Little help with a No 4 T
- Thread starter carlsbadcash
- Start date
Yes, India re-built a number of No.4T rifles over the years, Century Arms formerly of Montreal, QC imported some. These rifles are certainly less desirable to hardcore Enfield collectors and will sell for less money, but they certainly do have their place in a collection.
I have a T with the Ishy screw. It was used by the police and not the army so in very good condition. IMO it has no bearing on value and why would it? If you thought you could buy mine cheaper because of the screw then I think your head is up your A&&!
The only thing that has a bearing on price is condition, matching and maker other than that a T is a T.
The only thing that has a bearing on price is condition, matching and maker other than that a T is a T.
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One thing about the Indian No4 Ts, Most of them wear No 1 variant scopes. The Indian army aquired a whole allotment of No4 rifles and No1 scopes from the UK right after WWII and before going into Korea.
The Indians loved those rifles and it shows. They did everything they possibly could to keep those rifles in service. When it just became to much of a chore and other suitable rifles became available, they relegated them to militia and police forces. There again, they were loved and much was done to keep them in credible service condition. Again, there came a time when even the limited numbers of No4 Ts in Indian service came to an end. Many of them were in very poor condition. I went to International with Allen Lever to look at a bunch of them. There weren't a lot and as Mark stated, many were unserviceable, missing parts and scopes as well as being mismatched. It was obvious that they had been relegated as parts rifles.
In that same order, there were about 75 rifles that were still complete in the Indian version of their transit chests. They were in VG or better condition. They sold for substantially more than $600. The rifles Mark is speaking of, were later assembled with surplus parts and scopes from a number of suppliers.
Many of them were converted to the No4 MkI/3 trigger configuration as well.
The rifle enfield 303T is describing is one of the complete sets. It is in at least VG condition, inside and out. The scope had been rebuilt by the Indians before it was sold out of service. It is a very nice example of an Indian No4T. It shoots well to.
One thing I've been looking to come out, are the Pakistani "T" versions on the No4 MkII rifles they built. I know they built them into sniper rifles and I know they had a bunch they took with them when they seceded from India. It would be nice to see them made available on the surplus market. If their No4 MkII T versions shoot as well as their No4 MkII rifles, they would be a real prize.
The Indians loved those rifles and it shows. They did everything they possibly could to keep those rifles in service. When it just became to much of a chore and other suitable rifles became available, they relegated them to militia and police forces. There again, they were loved and much was done to keep them in credible service condition. Again, there came a time when even the limited numbers of No4 Ts in Indian service came to an end. Many of them were in very poor condition. I went to International with Allen Lever to look at a bunch of them. There weren't a lot and as Mark stated, many were unserviceable, missing parts and scopes as well as being mismatched. It was obvious that they had been relegated as parts rifles.
In that same order, there were about 75 rifles that were still complete in the Indian version of their transit chests. They were in VG or better condition. They sold for substantially more than $600. The rifles Mark is speaking of, were later assembled with surplus parts and scopes from a number of suppliers.
Many of them were converted to the No4 MkI/3 trigger configuration as well.
The rifle enfield 303T is describing is one of the complete sets. It is in at least VG condition, inside and out. The scope had been rebuilt by the Indians before it was sold out of service. It is a very nice example of an Indian No4T. It shoots well to.
One thing I've been looking to come out, are the Pakistani "T" versions on the No4 MkII rifles they built. I know they built them into sniper rifles and I know they had a bunch they took with them when they seceded from India. It would be nice to see them made available on the surplus market. If their No4 MkII T versions shoot as well as their No4 MkII rifles, they would be a real prize.
I’ll offer an apposing view on value. Yes the Ishy screw is going to have an affect on value. Anytime your dealing with a collectable the further you move from factory original (In this case the day it left H&H) the more the value will be diminished. How Much? Not a whole lot. It will depend more on just how much of the original rifle is still with it. Things like scope, mount, furniture, barrel and the list goes on. I could easily see an Indian service No4T being worth more than a lesser British example. The reality is it is still a No4T so no matter what it has a place in any serious Enfield collection and Indian Enfields seem to be over looked for some reason despite how important they are to the overall Enfield story.
Just my two cents.
Just my two cents.
I think you are wrong. The factors you cite are certainly most important by a very large margin, but I think if you offered two for sale with all else being equal but one was an Ishapore refurb with the screw, most buyers would pay you a little more for the other.
I had a shot at a Long Branch T sniper (rifle only) that had been owned by the Indians, for a decent price, but passed. The biggest problem is, in most cases they mess with the markings on the rifle. On that rifle, they had removed the LB serial number and replaced it with a new version, same numbers but bigger font, obviously different.
They have a strong tendency to sand markings off stocks and forends, and otherwise mess with markings.
The wood tends to be very grungy.
They don't appeal to me much. An Ishy screw is a turn off.
I only want to own things I really like.
Why should I own one when I can find real (British, Canadian), unmessed with ones?
