Lithgow smle lll rebuild questions

fightinghamster

fightinghamster

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Hey all, I finally got to the range with all my 303s (2 smle and a no4 all sporterised) and when shooting this lithgow smle lll from 1916 it groups at about 4 feet (yes feet) at 100 yards, I was always going to make this a project rifle but I think before I go about unsporterising it I should at least get that grouping down to a foot (not user error the other smle patterns at 5-8 inches at 100 with irons and the no4 did close to 2 with a scope)

I know the receiver is probably bad because the bolt head can rotate upwards at any point in the receiver and the headspace is pretty bad because we almost had to kick the bolt open after firing a round, there’s also a weird almost pitting on the end of the spent case and a bullet will fit completely in the muzzle ( not a great measurement tool but it’s what I have atm)

My question is, aside from the frame issues would fixing the headspace tighten up that group at all or should I try to find a barreled action to replace it, are new barrels made and able to be brought in? Should I just focus on fixing the headspace? Or replacing the receiver?

Any input and information is always appreciated
 

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I rebuild Lee Enfields and what you are describing I would part out. Either you bolt head or rail is worn. Bolt head shouldn’t flip up. Your barrel is worn out. I have a 180 gr round nose I use to gauge how tight the muzzle is. 4 foot groups says a lot. Is the muzzle worn from a cleaning rod or is the barrel worn it’s whole length? Longer bolt head or different bolt is needed. Are you getting a bright ring around the case head? Sure sign of excessive head space.
Barrel and bolt issues.
 
Snider shooter said:
I rebuild Lee Enfields and what you are describing I would part out. Either you bolt head or rail is worn. Bolt head shouldn’t flip up. Your barrel is worn out. I have a 180 gr round nose I use to gauge how tight the muzzle is. 4 foot groups says a lot. Is the muzzle worn from a cleaning rod or is the barrel worn it’s whole length? Longer bolt head or different bolt is needed. Are you getting a bright ring around the case head? Sure sign of excessive head space.
Barrel and bolt issues.
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The rail is definitely worn, I tried the other smle bolt (not when firing only to check) and the bolt head flips up also, I used a 180gr Remington corlok cartridge to check the muzzle, not sure how to check the whole bore but the rifling doesn’t look that bad and yes to the bright ring on the case
 
Not sure if it makes a difference or not but I dropped a Speer .311” sprn bullet I got for reloading and it didn’t fall down the barrel so I guess it could be worse?
 

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Are the stock screws tight ? Is the spacer under the front trigger guard screw? Without the spacer the draws get compressed and terrible accuracy. Uneven pressure and receiver and barrel. Longer bolt head would cure the head space issue. Another head may have a larger hook also. Does the rifling have square or rounded edges. That bullet you show should grab the rifling. Without having the rifle in my hands it’s guessing on why a 4 ft group.
 
Snider shooter said:
Are the stock screws tight ? Is the spacer under the front trigger guard screw? Without the spacer the draws get compressed and terrible accuracy. Uneven pressure and receiver and barrel. Longer bolt head would cure the head space issue. Another head may have a larger hook also. Does the rifling have square or rounded edges. That bullet you show should grab the rifling. Without having the rifle in my hands it’s guessing on why a 4 ft group.
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Stock is tight but I’ve never taken the stock off to look for a spacer, rifling looks kinda rounded to me but I don’t have a bore scope or anything
 
I got a different bolt from a member and the bolt head can no longer rotate up at any point except when it’s supposed to and the lock up feels way tighter, I don’t have a headspace guage to check the difference but I might take it to the range next time we go across, I greatly prefer the look of the round cocking piece on smle rifles so I’d have put one on this rifle regardless of what happens to it

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Good to hear the bolt locks down properly. One of the first things I do when I change a bolt is grab the bolt head in my fingers and push it forward and backwards to see it f any movement. Bolt is closed while doing this. If it moves it has movement I know I need a longer bolt head.
 
Snider shooter said:
Good to hear the bolt locks down properly. One of the first things I do when I change a bolt is grab the bolt head in my fingers and push it forward and backwards to see it f any movement. Bolt is closed while doing this. If it moves it has movement I know I need a longer bolt head.
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Just tried that on both bolts and couldn’t feel any play but I don’t have a more scientific way to check headspace or lockup
 
Hasn’t failed me yet. I normally use my cast bullet loads as a first test. If the cases look okay I’ll fire a full power hunting load and see if it has signs of excessive head space. No signs I’ll load the mag and fire them. Those cases are inspected. If they show no rings near the case head I know the rifle is good to shoot.
I have never used a head space gauge on a Lee Enfield, probably because I never bothered to buy one. Putting barrels and receivers together I probably should.
 
