Lions eating a live warthog: food for anti-hunting thought

bearkilr said:
Nature isn't cruel, we just perceive it to be. It's not "nice" either.

The only animal which is intentionally cruel is man.
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Nature is just nature indeed. It's been cultured out of us, our understanding of it, and now it seems cruel and harsh and dark. Really, Lions eat, and don't care if what they catch is dead or alive at the time of the feast, and there's no malice in it. It's just nature's business.
 
Those people that deem this cruel should have a look at the way livestock is raised and processed. Problem is that society has become so soft because everything is packaged and no one gets to see how it got there. I prefer hunting the woods than the supermarket meat section any day!!
 
Watch the video of the pack of Hyeenas taking down a baby Elephant. Thats the most cruel video I've seen of nature. Poor little thing wont even leave its feet while its being ripped apart.
 
jaydog said:
After watching an 800lb male grey seal rape a newborn pup and literally tear it to pieces, he didn't seem to even notice the remnants as he moved off. While you are right that Jeffery Dahmer likwly would have behaved the same, I'm happy to report that he is as far from the norm in humans as possible. My contention that humans stand alone in having ethics seems rooted in fact and from that its reasonable that we judge their behaviour differently- as hard as that feels.
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While your comment and bearkilr's comments are similar, I was responding directly to bearkilr's comment, as noted in quotes.

Standing alone in having ethics has little to do with what I was referring to. Bearkilr said that the only animal that is intentionally cruel is man. I dispute that comment because I feel (and know) it's untrue. There was a dog in my neighbourhood that was known for tormenting and killing cats. Not eating them. Killing them. It wasn't necessary for the dog's survival, and he would go seek them out simply for the kill. This meets the very definition of cruelty. So does your example of the grey seal. It was the intent of the dog to cause pain and death to the cats. Intentional cruelty. Simply because the dog doesn't write out a code of ethics before he tears a cat to shreds doesn't cause it to cease being cruel.

Mother nature is a cruel #####. I'm not proposing that we go out and form an organization called "Animal Ethics Missionary" and try to make all the animals act like Disney cartoons. But there's really nothing wrong with acknowledging that cruel acts are carried out by animals in the wild daily, for their own survival or not. I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with acknowledging that fact. Being cruel to ensure your own survival is still cruelty.
 
I've got some bison in the freezer right now. The rancher said he was culling the big old bull because he had gotten cranky and killed a couple of younger ones.
 
There is a Jane Goodall video where one of the chimps pulls a baby chimp out of its mothers arms and tears the baby's arms off in front of the mother.
It isn't on YouTube :).

http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/printmember/goo1int-1

In 1975, what did the chimp named Passion do that was unlike any other chimp behavior you'd seen?
Jane Goodall: In 1975 came the shock of Passion, and her daughter Pom, killing and eating newborn babies of females in her own community. And over about four years, ten infants disappeared newborn, of which six we knew were victims of Passion and Pom. And I thought this was totally aberrant behavior. Then both Passion and Pom had their own babies and it stopped. But more recently, we've seen exactly the same with Fifi and her daughter Fannie. So it's clearly some strange behavior. We do not understand it. But both Passion and Fifi (were) very high-ranking, otherwise, they couldn't do it.
 
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nullshine said:
While your comment and bearkilr's comments are similar, I was responding directly to bearkilr's comment, as noted in quotes.

Standing alone in having ethics has little to do with what I was referring to. Bearkilr said that the only animal that is intentionally cruel is man. I dispute that comment because I feel (and know) it's untrue. There was a dog in my neighbourhood that was known for tormenting and killing cats. Not eating them. Killing them. It wasn't necessary for the dog's survival, and he would go seek them out simply for the kill. This meets the very definition of cruelty. So does your example of the grey seal. It was the intent of the dog to cause pain and death to the cats. Intentional cruelty. Simply because the dog doesn't write out a code of ethics before he tears a cat to shreds doesn't cause it to cease being cruel.

Mother nature is a cruel #####. I'm not proposing that we go out and form an organization called "Animal Ethics Missionary" and try to make all the animals act like Disney cartoons. But there's really nothing wrong with acknowledging that cruel acts are carried out by animals in the wild daily, for their own survival or not. I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with acknowledging that fact. Being cruel to ensure your own survival is still cruelty.
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You have some interesting points and I had to think about it for a bit tonight. I'm pretty convinced that the difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom (I do consider humans 'animals') is that we do the cruelty because its cruel and we enjoy that part while most other species are cruel because they want something else (food, ###, not dying) and are oblivious to what they are doing to others in the process.

In the case of my seal, he didn't want to hurt the pup, he wanted to get his pecker wet. He might even have been 'sad' that the pup was reduced to a smear in the sand since there was nothing left to screw! The baboon eating the live impala in the video actually looks peaceful and somewhat thougthful, picking scraps of meat from the grass, as he eats while the impala struggles to get away (and die shortly obviously). While that buffalo does a royal #### move to his herdmate, I doubt he thought "ha, I'm gonna screw Ralph over and get away!".

The seal thing made me think about this exact topic quite a bit. I've worked with animals for years and have a pretty realistic view of them and their ways but the natural life of a grey seal was full of mindless violence enough to make me quite angry at the males. It took quite a bit to be able to accept them for what they are and not go about my job with a heart full of hate for their very nature.

In the end, you and I agree that animals act cruel on a daily basis. I think we differ in whether they are aware that the concept even exists. My definition involves a certain amount of premedition.
 
I do not believe animals can be intentionally cruel anymore than they can be intentionally compassionate, wolves kill for sport, I have seen it. As pointed out cats kill for sport, the cat killing dog however, I do believe is learned behavior because very few act like this, unlike cats. One thing no one here has mentioned is boredom, and many animals act badly (in our opinion) out of boredom. Wolves in an area of excess wildlife, where they are not just surviving, will kill daily because they can. I have seen the moose corpses with almost no meat consumed, and then another the next day and so on.
Cats don't care if it is a mouse or a ball of string or a golf ball, it is something to stave off boredom. The fact that it's play causes harm to the mouse is completely irrelevant to the cat and it will throw the ball of string or tennis ball and bite it, just like it does the mouse or gopher.
That bison footage was not what it appeared either, the bison coming in from the rear was charging the wolves, and quite likely attempting to assist the herdmate, it just didn't work out and the herdmate zigged when he should have zagged..........oops wolf lunch, "sorry 'bout that Ralph, thought you were gonna break left when I hit the back wolf" Bison are noted for their herd protective behavior, so I believe this was a rescue attempt gone wrong.
I do not believe that an animal has the mental capacity to form the thought process to constitute "cruel intent".
 
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