Loading Deeper than the Ogive?

Fox

Fox

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I am looking at loading for a 30-30 bolt action, I have been toying with the idea of spitzer bullets for a while.

The gun shoots FTX bullets great but moving to something tougher (moose and bear) I want to be able to load something tougher that holds the velocity and energy down range.

I am looking at the Nosler Partition 150gr, which comes in at a length of 1.1". I found a .308 bullet last night that is a 150gr with a length just over 1.1", I loaded it up as a dummy round to just fit the maximum magazine length of 2.6". The bullet looks like it is just below the ogive, will this be ok?

I know that you lose some volume for the powder but with LVR I should still be able to get into the ball park of 2400fps.

Before anyone challenges the validity or tell me to use a bigger gun, this is for my wife, it is a gun that fits her and she shoots well.

Based on the calculators the difference between a 150gr spire point partition and a 170gr RN partition is substantial.

The 150gr partition with a muzzle velocity of 2400fps will maintain the min 1800fps to open up the partition out to 300 yards with 1072 ft lbs of energy at 300 yards and 1446 ft lbs at 150 yards, so a 150 yard moose gun. The gun being sighted in at 200 yards gives a 3in high at 100 yards and 12in low at 300 yards, not bad.

The 170gr partition with a muzzle velocity of 2250fps will hit 1400fps to open up at 300 yards with 751 ft lbs of energy at 300 yards and 1530 ft lbs at 75 yards, so a 75 yard moose gun. The gun being sighted in at 175 yards gives a 3in high at 100 yards and 20in low at 300 yards, a lot worse.
 
I need to take a picture but I need to figure out an image host again.

It does not look like much, not much different than a 50gr vMax loaded into a 222 Rem to factory COAL.

If the rounds cycle would it matter at all?
 
you might want to check with some of the expert reloader's here. if you have to seat them deeper into the case it might increase your pressure. and if you are on the limits pressure wise might be a problem.
 
wce323078 said:
you might want to check with some of the expert reloader's here. if you have to seat them deeper into the case it might increase your pressure. and if you are on the limits pressure wise might be a problem.
Click to expand...

Hence why I was asking.

The 150gr spitzer point bullet is shorter than the 160gr FTX and it is loaded 50 thou further out than the 160gr FTX as well, so less intrusion into the powder volume.

I also looked up the specs on 150gr bullets that are FN or RN, all of the manufacturers say to load them the same way. The Nosler Silver Tip is 44 thou shorter than the partition but loaded 50 thou deeper than the spitzer, so essentially the same amount of bullet into the case. I think it would be safe to use the starting load and watch for a sticky bolt while staying below max, since the volume difference is negligible.

That is my logic, asking the question though because I know what I am doing has been done before.

Thanks
 
Sound like you are trying to squeeze water from a rock.


Every cartridge has its limits, I think you will just find yourself frustrated at the end of this journey.


Get a bigger gun


Having said that, nothing wrong with a little exposed neck , just keep in mind a compressed load will up your pressure quite a bit

Start at a slight compress( just barely ) and work your load up from there looking for pressure. Not the other way around ( charge weight then seating depth.)
 
damullet said:
Sound like you are trying to squeeze water from a rock.


Every cartridge has its limits, I think you will just find yourself frustrated at the end of this journey.


Get a bigger gun


Having said that, nothing wrong with a little exposed neck , just keep in mind a compressed load will up your pressure quite a bit

Start at a slight compress( just barely ) and work your load up from there looking for pressure. Not the other way around ( charge weight then seating depth.)
Click to expand...

The load will not be compressed, it will not seat into the case any further than a normal 150gr bullet as the length is the same, just have some of the neck stick out past the bullet.

"Get a bigger gun" is not valid, please read the original post, it is my wife's gun, she shoots is well and likes it. I also do not see why a 150gr bullet moving at 2100fps is any different than a 150gr bullet moving at 2100fps, the numbers show that the 150gr at 2100fps will generate about 1500 ft lbs, which is at 150 yards with this spire point 30-30 and about 250 yards with a 308 Win, so if a 308 Win 150gr is a perfectly fine moose gun at 250 yards then a 30-30 loaded under max with a 150gr partition spitzer is identical at 150 yards. The moose will not know what cartridge the bullet came from.
 
