Litz says no evidence for tuners

[grauhanen]

And that on-off feature allows for completely reproducible results? Strikes me that in its own way it would be like dismounting and remounting a scope it and expecting it to remain absolutely on zero.

It's not clear at all that remounting a tuner and expecting it to do its job is comparable to remounting a scope and expecting it to remain on zero, especially at longer distances. The use of quality QD rings may help in remounting a scope and having it close to zero, but it's not the same as using an indexed collar on a tuner. The purpose of the tuner is to have a weight set forward of the muzzle at a certain distance. An indexing collar allows for that.

If reproducible results are possible after removing and replacing a tuner, an indexed collar is the only way that it can be done. For reasons of length when transporting a rifle with a tuner, the tuner must be easily removable. A Harrell tuner add at least 2.5" to barrel length, a Starik tuner tub considerably more, at least 7.5" on the shorter one shown in the picture above.

On the other hand, if your skepticism were well-founded, the implications for the use of tuners in general is potentially quite profound.

Why? If the slightest variation in how the tuner was put back on with the indexing collar caused the tuner to be unable to produce the desired results, shooters who remove a tuner for cleaning are doomed to having to retune every time a tuner is removed. Tuners accumulate considerable detritus resulting from shooting, and the changing weight would eventually alter tuner performance. Never or rarely cleaning it is not an option.

Furthermore, if even the slightest and imperceptible change in how the tuner was put back on the rifle screwed up its performance, using inconsistent shooting platforms such as non-solid shooting benches must render tuner use utterly pointless.

Of course, no one should expect a tuner that's not replaced as closely as possible to function as it would otherwise. The indexing collar makes this possible.

 

[thump_rrr]

My only question is why they decided on a 1/2 rotation of the tuner per group?
Many tuners have 10 numbers per rotation.

 

[Toolman]

My only question is why they decided on a 1/2 rotation of the tuner per group?
Many tuners have 10 numbers per rotation.

Mine has 25 indents per rotation, and I can see changes in group size and impact locations with very little movement of the tuner. My barrel is a 25” x .900” tube and is quite sensitive.

 

[Jahnj0584]

I have considered trying a tuner, but up until now, felt I need to "level up" any other varriables such as bedding, floating and ammo.

Presently, the most accurate .22 I have is an old Brno Mod 4; so why is it so accurate? It has a super premium trigger, the action is steel pillar bedded, the barrel (while I never measured it) is straight, and about an inch in diameter, and it has a "tuning" screw which applies spriing tension to the barrel at the front of the fore-end. All these features are from the factory way back in 1956.

Does the tuning screw have any effect on grouping?

Yes it does. Loosened, which allows the barrel to free-float, opens up the groups to an inch or better at 50 yards, as it is tightened bit by bit, the groups tighten up, and about one turn before bottoming out, one ragged hole at 50 yards. This is with basic CCI STD Vel ammo.

My friend with an Anschutz built rifle also has a "tuning screw" and has observed a similar effect.

So, while I believe a tuner could certainly have an effect, it could also certainly have a negative effect.

Mixed results with tuners day to day I think can be put down to normal, as who here has not shot tighter groups one day vs another with any given rifle?

View attachment 670826

Im curious where on the barrel the scew is. Do you think it's at 1/2 or 1/3 of the way, where one would expect a node to be?

 

[Buck1950]

^ ^ Might be an alternative to $200+ tuner ? Especially on 'lower-cost' rifles.

 

[grauhanen]

Im curious where on the barrel the scew is. Do you think it's at 1/2 or 1/3 of the way, where one would expect a node to be?

The screw goes from the bottom of the stock where the front swivel is located. Below is an image from a Brno 4 that I had a few years back.



Below, the red arrow indicates the approximate location of the barrel tensioner screw, which is closer to the receiver than to the muzzle.



The barrel tensioning screw system is not widely used in smallbore rifles. Readers may take from that what they will.

 

[grauhanen]

The barrel tensioner screw is one way that rifle makers have sought to alter or improve barrel harmonics.

When tuners were first beginning to appear among .22LR shooters, Anschutz developed a magnetic tuner. It appears to have been available about 20 years ago, a time when many shooters seem to be beginning to hear about tuners in general.

