formula, thank you. Looks like it's best to keep a bullet down to 5/8" long for a 54 cal with a 1:70'ish twist.

150 x (0.54x0.54)
--------------------
70

If I had to guess, the sample 8Ball photographed might be a tad longer than 5/8" of an inch.

 

[8ball]

That's an interesting formula, thank you. Looks like it's best to keep a bullet down to 5/8" long for a 54 cal with a 1:70'ish twist.

150 x (0.54x0.54)
--------------------
70

If I had to guess, the sample 8Ball photographed might be a tad longer than 5/8" of an inch.

Yes they are ¾" long.

 

[mooncoon]

That's an interesting formula, thank you. Looks like it's best to keep a bullet down to 5/8" long for a 54 cal with a 1:70'ish twist.

150 x (0.54x0.54)
--------------------
70

If I had to guess, the sample 8Ball photographed might be a tad longer than 5/8" of an inch.

It occurs to me that you could use a loading block; a piece of wood about 1//2" thick with holes drilled in it so that you can press several patched balls into it. The patches would need to be a grease lube so they don't dry out and I would suggest trying Fluid Film which is a light grease which comes in a spray can. In use, you put a ball over the muzzle and punch it into the bore with your short starter (push it through the wood)

cheers mooncoon

 

[Grantmac]

It occurs to me that you could use a loading block; a piece of wood about 1//2" thick with holes drilled in it so that you can press several patched balls into it. The patches would need to be a grease lube so they don't dry out and I would suggest trying Fluid Film which is a light grease which comes in a spray can. In use, you put a ball over the muzzle and punch it into the bore with your short starter (push it through the wood)

cheers mooncoon

Or paper cartridges with a ball that fits just tight enough to not need a patch?

 

[saskgunowner101]

Or paper cartridges with a ball that fits just tight enough to not need a patch?

I used to make something like you're describing so I could either reload quickly in the field for a follow up shot(if needed), or to speed up loading while target shooting. IIRC, I used both butchers paper and junk newspaper. Make a tube around a dowel, fold one end and glue it. Powder in and squish/push down and tie with string. Put ball in and fold over/glue or tie with string. Obviously seating a ball with just paper around it isn't the ideal tightest fit, but it works pretty good, and quick!

 

[milsurpo]

Hmmm, I can clarify some of these questions:

The competition has sub divisions, one of which is the muzzleloader category, and as long as it's a muzzleloader you're good to go. There's no limits on optics, loading styles, or types of muzzleloader.

An 8" target is set at 50m, and you fire one shot in each position:

1 shot standing,
1 shot kneeling,
1 shot prone, and
1 shot sitting.
​

As you can see, time is of the essence, and I'm looking for any advantage I can get. Right now the match is being dominated by rifles like the Baker rifle, i.e. rifles using and designed for fast loading conical bullets.

The Baker (and Brunswick) only used, in British service, tight fitting patched balls and difficult loading was their main drawback. The P51 followed by the P53 introduced fast loading with sub-bore minies wrapped in a paper cartridge. With my P53 ammo the 20th shot slides in as easily as the first and that would be perfect for the contest you describe. At 50m, however, I might be tempted to stick with a .75" smoothbore musket using paper cartridges which load even faster.

milsurpo

 

[Lionel]

For speed loading, you will need every advantage you can get.
I would suggest that you preload paper cartridges in the old style (is it Snyder?) where you have to bite or tear off the end and pour the powder down the barrel followed by the ball with the paper doubling as the wad and patch.
The paper is nitrated, which means it is supposed to be soaked in saltpeter, but you could probably get away with shooting it dry or maybe lubed.
This should speed up your sequence, I think