I loaded 150's in my Savage model 340 in .30-30. It took a lot of trying different bullets, but found Remington 150's worked best. They fit in the mag and the brass perfectly. I did try some ballistic tips, but found the brass hung up on the chamber once in a while being seated so deep. I don't think at .30-30 velositys the partitions are needed. The Remington's hold together very well. I still have a bunch of them loaded at 2380 fops.k
 
There are two potential problems.

The little case mouth lip may tend to snag on something and cause feeding problems. This can be cured by trimming the case length a bit. If you take 1/10" of an inch off the neck, the seating depth will look "normal".

The other issue, when switching from a round nose to a spitzer is that the bullet will protrude more into the case and raise pressures a bit. So long as you have done a normal work up for the powder charge, this is not an issue.

The other possibility is to load both lengths, and put the longer one in the chamber and one shorter one in the mag. Two rounds is one more than she will ever need...
 
Pressure is not an issue provided your rifle is in good shape, with the 30-30. Many times I have simply fired cartridges with bullets pushed back from the tube mag's pressure in the '94. The small set back you are describing will not be an issue. The pressures in the 30-30 are not great enough for the setback to cause major concern in my experience.
A light crimp will probably solve your feeding issues.
Other cartridges of course have much higher pressures, and set back can become serious.
 
bcsteve said:
What’s wrong with the 160gr FTX? It should be as good as anything else at .30-30 speed.
Click to expand...

I am looking at something tougher than a deer, the FTX seems to be a fine bullet but it is an interlock/SST and for shooting tougher animals like bear and moose I want to go with something premium, for deer I have no problem with the FTX, the plan is to load the FTX for normal use but work up something for the bear hunt she wants to go on.
 
Ganderite said:
There are two potential problems.

The little case mouth lip may tend to snag on something and cause feeding problems. This can be cured by trimming the case length a bit. If you take 1/10" of an inch off the neck, the seating depth will look "normal".

The other issue, when switching from a round nose to a spitzer is that the bullet will protrude more into the case and raise pressures a bit. So long as you have done a normal work up for the powder charge, this is not an issue.

The other possibility is to load both lengths, and put the longer one in the chamber and one shorter one in the mag. Two rounds is one more than she will ever need...
Click to expand...

I was concerned about the bullet protruding into the case, so I thought I would start out at the 160gr FTX starting loads as the length of that bullet is actually longer than the 150gr partition. Then I started looking at bullet lengths and realized that the 150gr Nosler Silvertip RN is 34 thou shorter than the partition but much longer than most 150gr RN bullets from other manufacturers. The Nosler data shows a max of 1gr under that of other bullet designs, well under the work up to maximums. Due to this I think I would be safe with the starting loads for any 150gr data.

I noticed that anything longer than the mag will fit will get stuck when unloading loaded rounds, not good, so fit to mag looks like the best option.

Another thought I had on the case mouth was to put a roll crimp on it, no the Lee Factory crimp but a standard crimp with the Lee dies, this would remove the sharp edge, as this would be safe outside of crimping into the bullet.
 
My concern would be that the premium bullets may not open up at the speeds the 3030 can shoot (may perform like FMJ's) - whereas the factory 170's and the FTX which are made for that gun, may be the best option.
You could load your desired bullet then go line up 5-8 water bags/jugs and shoot them at desired distance - and check out what the bullet is doing (xLarge ziplock filled with water work good!).
Then load / use the bullet that has the best expansion.
 
chrismc said:
My concern would be that the premium bullets may not open up at the speeds the 3030 can shoot (may perform like FMJ's) - whereas the factory 170's and the FTX which are made for that gun, may be the best option.
You could load your desired bullet then go line up 5-8 water bags/jugs and shoot them at desired distance - and check out what the bullet is doing (xLarge ziplock filled with water work good!).
Then load / use the bullet that has the best expansion.
Click to expand...

You just need to look up the spec of the premium bullet, Nosler gives a minimum for expansion of 1800fps, which would be 300 yards based on some conservative numbers.

I know what you mean though, the 30-30 specific bullets will open up more at slower speeds which would normally be found at 200 yards but that is a product of the less aerodynamic shape.