This magnetic tuner hasn't been available for a long time and didn't attract much attention when it was, which no doubt was a testament to its efficacy. It is proof, however, that manufacturers will get on some band wagons if to garner sales if nothing else.

 

[grauhanen]

There were other interesting if inconclusive efforts to tame or harness barrel vibrations.

Gunsmith Jeff Madison of Mwerks in Michigan didn't want to use a muzzle device like a traditional tuner. He felt he could make a stock with a built-in tuner instead and built an aluminum stock for the Anschutz 20xx barreled action.

According to Madison, “The tuner is the ‘knob’ just in front of the trigger guard. With the barrel mounted, the action (receiver) is fully floated. The tuner itself is fixed in the stock and attaches to the Anschütz action. The tuner is a harmonic balancer of sorts and can be adjusted to change the vibration characteristics of the rifle. At first glance the tuner appears to simply be a screw that exerts pressure to the receiver. In actuality it is an eight-piece assembly that incorporates a matched pair of elastomers that can be pre-loaded as a means of vibration control. The ‘in-stock’ tuner accomplishes the same thing as a muzzle tuner, but by using the action (receiver) for tuning, this set-up provides better balance for a prone or 3P shooter.”



This design and prototype no doubt belongs to the "where are they now?" file because it doesn't seem to have made much of an impression on serious smallbore or RFBR shooters.

For more details, see h ttps://www.accurateshooter.com/stocks/rimfire-stock-with-built-in-tuner/

 

[guntech]

It is possible that all tuners are the same, but also that some way work, some not. Litz makes no claim about all tuners, just one tuner on one barrel.

They all work on the same basic principle. If one doesn't work then the rest won't either ... because the physics are the same.

I would venture the design and the installation of a tuner is very important...

Testing one rifle with one tuner is not conclusive of tuners. Too many using them in benchrest competitions to conclude they don't work.

 

[sk8snwmx]

My only question is why they decided on a 1/2 rotation of the tuner per group?
Many tuners have 10 numbers per rotation.

Mine has 25 indents per rotation, and I can see changes in group size and impact locations with very little movement of the tuner. My barrel is a 25” x .900” tube and is quite sensitive.

I shot a tuner for a while to see what would happen, it liked between about the '6.5- 7.5' range of '10' marked positions that it had, I only wasted a few bricks of Center-X on it. I found it didn't really make a difference how many turns out in length as long as it was in that area.. about '7'


From that my guess is extra weight at the muzzle was right where the most pressure the projectile was putting on the lands on that side of the barrel or vise-vera... If it was turned in the opposite range it would definitely shoot WAY worse. I'm not wasting time or ammo on it again unless Vince from the slap-chop commercial does sales for one.

I am friends with a 'pretty top tier Canadian junior rimfire coach' and a 'senior benchrest shooter' who I have had conversations with about it, and neither run tuners. or did and said it was good for 1x brand, 1x lot, 1x temp, 1x distance. You will waste a LOT of ammo if you can't get cases of that exact lot again.

 

[horseman2]

Finding the best ammunition your rifle likes is the starting point to tuner testing.
The best 5, 10 or 20 round group is probably not the best starting point to start tuner testing.
My five 10-shot groups may not meet the standards of many.
What works for me may not work for others.
When telling of my testing standards to others, one need not use much intuition to recognize the "He must be crazy" looks.
Some are too cheap to test beyond five or ten shots which probably described me many years ago.
We get smarter than we think we are too late and that probably explains why many of my rifles were sold without adequate testing.
Testing the bulk of American made ammunition is probably a waste of time and money since it can not be duplicated by lot numbers which are for company records and has no meaning to the shooter.

 

[Meroh]

The screw goes from the bottom of the stock where the front swivel is located. Below is an image from a Brno 4 that I had a few years back.



Below, the red arrow indicates the approximate location of the barrel tensioner screw, which is closer to the receiver than to the muzzle.



The barrel tensioning screw system is not widely used in smallbore rifles. Readers may take from that what they will.

