loading for the 303 and the use of premium bullets

Boer seun

Boer seun

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Hi all, Got a question for those who load for 303 brit.
First of who long does your brass last, and what are your suggestions for propellant using 174gr hornady round nose bullets?

I was discussing the use of Premium bullets with dog leg today and I got to thinking that maybe premium bullets are just another gimmick we (and I am oh so guilty) buy into. Who can honestly say that they shot a deer or other game animal deader with premiums than with other bullets? I mean why pay 40 bucks for nostler partitions if you can pay 20 for hornady interlocks.

Say you use your 270/30/06/308/7x57 or whatever you use for deer.
How much of a difference does the use of premium bullets make on that white tail?
I do not have an opinion on this yet but hope to hear yours so I can form one.
Thanks
Boer
 
first off, I'd use RL15 or Varget in the 303 with 174s. Brass life very dependant on rifle you shoot, and its headspace.

on premiums : In standard cartridges, often times vanilla softpoints work pretty darn good, especially on thin skinned light boned animals like deer. push muzzle velocity over 2800 fps though and that can stress some standard bullets, especially at close range and high impact speeds. they will overexpand and not penetrate as deep, fail to exit, no exit wound for blood trailing if needed, etc.

matching the right bullet to the game being hunted in that particular cartridge isnt rocket science.

if the Sectional Density is over .250 and muzzle velocity is 2800 fps or less, a standard bullet like an Interlock, Hot Core, Pro Hunter, etc will work fine most times, on deer size game. on bigger stuff like elk and moose, bumping bullet weight up until SD tops .270 and speeds are still under 2800 fps will get you by fine, unless you try a bad angle shot or go for heavy bone like spine and shoulders.

if your cartridge will fire a bullet over 2800 fps, better put the odds in your favor and load a premium, at least an Interbond or Accubond or grand slam.

compared to cost of fuel, tags, licenses, food, etc for a fall, paying a few bucks more for premiums isnt much of a drop in the bucket, especially if you load your own ammo. you dont have to practice all summer with X bullets or A-Frames, but sighting in with them before your hunt and trying some at longer ranges is good, and when it comes time to drop the hammer on a B&C buck, you'll be glad you didnt "cheap out" on your ammo.

I personally believe you cant load a better bullet for hunting than a Barnes Triple Shock X, which run almost a $1+ a shot, for handloads. :cool: Keep in mind my rifles get fed Hornady Interlocks all summer. ;)
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Okay I see your point but let see the old timers use to shoot moose with a 30/30 those were not premiums and I bet the so-so bullets we have now are better than the best bullets they had.
Now lets say you use a 30/06 or a 375H&H for moose or Elk. Will I stll need premiums? Now if I was to use a 7x57 loaded with 160gr bullets I will make sure those are premium.
270 and speeds are still under 2800 fps will get you by fine, unless you try a bad angle shot or go for heavy bone like spine and shoulders.
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I disagree with you here I have seen Eland, shot in the shoulder balde with a 308win now Eland is Big not as big as moose but have a heavyer bonestructure it hit the vitals and that Eland did not go far. This was a factory load and not a premium bullet as a matter of fact it was standard PMP shells.
I shot a Kudu bull at 60 yards (while it was running which means that the muscle tissue is harder) with a 270 at 60-70 yards and broke the spine with the same kind of ammo.

In a nut-shell what I am really getting to is practically do we need to use these bullets if we are using enough gun for the job at hand?

I'd like to hear your opinions
 
I always kind of consider Hornady interlocks as premium bullets! I don't shoot magnums so I can't comment on ultra high velocity.

For deer and moose you are well geared up with Hornady bullets.

As for bullets exiting the animal that in my opinion is exactly what I do not want. I want all the energy used up in the animal. Real bullet success is when you pick it from under the hide on the off side!
 
As for bullets exiting the animal that in my opinion is exactly what I do not want. I want all the energy used up in the animal. Real bullet success is when you pick it from under the hide on the off side!
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I agree with you there and I don't shoot magnums either, (what's that saying about great minds think alike:D )
Besides if your bullet does what it's suppose too you should not need an exit hole for tracking, am I right?
 
When I started hunting, I used the cheapest "hunter specials" I could find. With a clear shot they worked fine, put a few thin branches between the gun and Bambi and watch them blow up. I know there are a billion opinions on the whole brush busting thing and I'm not looking for a pissing match here but premium bullets are worth their weight in gold yet cost far less.
 