If the bullet will open up at 400 yards shot from a 308 Win then it will open up at 300 yards shot from a 30-30.

I was looking into Woodleigh bullets, the 30-30 and 30-06 bullets both claim an expansion range that starts at 2000fps, their specific 30-30 bullet does not open up at any lower velocity.
 
chrismc said:
My concern would be that the premium bullets may not open up at the speeds the 3030 can shoot (may perform like FMJ's) - whereas the factory 170's and the FTX which are made for that gun, may be the best option.
You could load your desired bullet then go line up 5-8 water bags/jugs and shoot them at desired distance - and check out what the bullet is doing (xLarge ziplock filled with water work good!).
Then load / use the bullet that has the best expansion.
Click to expand...


This would be my concern as well.

As far as your comment that some may feel the 30-30 isn't "enough" tell that to the thousands of Moose etc that have been taken cleanly with them. You may have to get a bit closer just for comfort but I've seen them taken out past 300 yards with the socalled diminutive 30-30. Supposedly some Russians feel the 7.62x39 is all you need. Bullet placement trumps every time.

I suspect that your shooting a Savage 340??? Savage 99???

One thing about the 30-30 case is that it was developed back in the day when 2X bullet diameter neck length was considered to be ideal for all sorts of reasons including accuracy and holding long heavy bullets was the norm. Today's excellent bullets don't require that much tension to keep the bullets in place under recoil in the tubular mags.

I usually load heavier bullets in my 340 simply because I'm not going to be taking shots beyond 200 yards where I hunt with it. That's my personal limitation with iron sights these days.

What's nice about the 340 is that you can use spitzer bullets and of course load to higher velocities because of the strength of the action. They're also usually better shooters than the people shooting them.

If you're worried about the ogive being below the case mouth, trim back your cases so they're short enough to alleviate this. It won't make any difference that I can see.

Good luck on your hunt. You're lucky your wife wants to go along. Luckier if she actually can pull the trigger on an animal. Many women just can't do it.

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bearhunter said:
This would be my concern as well.

As far as your comment that some may feel the 30-30 isn't "enough" tell that to the thousands of Moose etc that have been taken cleanly with them. You may have to get a bit closer just for comfort but I've seen them taken out past 300 yards with the socalled diminutive 30-30. Supposedly some Russians feel the 7.62x39 is all you need. Bullet placement trumps every time.

I suspect that your shooting a Savage 340??? Savage 99???

One thing about the 30-30 case is that it was developed back in the day when 2X bullet diameter neck length was considered to be ideal for all sorts of reasons including accuracy and holding long heavy bullets was the norm. Today's excellent bullets don't require that much tension to keep the bullets in place under recoil in the tubular mags.

I usually load heavier bullets in my 340 simply because I'm not going to be taking shots beyond 200 yards where I hunt with it. That's my personal limitation with iron sights these days.

What's nice about the 340 is that you can use spitzer bullets and of course load to higher velocities because of the strength of the action. They're also usually better shooters than the people shooting them.

If you're worried about the ogive being below the case mouth, trim back your cases so they're short enough to alleviate this. It won't make any difference that I can see.

Good luck on your hunt. You're lucky your wife wants to go along. Luckier if she actually can pull the trigger on an animal. Many women just can't do it.

TURF THE LIBERALS IN 2019

Liberals really like POOR people, they're making more of them every day

If you can't vote CPC, stay at home in protest
Click to expand...



I guess I am not too concerned with the lip as long as it cycles, it is a CIL 830, so a Savage 340 Canadian version, it is a bloody tack driver, I mounted a 3-9x40 Bushnell on it, the sights are there but the front was banged and I never bothered with a replacement.

I do not want to hot rod it at all, just make use of the new powder to get a 2400fps or so round.

Sending a PM on heavy bullets
 
I had a chance to measure the diameter of the bullet at the case mouth, comes in at 0.304", so not much to catch there, maybe a crimp would still work to round things off.

The idea is to find some 150gr .308 partitions that are cheap at a gun show or old stock to try it, either that or get another bullet that is really close in shape and length to play with, not wanting to invest in partitions if they will not physically work.
 
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