I have considered trying a tuner, but up until now, felt I need to "level up" any other varriables such as bedding, floating and ammo.

Presently, the most accurate .22 I have is an old Brno Mod 4; so why is it so accurate? It has a super premium trigger, the action is steel pillar bedded, the barrel (while I never measured it) is straight, and about an inch in diameter, and it has a "tuning" screw which applies spriing tension to the barrel at the front of the fore-end. All these features are from the factory way back in 1956.

Does the tuning screw have any effect on grouping?

Yes it does. Loosened, which allows the barrel to free-float, opens up the groups to an inch or better at 50 yards, as it is tightened bit by bit, the groups tighten up, and about one turn before bottoming out, one ragged hole at 50 yards. This is with basic CCI STD Vel ammo.

My friend with an Anschutz built rifle also has a "tuning screw" and has observed a similar effect.

So, while I believe a tuner could certainly have an effect, it could also certainly have a negative effect.

Mixed results with tuners day to day I think can be put down to normal, as who here has not shot tighter groups one day vs another with any given rifle?

View attachment 670826

There seems to be a culture of "free floated" barrels, yet up until recently with the exception of some elite target rifes, constraining the barrel is some way was quite common. Even today, some traditional sporing rifles come with a pressure point that makes some contact under the barrel with the stock. Two that come to mind are Tika and Zastava, both makes have the reputation as shooters right out of the box.

Humidity and wood stocks could certainly have a negative effect since they are a hard-point of contact; barrel tensioners on the other hand use spring compresson to impart a downward force on a barrel seem to be more stable despite changes in humidity as far as my Brno is concerned. On the other hand, I free floated the barrel on my Zastava to avoid the effects of humidity and while I have yet to bed the action and chamber portion of the barrel, the rifle still prints dime sized groups at 100 yards free-floated, just like it did before free-floating, but the the point of impact did change over an inch with free floating.

Back to the Brno #4 for a moment; the barrel is 27 1/2" long, full, straight sided bull profile about an inch in diameter, and the specs say the rifle weighs 10.12 lbs. Considering this, one might not expect a tensioning screw to have much effect, yet it certainly does work.

I could see a tuner hung on or screwed on to a barrel having an immediate effect, but I would also expect that the effect would 1. instantly change the point of aim when installed, and 2. have little or no stabalizing influence when a barrel heats up, and would also likely need readjusted when changing ammo.

IMO the placibo-confidence boosting effect of installing one may provide the greatest positive effect. In this case, they work.

View attachment 674788

 

[Janeau]

Barrel tensioner were a remedy for rifle that could not shoot - because of no bedding.. poor stock or action design...ect. When all was tried to get some accuracy out of it..a pressure point was created to control the barrel harmonics. There was no way to know how much of that screw was turned and if it will stay put as barrel warmed up.Thats was a old way to fix a problem and offers no flexibility for a change of ammo.
It’s not a tuner..just a barrel tension point in an attempt to fix accuracy problem or improve it.

Gunsmith created a pressure point at the end of the stock on pencil barrel hunting rifle in the 50-60’s to help with accuracy when nothing else was working.

Very few rifle had a factory ajustable tensioner, and this only on a few odd brand Euro rifle. This is something that did not take on because it had a mitigated effect - did not work well.

There is no doubt modern free floating barrel guns are the most accurate there is. This not a culture but facts.

Has for tuner they work very well. You need to know that you are doing. I send the post to a few friends that were Olympics shooters and trainers and they all had a good chuckles about the posts here..

 

[TrxR]

Barrel tensioner were a remedy for rifle that could not shoot - because of no bedding.. poor stock or action design...ect. When all was tried to get some accuracy out of it..a pressure point was created to control the barrel harmonics. There was no way to know how much of that screw was turned and if it will stay put as barrel warmed up.Thats was a old way to fix a problem and offers no flexibility for a change of ammo.
It’s not a tuner..just a barrel tension point in an attempt to fix accuracy problem or improve it.

Gunsmith created a pressure point at the end of the stock on pencil barrel hunting rifle in the 50-60’s to help with accuracy when nothing else was working.