Hasn’t failed me yet. I normally use my cast bullet loads as a first test. If the cases look okay I’ll fire a full power hunting load and see if it has signs of excessive head space. No signs I’ll load the mag and fire them. Those cases are inspected. If they show no rings near the case head I know the rifle is good to shoot.
I have never used a head space gauge on a Lee Enfield, probably because I never bothered to buy one. Putting barrels and receivers together I probably should.
 
Snider shooter said:
Get all the parts and rebuild the rifle first before you start doing all the tricks to accurize your rifle. Some don’t need it.
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Figure out if it’s worth restoring first, slug the bore, check if the barrel is contacting the sporterized forend, check to see if the ways are cracked, verify a king screw bushing is there, check headspace.

If it’s not worth restoring there’s no point in buying all the parts needed to desporterize it.

The last sporterized No.4 I ended up with initially shot a buckshot pattern at 100m, after examining it in the areas I mentioned and rectifying it by bedding the ways and receiver, replacing the king screw bushing with a correct length bushing and free floating the barrel. I was able to get it to shoot a 2” group with irons.

Those videos showed me what to look for and how to address the multiple problems.
 
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Often, these old SMLE 's have eroded throats due to the cordite ammunition that was used.
If you're working with these old girls, you should be reloading and bullet casting.
Some rifles need .316 bullets, and another old Long Lee needs the bullets seated way out.
The cartridge is too long to feed from the magazine, but has put 10 into under 2.5 inches at fifty yards.
This is with a pitted bore.
 
Butcherbill said:
Figure out if it’s worth restoring first, slug the bore, check if the barrel is contacting the sporterized forend, check to see if the ways are cracked, verify a king screw bushing is there, check headspace.

If it’s not worth restoring there’s no point in buying all the parts needed to desporterize it.

The last sporterized No.4 I ended up with initially shot a buckshot pattern at 100m, after examining it in the areas I mentioned and rectifying it by bedding the ways and receiver, replacing the king screw bushing with a correct length bushing and free floating the barrel. I was able to get it to shoot a 2” group with irons.

Those videos showed me what to look for and how to address the multiple problems.
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I heard people say slug the bore but I don’t really know what that means, or how to go about doing it
 
"slug the bore" - going to force something down the bore that will conform to shape / size of that bore - you can then measure the "slug" - which will be the reverse image of that bore - grooves in bore will be like "rifling" on the slug- "rifling" in bore like grooves on the slug- about only way that I know of to get an accurate "groove-to-groove" measurement.

I have read of people using fishing lead weights - I bought some 0.375" Hornady round balls - apparently dead soft lead - not hardened lead - made for some kind of muzzle loader, I think - I set rifle on butt on floor - muzzle held in woodworker vice - set that ball on the muzzle - tap it - DO NOT HIT MUZZLE WITH HAMMER - the sides of the ball will shear off - I used a flat end punch to tap the "slug" into the muzzle - then a metal rod (polished steel) to drive the slug through, out the chamber end. I had read to NEVER use a wood dowel to drive the slug through the bore - good chance that dowel will split the long way - end up with wooden dowel wedged in the rifling - VERY FUSSY maneuver to get that out without messing up the bore rifling. Some people will wrap electrician vinyl tape around the metal rod - sometimes several wraps - every 10 or 12" - so that the metal rod does not "slap" against the rifling - over that length, a rod is going to "wow" and "flex" - do not want it striking the rifling, if you do not have a perfect ground fit to top of rifling.

A driven slug will give you the smallest diameter that it went through. If you only drive in flush at muzzle - then can get the muzzle diameter - drive in at lands and get that end diameter. Advantage of a lead slug is that it will stay exactly the same diameter for many months / years to measure - versus pouring in a "slug" of melted Cerrosafe - it shrinks first after going solid - easier to get out - then, it swells - accurate for size about one hour after it goes solid - continues to swell - will be larger diameter in a few hours / days / weeks.
 
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measuring the slug - gets all wonky with many British rifling patterns - some of them use/used odd number - 3 or 5 - riflings - meaning there is no groove directly across from another - have to have an anvil with specific angle ground - then use some trigonometry and can calculate what diameter groove to groove is - using micrometer and that anvil. For many North American bores - is even number - 2 / 4 / 6 - so can get one groove directly across from other - just use ordinary micrometer / caliper to get diameter by measuring across them.
 
Here’s a good video explaining the process, it’s not very hard to do. Last one I slugged I used a conical fishing weight, I don’t have any lead round balls.

If you cut the wooden dowel into short sections you don’t run the risk of it breaking in the barrel, short sections are stiff and don’t flex like one long piece of dowel.

 
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