When deciding between a standard or a premium bullet you must decide what the bullet will be used for. If you are going to spend an outrageous amount of money on the hunt of a lifetime certainly the dollar you spend on a premium bullet is of little consequence. If you are using your rifle for protection of yourself, a client or the public - such as those of us here who do some bear work - the dollar you spend on a premium bullet is of little consequence. The resident hunter, who hunts small to medium size game, in a rifle chambered for a standard cartridge, probably doesn't need to use a premium bullet - in fact a premium can be a disadvantage. For example if you were to use a 7X57 on an antelope hunt, the 140 gr TSX might not encounter enough resistance to reliably open up - although it would probably be a dead antelope anyway.

In the non-premium bullets I like Remington Core-lokt's and good old Hornady's. Last weekend I shot a .75" - 5 shot group, normally I only shoot 3 shot groups, with full power 270 gr Hornady's from my .375 Ultra. I had to measure the holes in the back board as the target had just one hole where the group printed. Don't ever let anyone tell you that Hornady bullets in the right rifle won't shoot.

But, back to the resident hunter. I would say that he might benefit from the use of premiums if he uses one of the new super-magnum rifles. The problem isn't so much the muzzle velocity of the bullet which decays fairly quickly, as it is the rotational velocity at the point of impact, which does not. I think that bonded bullets are one of the best ideas to come along in recent years. They are the only design which can withstand the forces of great rotational velocity as the bullet impacts game. Even the much flaunted X-bullet will often loose it's wings under these conditions. The bonded core bullet does not only hold together ensuring full penetration, it also tends to expand to a larger diameter causing more damage while it does so. So what's the difference - a white-tail shot with a 7X57 is dead regardless of whether or not the bullet holds together. While this maybe true, it is certainly not the bullet performance we seek. A bullet which blows apart may in fact cause more meat damage than a bullet which behaves properly. Combine this with the increasing interest in long range game shooting, and the new cartridges which will drive bullets in excess of 3000 fps, the old bullet designs can't cut it.

With regards to .303 case life. Any cartridge which head spaces on a belt or rim will stretch until the shoulder contacts the shoulder of the chamber. Therefore, when resizing this brass it is important not to set the shoulder back any more than is necessary to ensure reliable bolt operation. Even so, very often the brass we get today suffers from expanded primer pockets in short order. On average I think my brass lasts perhaps 5 reloads. It might be worth your while to mark the rim of your cases with a small triangle file each time you resize a case to determine case life for yourself.
 
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bull#### on the bullet on the far side being optimum performance

when those bullets slow to a stop on the far side, they have lost all their velocity, and the wound channel shrunk as speed was lost until it is the size of the expanded bullet.

optimum bullet performace is whistling through fully expanded and exiting at high speed, and making a hole for blood to pour out. Id rather have an X bullet exit with 1200 fps and 500 ft-lbs remaining then a regular softpoint stop at the far side with zero remaining.

some people have different views, which is fine, but others just dont get it at all.

make mine a premium.

PS, 140 TSX bullets will expand on coyotes past 300 yards, let alone an antelope.
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174gr hornady round nose bullets over 39grn of IMR 4895

I use this load in all my enfields. I try to get good brass for reloading and some of my IVI brass I'm on the third reload. The brass still looks good.

Since I have a few enfields that I shoot I full lenght size ever time, so thats a lot of working the brass. I've tried to get the headspacing on all my enfields as tight as posiable but since enfields headspace off the rims this won't solve any of the over generous chamber problems.

I am starting to play with heat annealing the brass to alleviate the problems with work hardening due to the full lenght sizing. Last night did my first batch, 50 prvi partizan brass and they seem to size easier after the heat annealing.

but I have to work on my technique as the heating appears to be uneven.

I saw an interesting annealing machine that rotates the brass through a flame head and then drops the brass into a bin. I'm going to try my hand at making one (but better) stay tuned :)



As for premium bullets, I mostly use my enfields for target shooting and one or 2 as truck guns for hunting. So its close range use when hunting and targets out to 200yds. The round nosed bullets are just fine on deer and I would not hesitate to wack a moose with one at shorter range.
 
303Brit = Lee collet neck die. As long as pressures are kept moderate or you use better brass like Gavelot/DIZ surplus/Herters or similar, you can expect quite a few reloads.

My rifles loved 150gr SP Hornady Interlocks. Shot MOA or better, never recovered a bullet, broke bones/spines on their travels. Usually 1/2" in, 2" to 3" out.