Very few rifle had a factory ajustable tensioner, and this only on a few odd brand Euro rifle. This is something that did not take on because it had a mitigated effect - did not work well.

There is no doubt modern free floating barrel guns are the most accurate there is. This not a culture but facts.

Has for tuner they work very well. You need to know that you are doing. I send the post to a few friends that were Olympics shooters and trainers and they all had a good chuckles about the posts here..

Remington 40x single shot .22lr's rifles had two tension screws near the front of the forearm.

 

[grauhanen]

Has for tuner they work very well. You need to know that you are doing. I send the post to a few friends that were Olympics shooters and trainers and they all had a good chuckles about the posts here..

It's growing increasingly likely that you don't know or understand as much as you think you do and as a result are misleading readers.

You claimed earlier in this thread that tuners are used by the vast majority of position shooters. Among your claims, was this declaration (in your own words): "ALL competitors and shooters have tuners. Not a single gun goes without it." (post #53)

Interestingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, when shooters and observers involved with international position shooting were asked about how widespread the use of tuners was, the replies uniformly contradicted your claims. Tuners are not used by the majority of position shooters.

As suggested in a previous post, take a look at videos of ISSF shooting. They will show that the number of shooters using tuners is not nearly as great as you suggest. Your unfounded claim might be explained if you're confusing extension tubes with tuners. Although they have some similarities in looks, they are not the same in function. There was an elaboration on this in post #65 above. Unfortunately, you abandoned the discusssion thereafter.

 

[Meroh]

Barrel tensioner were a remedy for rifle that could not shoot - because of no bedding.. poor stock or action design...ect. When all was tried to get some accuracy out of it..a pressure point was created to control the barrel harmonics. There was no way to know how much of that screw was turned and if it will stay put as barrel warmed up.Thats was a old way to fix a problem and offers no flexibility for a change of ammo.
It’s not a tuner..just a barrel tension point in an attempt to fix accuracy problem or improve it.

Gunsmith created a pressure point at the end of the stock on pencil barrel hunting rifle in the 50-60’s to help with accuracy when nothing else was working.

Very few rifle had a factory ajustable tensioner, and this only on a few odd brand Euro rifle. This is something that did not take on because it had a mitigated effect - did not work well.

There is no doubt modern free floating barrel guns are the most accurate there is. This not a culture but facts.

Has for tuner they work very well. You need to know that you are doing. I send the post to a few friends that were Olympics shooters and trainers and they all had a good chuckles about the posts here..

Poorly bedded stock/action; truth is that these rifles, back in the day were the best of the best available. That old Brno 4 of mine has steel pillar bedding, and after an application of red lead to the reciever/action it was obvious after all these years that the bedding remains exemplary. If you insist that the barrel and actions of both European and North American rifles are poor designs, I for one, and most here, would say you are full of s***. As far as changes in ammo goes, you need to sight in any precission rifle for a particular ammo and lot number. This gives you another means to adjust before twisting on the sights.

And yes, culture; bedding and free floating do not, by right of popularity, preclude other methods or technologies. Loosen the adjusting screw and the that is what you have, a solidly built, pillar-bedded, free floated barrel... despite the "perfect condition, it shoots better with the tensioning screw adjusted.

Self contained, integral rifle specific, adjustable tuner.

It's growing increasingly likely that you don't know or understand as much as you think you do and as a result are misleading readers.

You claimed earlier in this thread that tuners are used by the vast majority of position shooters. Among your claims, was this declaration (in your own words): "ALL competitors and shooters have tuners. Not a single gun goes without it." (post #53)

Interestingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, when shooters and observers involved with international position shooting were asked about how widespread the use of tuners was, the replies uniformly contradicted your claims. Tuners are not used by the majority of position shooters.

As suggested in a previous post, take a look at videos of ISSF shooting. They will show that the number of shooters using tuners is not nearly as great as you suggest. Your unfounded claim might be explained if you're confusing extension tubes with tuners. Although they have some similarities in looks, they are not the same in function. There was an elaboration on this in post #65 above. Unfortunately, you abandoned the discusssion thereafter.

Well stated.

