That's my thinking, too...
For some reason, hunters often fret over the cost of ammo, tags and gas. Both the ammo and tags are minimal expenses and the gas you can't do anything about.
limitations of basic 'soft points' vs premium bullets....
- Thread starter manbearpig
- Start date
That's my thinking, too...
For some reason, hunters often fret over the cost of ammo, tags and gas. Both the ammo and tags are minimal expenses and the gas you can't do anything about.
never worry about the price of the whiskey or the beer though
Or the cost of their 4x4 or ATV....
This subject gets far too much press. Premiums have their place in my scheme of things, that is, practically any big game I shoot. The Partition and lately the Accubond & TSX are such reliable bullets that I am confident that they will work at odd angles, and short ranges at high velocities just fine. I know that they are unnecessary for deer in my 300 Savage, but the 150 Partition is still my bullet of choice. Same goes for the 150 Partition in my 7x57. Since I practice shooting skills with less expensive bullets, I don't sweat the half box for resighting in the fall, and the 1-2 rounds it takes to kill game. Last fall....5 animals on the ground with 5 shots fired, range from 60 yards to 600 yards, All with premium bullets. Regards, Eagleye.
Bullet placement is my number 1 priority. This being said, I am only human, and I can not hit the exact spot on an animal that I want to, every time with 100% certainty. Given my choice of caliber and bullet weight (a .375 H+H with 260 grn boattails) I don't see a problem with a ballistic tip and quicker expansion. It's probably going to go right through anything in North America anyways. And if I don't hit a game animal where I was intending to, I want to inflict enough damage that it doesn't suffer and I don't have to track!
Just my .02
Just my .02
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
I base my bullet use on experience.
I know that for example a 30-30 does not need a premium bullet for anything including moose, in Ontario.
However, I've seen spectacular failures (Other shooters) from high velocity small diameter rounds like the 243, when using standard bullets on deer.
(Two deer, one hit front shoulder, one hit in the hip, bullet exited same side. Huge surface wound. Shot again to kill)
So, when using old standards like the 308, 30-30, 30-06, I'll stay with the standard Hornady Interlock type bullet.
If I take say my 6.5X55 out for moose, I'll likely be toting a premium.
I know that for example a 30-30 does not need a premium bullet for anything including moose, in Ontario.
However, I've seen spectacular failures (Other shooters) from high velocity small diameter rounds like the 243, when using standard bullets on deer.
(Two deer, one hit front shoulder, one hit in the hip, bullet exited same side. Huge surface wound. Shot again to kill)
So, when using old standards like the 308, 30-30, 30-06, I'll stay with the standard Hornady Interlock type bullet.
If I take say my 6.5X55 out for moose, I'll likely be toting a premium.
I have never killed an animal with premiums!!
No wait....all Rem Cores or Horn Interlocks are premiums as far as I'm concerned!
Then again I've only ever hunted with a magnum once & only for one year before I went back to my old faithfull .280 for moose, but even so I believe 180 Horns would have killed any moose I stumbled across. Then there's also the fact I have never hunted in dangerious game country unless you count black bears & wolves dangerious! I'm sure premiums have their place but I just haven't seen where I need it. All game animals were killed regularily from the turn of the century till what the 80s when premiums all became the rage!
Save $20-$50 per year? Is that cost significant?
Well no, so I might as well up the quality of my boots by $35 I'm sure they'll be more waterproof! & while I'm at it $35 would also buy me the next better pants, + $35 on a coat, & don't forget my truck, why $35 a month would probably buy me nice power leather heated seats, oh & my 4wh might as well be a 800 instead of a 500 would I'm sure woulda done the job but what's another $35. a month!
I have nothing against premiums, if I hunted larger tougher game than a moose or hunted big bear country I'd seriously consider them, why it'd only be another $35
No wait....all Rem Cores or Horn Interlocks are premiums as far as I'm concerned!
Then again I've only ever hunted with a magnum once & only for one year before I went back to my old faithfull .280 for moose, but even so I believe 180 Horns would have killed any moose I stumbled across. Then there's also the fact I have never hunted in dangerious game country unless you count black bears & wolves dangerious! I'm sure premiums have their place but I just haven't seen where I need it. All game animals were killed regularily from the turn of the century till what the 80s when premiums all became the rage!
Save $20-$50 per year? Is that cost significant?
Well no, so I might as well up the quality of my boots by $35 I'm sure they'll be more waterproof! & while I'm at it $35 would also buy me the next better pants, + $35 on a coat, & don't forget my truck, why $35 a month would probably buy me nice power leather heated seats, oh & my 4wh might as well be a 800 instead of a 500 would I'm sure woulda done the job but what's another $35. a month!