Cantom, we are each concerned with our own personal likes and dislikes. In the case of the Ishy screw, I really don't understand why people are turned off by it. It is a genuinely acceptable addition. The Indians just do it to all of their rifles, before the stock splits, instead of after.
You're right about them sanding off a lot of markings and adding their own but that's just part of the rifle's history. As long as the rifle is functional and legitimate, it's fine by me.
In the case of enfield 303 T's rifle, it still retains the original sling, and stock. The scope is mismatched but that is normal for Indian Ts. They bought up many of the rifles as parts, rather than complete units. They did one other thing to their Ts, they roughed up the stocks to kill any chance of glare.
303T's rifle retains most of its original markings, both on the stock and receiver. His is obvously a refurb as it is a No 4 MkI/3. It also has that ugly black paint the Indians insist on slpashing on their metal.
I can also see why he doesn't want to sell it for a discount, because of the "Ishy screw".
I'm willing to bet, that screw has saved many thousands of stocks for the Indians.
You're right about them sanding off a lot of markings and adding their own but that's just part of the rifle's history. As long as the rifle is functional and legitimate, it's fine by me.
In the case of enfield 303 T's rifle, it still retains the original sling, and stock. The scope is mismatched but that is normal for Indian Ts. They bought up many of the rifles as parts, rather than complete units. They did one other thing to their Ts, they roughed up the stocks to kill any chance of glare.
303T's rifle retains most of its original markings, both on the stock and receiver. His is obvously a refurb as it is a No 4 MkI/3. It also has that ugly black paint the Indians insist on slpashing on their metal.
I can also see why he doesn't want to sell it for a discount, because of the "Ishy screw".
I'm willing to bet, that screw has saved many thousands of stocks for the Indians.
I know the ishy screw might bother me at first but if it means I can get a No 4 Mk I T for less than the price premium British or Canadian un-touched ones, then I'll certainly consider it.
I got a number of rare and interesting rifles for cheap because of collector prejudice.
The Indian additions are just more history, a nicely filled passport, of where the rifle has been and where it is now.
I got a number of rare and interesting rifles for cheap because of collector prejudice.
The Indian additions are just more history, a nicely filled passport, of where the rifle has been and where it is now.
All the 32 scopes on Indian No.4's appear to have been rebuilt and to a very high degree of workmanship. As the rifle woodwork, some has been heavily scrapped but others are very nice. The markings on some appear to be a bit dodgy with not much in a straight line, but they are a variant of the No.4T and there is a lot less of those than the British around so as to collector value????? I can see no difference except to compare condition of a beat British or a beat Indian.
In my opinion only... yes it does ....
By any chance, is it a Long Branch No.4(T) sniper?
Regards,
Doug
I'm well aware that it is not politically correct to say I don't like Indo/Pak rifles, I should say I love them all equally.
2 problems with that...I'm not overly politically correct, and I don't like em all equally.
I don't like grungy, messed with, scrubbed markings rifles.
Not afraid to say it either.
There is also another issue. The Indians tend to wring every bit of use out of weapons they can, rebuilding them, fixing them, duct taping them. So, when they decide to dump them, what is left?
Canada- We were dumping perfectly serviceable rifles into the ocean after the war. The chance of finding a good one is pretty good.
BTW, we've all heard the word "bitster". Pieced together examples. Anathema to collectors.
So you buy a LB sniper with Indian provenance. Grungy wood, Ishy Screw, Ishy No 1 sight, Brit bands, Brit safety, Brit trigger guard.
You put a new set of wood on it. But,
the forend won't have the Maltese Cross, won't have the s/n on the forend, all of the parts won't be right. But, you can put the right ones on, and then you'll have a Bitster.
They're either 100% right, or they're wrong, from a collecting standpoint.
2 problems with that...I'm not overly politically correct, and I don't like em all equally.
I don't like grungy, messed with, scrubbed markings rifles.
Not afraid to say it either.
There is also another issue. The Indians tend to wring every bit of use out of weapons they can, rebuilding them, fixing them, duct taping them. So, when they decide to dump them, what is left?
Canada- We were dumping perfectly serviceable rifles into the ocean after the war. The chance of finding a good one is pretty good.
BTW, we've all heard the word "bitster". Pieced together examples. Anathema to collectors.
So you buy a LB sniper with Indian provenance. Grungy wood, Ishy Screw, Ishy No 1 sight, Brit bands, Brit safety, Brit trigger guard.
You put a new set of wood on it. But,
the forend won't have the Maltese Cross, won't have the s/n on the forend, all of the parts won't be right. But, you can put the right ones on, and then you'll have a Bitster.
They're either 100% right, or they're wrong, from a collecting standpoint.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
3 things effect the value of any firearm:
condition, condition, condition
Having the screw may drop a buck or two, but mismatching parts will certainly change any valuation by a much greater amount.
no it is a BSA M47c