 

[uphill7152]

I've seen folks at my range using the Tuna Can and other similar tuners on their rim fire rifles for CRPS events. The tuner doesn't seem to make much difference when shooting high quality match ammo (SK, Eley, Lapua) but does seem to tidy up groups when using more mid-tier ammunition.

All things being equal, most CRPS shooters at a match will be bringing ammunition that they have tested thoroughly and that has proven to preform the best in their barrels.

YMMV. I don't use one on my CZ 457 for matches, but I can't say that I wont in the future.

 

[grauhanen]

I don't use one on my CZ 457 for matches, but I can't say that I wont in the future.

Some might say that using triple negatives in a single sentence is more difficult than finding a tuner setting that's repeatable.

 

[Biologist]

I just watched the YouTube video of the ISSF Men's 50m 3-Position, Finals, Lima Peru 2023. (Standing, kneeling, prone). A very enjoyable event to watch, seeing the awesome range facilities, electronic scoring systems, and the amazing totally modular rifle stocks with adjustable everything. The shooters change out various stock and sight parts, and adjust heights and angles of various parts in only the few minutes allowed for the change over break between the 3 positions.

Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6ahJcgJmZM

All shooters (8 finalists) used bloop tubes of course. Some bloop tubes had tuners on them, some did not. I did not get a count of who used what.

The 1st place winner did not appear use a tuner on his rifle. The 2nd and 3rd place shooters did use a tuner on their bloop tubes. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd place shooters are lined up for photos and interviews at video time 1:10:45, if you want to skip to the end to see their rifles.

The rifles for all the finalists are shown throughout the video footage.

It could be argued that the bloop tube itself without the threaded adjustable tuner moving weight on it is still a type of tuner (in the broadest sense of the term), because its a weight on the end of the barrel that can have a dampening effect. I would argue that dampening is a type of tuning, albeit without adjustable control.

The Limbsaver Deresonator is marketed as vibration dampener, (I use them on some rimfire and centerfire rifles). It can be slid along the barrel to act similar to a tuner. Its not a precision thing (its a hunk of rubber that you measure in maybe half or quarter inch placements along the barrel, and will never be precise). But with dampening its not necessarily important to be precise if (the big "if"), the dampening reduces the amplitude of the sine wave oscillation at the muzzle. But there is no guarantee a barrel weight moved anywhere will dampen the vibration in the right place, or at all, and it could make it worse.

These world class competitors, their coaches, and equipment manufacturer sponsors have no-doubt experimented to the max with everything under the sun. And they still do different things between competitors and equipment.

In the spirit and intent of science, the experiments and hypotheses testing are still ongoing......

 

[grauhanen]

All shooters (8 finalists) used bloop tubes of course. Some bloop tubes had tuners on them, some did not. I did not get a count of who used what.



It could be argued that the bloop tube itself without the threaded adjustable tuner moving weight on it is still a type of tuner (in the broadest sense of the term), because its a weight on the end of the barrel that can have a dampening effect. I would argue that dampening is a type of tuning, albeit without adjustable control.

The Limbsaver Deresonator is marketed as vibration dampener, (I use them on some rimfire and centerfire rifles). It can be slid along the barrel to act similar to a tuner. Its not a precision thing (its a hunk of rubber that you measure in maybe half or quarter inch placements along the barrel, and will never be precise). But with dampening its not necessarily important to be precise if (the big "if"), the dampening reduces the amplitude of the sine wave oscillation at the muzzle. But there is no guarantee a barrel weight moved anywhere will dampen the vibration in the right place, or at all, and it could make it worse.

This video should help put an end to the nonsense that all or most ISSF shooters use tuners with their rifles in position shooting.

Of the eight competitors shown, only three used tuners (both Czech shooters and the Hungarian).

Of course, even those who didn't use a tuner had barrel extensions. The purpose of these is to extend the sight radius. They are not intended to alter the way the barrel performs. These rifles have top quality barrels and shoot as well as tuner-less barrels can shoot. In addition, it's worth noting that shooters at this level lot select their ammo. One shooter's ammo was Lapua X-Act, a lot made in 2020. No doubt this shooter has a supply of this lot and saves it for highest level competition.