I have nothing against premiums, if I hunted larger tougher game than a moose or hunted big bear country I'd seriously consider them, why it'd only be another $35
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
What is a premium bullet? The trouble is that I'm a Gunnut, so by definition I have to try the new and improved but often I have come to find that there are some bullets that do a specific job conspicuously better than others. If they are premium, then so be it.
If I want a bullet that will absolutely not ricochet under any circumstances, I will choose the Nosler 55 gr .243 Ballistic tip. It is pretty tough to get a bullet to be explosive on contact, yet still offer enough penetration for humane kills. I crop geese with a rifle from time to time, and I found that light SX's and Blitz's from a .22 centerfire while deadly on a frontal shot, would break-up on the wing and not penetrate beyond that when a broadside shot was made. It's never happened with the .243 55 gr BT, so for my purposes it's the best tool for the job.
I don't very often use medium caliber rifles that drive bullets faster than 3000 fps, but we commonly see velocities for some cartridges that can reach well beyond 3000 and 3500 is no longer uncommon. Simply constructed jacketed lead core bullets were never designed to perform properly at these velocities, and this is where the "premium" bullet is not only the best option, it's the only option. With rare exception, a bullet that comes apart inside the target is a failure. Some folks believe that a bullet that grenades inside a game animal is desirable, but there are a number of problems with such performance. Most importantly, penetration is compromised and a humane kill is impossible with a head on or a going away shot, and becomes questionable on a quartering shot. The correct bullet for the job assures sufficient penetration from any angle to kill the animal cleanly.
The A-Square Bullet Triad, takes this to a highly refined degree. The triad is made up of; the Lion Load, a thin jacketed bullet with a frangible core that is designed to act like a varmint bullet inside big cats, the Dead Tough, a bonded core soft point, and the Monolithic Solid, a monometal solid. All 3 bullets when loaded to the appropriate velocity are supposed to hit the same point of aim, and at the outset I thought this was a wonderful concept. When I asked about the Lion Load when I was in Tanzania, my PH Mark Sullivan, who isn't shy about voicing his opinion, told of numerous failures of the lion load. the problem of course is that the lion is not always shot broadside, and head on the bullet would break up on the heavy bones of the head or chest. When you choose a bullet, you want it to work from any direction.
Dangerous game is another area where the premium bullet can be worth while. I carry Ben's 325 gr hard cast WFN bullets in my .44, and load them for some of my friends as well. Because this bullet outperforms anything else I've tried in a .44 magnum revolver, for my purposes it's a premium bullet. Pounder has decided he likes Ben's 480 gr FN hard cast bullets for his .458 and .45-70 rifles. Again for his purposes these are the best bullets available, so can be considered premium.
X bullets tend to bug me, but I keep buying them. If you have a heavy bullet and a light bullet in the same caliber, and the expanding portion of both bullets is the same length, the heavier bullet, which should be better on a heavy game animal, has little advantage over the lighter one, but the lighter bullet has the disadvantage of needing more velocity to penetrate to the same depth. The heavier bullet should produce a larger wound volume at lower velocity, and the bullet's integrity is surer at lower velocity. Instead a longer shank remains on the heavier X Bullet, which can negatively effect straight line penetration. I think this shows that some premium bullets aren't as good as they could be. My favorite dangerous game bullet is the .375 caliber 380 gr Rhino. At only 2300 fps from my .375 Ultra, and producing up to an inch of expansion, there is no land animal on the planet that can stand up to it.
If I ever am in a position to return to Africa, and have the doubtful need of a solid, there are some important elements to be considered. Very often solids fail, and they can fail in two ways. The first is the failure of the copper over steel jacketed lead core solid. Because the bullet strikes the target in a yaw rather than nose on, the base of the bullet often flattens, and then, especially in bullet designs with tapered noses, the bullets follows the path of least resistance and straight line penetration is compromised. The second failure is of the mono-metal bronze solids. Due to their mono-metal construction they are by necessity longer than a lead core bullet of similar profile. This additional length makes the bullet less stable during penetration as there is a tendency for long non-expanding bullets to swap ends during penetration. The best choice is to choose a lighter for caliber bullet, and boost the velocity to make up for the difference in mass. In .375 caliber a 270 gr mono solid would be a better choice than a 300 gr mono solid. The best and typically the most expensive choice is the bullet that has a heavy tungsten core. These bullets tend to be shorter in length, and the ones I know about all have parallel sides, the combination of which ensures straight line penetration.
If we leave the hunting fields and visit the bench rest shooter, we find another kind of premium bullet. This shooter's bullets must be a clone of each and every other bullet. Identical is not close enough. Could this shooter be happy with a .224 55 gr Remington PSP or a .308 165 gr Corelokt, of course not, but his Sierra MK's or his Lapua Scenars consistently hit the same hole. Sounds like premium performance.
If I want a bullet that will absolutely not ricochet under any circumstances, I will choose the Nosler 55 gr .243 Ballistic tip. It is pretty tough to get a bullet to be explosive on contact, yet still offer enough penetration for humane kills. I crop geese with a rifle from time to time, and I found that light SX's and Blitz's from a .22 centerfire while deadly on a frontal shot, would break-up on the wing and not penetrate beyond that when a broadside shot was made. It's never happened with the .243 55 gr BT, so for my purposes it's the best tool for the job.
I don't very often use medium caliber rifles that drive bullets faster than 3000 fps, but we commonly see velocities for some cartridges that can reach well beyond 3000 and 3500 is no longer uncommon. Simply constructed jacketed lead core bullets were never designed to perform properly at these velocities, and this is where the "premium" bullet is not only the best option, it's the only option. With rare exception, a bullet that comes apart inside the target is a failure. Some folks believe that a bullet that grenades inside a game animal is desirable, but there are a number of problems with such performance. Most importantly, penetration is compromised and a humane kill is impossible with a head on or a going away shot, and becomes questionable on a quartering shot. The correct bullet for the job assures sufficient penetration from any angle to kill the animal cleanly.
The A-Square Bullet Triad, takes this to a highly refined degree. The triad is made up of; the Lion Load, a thin jacketed bullet with a frangible core that is designed to act like a varmint bullet inside big cats, the Dead Tough, a bonded core soft point, and the Monolithic Solid, a monometal solid. All 3 bullets when loaded to the appropriate velocity are supposed to hit the same point of aim, and at the outset I thought this was a wonderful concept. When I asked about the Lion Load when I was in Tanzania, my PH Mark Sullivan, who isn't shy about voicing his opinion, told of numerous failures of the lion load. the problem of course is that the lion is not always shot broadside, and head on the bullet would break up on the heavy bones of the head or chest. When you choose a bullet, you want it to work from any direction.
Dangerous game is another area where the premium bullet can be worth while. I carry Ben's 325 gr hard cast WFN bullets in my .44, and load them for some of my friends as well. Because this bullet outperforms anything else I've tried in a .44 magnum revolver, for my purposes it's a premium bullet. Pounder has decided he likes Ben's 480 gr FN hard cast bullets for his .458 and .45-70 rifles. Again for his purposes these are the best bullets available, so can be considered premium.
X bullets tend to bug me, but I keep buying them. If you have a heavy bullet and a light bullet in the same caliber, and the expanding portion of both bullets is the same length, the heavier bullet, which should be better on a heavy game animal, has little advantage over the lighter one, but the lighter bullet has the disadvantage of needing more velocity to penetrate to the same depth. The heavier bullet should produce a larger wound volume at lower velocity, and the bullet's integrity is surer at lower velocity. Instead a longer shank remains on the heavier X Bullet, which can negatively effect straight line penetration. I think this shows that some premium bullets aren't as good as they could be. My favorite dangerous game bullet is the .375 caliber 380 gr Rhino. At only 2300 fps from my .375 Ultra, and producing up to an inch of expansion, there is no land animal on the planet that can stand up to it.
If I ever am in a position to return to Africa, and have the doubtful need of a solid, there are some important elements to be considered. Very often solids fail, and they can fail in two ways. The first is the failure of the copper over steel jacketed lead core solid. Because the bullet strikes the target in a yaw rather than nose on, the base of the bullet often flattens, and then, especially in bullet designs with tapered noses, the bullets follows the path of least resistance and straight line penetration is compromised. The second failure is of the mono-metal bronze solids. Due to their mono-metal construction they are by necessity longer than a lead core bullet of similar profile. This additional length makes the bullet less stable during penetration as there is a tendency for long non-expanding bullets to swap ends during penetration. The best choice is to choose a lighter for caliber bullet, and boost the velocity to make up for the difference in mass. In .375 caliber a 270 gr mono solid would be a better choice than a 300 gr mono solid. The best and typically the most expensive choice is the bullet that has a heavy tungsten core. These bullets tend to be shorter in length, and the ones I know about all have parallel sides, the combination of which ensures straight line penetration.
If we leave the hunting fields and visit the bench rest shooter, we find another kind of premium bullet. This shooter's bullets must be a clone of each and every other bullet. Identical is not close enough. Could this shooter be happy with a .224 55 gr Remington PSP or a .308 165 gr Corelokt, of course not, but his Sierra MK's or his Lapua Scenars consistently hit the same hole. Sounds like premium performance.
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back to my original question-in my 9.3x57 with a velocity of around 2100fps-will I gain any significant advantage by using a Swift bullet vs a regular Sierra soft point,or do these premium bullets require higher velocities to gain any advantage?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
At the velocity you quote, there would be no advantage if you are hunting meat. If you intended to go after a grizzly, or carry the rifle for protection, I would opt for the best bullet available.
I don't ''intend'' to go after a grizzly-it's more of question if the grizzly ''intends'' to go after me!.But-seriously-at the 2100 fps velocity ,how does a ''swift'' bullet perform in relation to a regular ''sierra '' bullet on moose-or grizzly.Is it correct that the premium bullets actually need higher velocities to perform as intended?
In Canada we did just fine when all that was available was C.I.L. then Winchester Super X and Remington Core Lokt. I am not saying that some of the premium stuff is not needed in certain circumstances and is not worth paying extra for, but marketing does make sure that one feels the need to pay more. I think that many are using premium bullets when plain jane soft points would have done the job and often would have done it better.
At 2100 there isn't ant advantage, and you probably would be better off with a speer, you would get expansion.The swift would not provide much expansion @2100.I like and use the premiums alot but in calibers that provide under about 2600fps in my experience work just as well with a speer/hornady type of bullet.
Putting premium fuel in your Kia won't make any difference, but if you are driving a Vette, then it does.
Soft points did not hold together in the 270 WSM or the 257wby, but did just fine in my 6.5x55.... It depends what you are shooting. You can't lump it all in one pile and state "you need them" or on the other side "they are a waste of money" It depends what you are shooting them out of.....
Soft points did not hold together in the 270 WSM or the 257wby, but did just fine in my 6.5x55.... It depends what you are shooting. You can't lump it all in one pile and state "you need them" or on the other side "they are a waste of money" It depends what you are shooting them out of.....
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
Over the years I have observed that when a bullet is driven faster it needs to be of better construction than a core type bullet to stay together in big game especially when bones are hit. The speed reloaders can get from a 303,300 Savage or 30-30 etc probably won't benefit from a Barnes or Partition.
Nowadays with the velocities getting faster,then a premium is the better choice. Back before any premium bullets arrived on the scene hunters usually just increased the bullet weight in their rifle for bigger game. The deer here on the Island don't need a Partition to put them in the freezer,but if I was ever lucky enough to get an elk draw then I would use the best bullet available. My choice would be the 180 Nosler Partition out of my 300 Winchester.....mmmm elk steaks.
Nowadays with the velocities getting faster,then a premium is the better choice. Back before any premium bullets arrived on the scene hunters usually just increased the bullet weight in their rifle for bigger game. The deer here on the Island don't need a Partition to put them in the freezer,but if I was ever lucky enough to get an elk draw then I would use the best bullet available. My choice would be the 180 Nosler Partition out of my 300 Winchester.....mmmm elk steaks.
Remmy core lokt gets it done for me on deer and moose.
Nothin against premium bullets though, I like them too. Always fun to try a box of something new and look forward to see how they perform. Like if a dude just really wanted to be running XP3 or something, then great. If it makes him feel good and he has confidance in his shots, then that's cool. It gets it done for him.
My favourite premium so far is the Accubond, but I really can't say I ever used a bad bullet.
Took some bad shots! But never had a bullet fail...just use your noggin.
Nothin against premium bullets though, I like them too. Always fun to try a box of something new and look forward to see how they perform. Like if a dude just really wanted to be running XP3 or something, then great. If it makes him feel good and he has confidance in his shots, then that's cool. It gets it done for him.
My favourite premium so far is the Accubond, but I really can't say I ever used a bad bullet.
Took some bad shots! But never had a bullet fail...just use your noggin.
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Hi-Standard
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Newfoundland
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Most bullets, premium or otherwise, don't show reliable expansion below 2000 fps. A premium bullet will give you confidence when you know that big bones have to be broken.
People did fine with trapper nelsons, scratchy wool long underwear, foggy optics, and mil surp combat boots.
Next thing we are going to hear is that we shoudl continue to use these instead of a comfrotable modern pack, non scratchy underwear, leupold scopes and Miendal boots...
Next thing we are going to hear is that we shoudl continue to use these instead of a comfrotable modern pack, non scratchy underwear, leupold scopes and Miendal boots...
manbearpig
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere in the Third World
HEY! whats wrong with wool?
wool is one of the things that has been working perfectly for centuries. i still wear an outer waterproof layer but nothing beats wool in terms of insulation even when soaking wet.
you get used to the scratchiness
generally i try to keep it cotton>wool>waterproof/gore-tex shell.
wool is one of the things that has been working perfectly for centuries. i still wear an outer waterproof layer but nothing beats wool in terms of insulation even when soaking wet.
you get used to the scratchiness
generally i try to keep it cotton>wool>waterproof/gore-tex shell.
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