I found the larger diameter of the Hornady's to be a better fit in most rifles. None liked Speers and Sierras were so-so (your mileage may vary).

I used H335 and Win LR primers. I eventually switched to CCI BR2, just because. Velocity was 2650 to 2700fps - basically 308 win/savage type performance.

I would have no issue using this combo on any grass eater in NA.

I did find moly to be beneficial with these rough bores.

There is no such thing as a bad or good bullet. Just poor application. Premium bullets do you no good at low impact velocity as reg bullets 'fail' at high impact velocity.

Match the IMPACT velocity not muzzle veloctiy, game, and type of shot you are willing to make.

A premium bullet out of a 303 might be worse then a good old soft point. You just don't go fast enough to get them working at their best.

Remember that at the time of the 30-30, a jacketed bullet was a 'premium' bullet and the old thudy a flat shooting game smasher.

How times change? Well kind of - not really...

Jerry
 
Hi thanks for your load data on 303 all.
Okay so from what I gather; If you use a cartige that goes below 3000fps there is no need for premiums, but if you use a cartrige that's got more speed you should consider premiums.
Well anyone want some premium bullets then?
 
todbartell said:
bulls**t on the bullet on the far side being optimum performance

when those bullets slow to a stop on the far side, they have lost all their velocity, and the wound channel shrunk as speed was lost until it is the size of the expanded bullet.

optimum bullet performace is whistling through fully expanded and exiting at high speed, and making a hole for blood to pour out. Id rather have an X bullet exit with 1200 fps and 500 ft-lbs remaining then a regular softpoint stop at the far side with zero remaining.


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This is correct.

The old "I want the bullet to use up all it's engery inside the animal" arguemnt reminds me of "I shot at close range, and the bullet didn't expand, because it was going too fast":rolleyes:

When the bullet fully expands, and drives all the way through the animal, you have maximum size wound channel, and have an extra (and larger) hole for blood to escape so your tracking job is easier. Of course, most of the time trackign jobs arent' necessary when using a X bullet in the rigth place;)

Blood trail (.308 cal 168gr TSX black bear, ran 20 feet)

Picture833-copy.jpg


Not every X bullet exits, of course, but the wounds that these bullets create are fearsome, they make long tubular wound channles with maximum disruption, and the exit wounds you can usually shove several fingers in, even if only hitting ribs and not shoudler bones.

:) :) :)


Premiums have other advantages, too. A 150gr X bullet will penetrate just as good if not bette than a 180gr regular softpoint, so you can have a load that performs the same but with less recoil.

But the #1 reason to use premiums is not for when everyhtign goes rigth, and you have a nice standing broadside shot at your moose at 150 yards, it is for when things go WRONG, and you need to take a shot at the south end of a north bound animal, or somehting liek that..;)

Of course regular bullets work fine, and if I only hunted deer, I may just stick with a Sierra Game King or similar. But I dont' just hunt deer, and I odn't just hunt in the backyard, either.:p
 
NOPE that is not correct!

If the bullet arrives at the game at 3000fps+ AND is asked to penetrate a long ways or break bones, a premium bullet may be the right choice. Bullets like the SST can handle 3000fps impacts with ease if asked to take boiler room shots, even at strong quartering angles.

Send it out several hundred yards and the impact velocity is now 2400fps or lower, a reg. SP or poly tipped bullet might be ideal.

Go even further and have the impact velocity drop to 1500 to 1700fps and a quality match/varmint bullet gets the nod.

All bullets have a velocity range where they work the best. This is not good or bad, just how they were designed. Just put the bullet that best suits your intended use down the pipe, into a useful spot on the animal and results will be positive.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
NOPE that is not correct!


Jerry
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Yeah, it is correct.

We are talkgin about two different things here...

Your argument is about bullet performance/expansion at various ranges.

Tod and I are saying that regardless of range, we woudl prefer a bullet that fully expands and exits the animal rather than a bullet that stays inside on a broadside shot.

Most premium bullets expand reliably at lower velocities these days, anyway. :)
 
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Reagarding the 303...It's probably best with the heavier bullets for moose and stuff. Too bad there aren't too many 215gr bullets made for it anymore:)
 
Gatehouse, we both like the same type of ingame bullet performance. I too like a big exit wound and lots of mush in the boiler room. I don't worry about punching through the onside shoulder either.

I don't like Texas heart shots but have successfully gone the other way with SST's and Interlocks. 4 1/2 ft of penetration through a large mulie then leaving a large exit wound is enough bullet performance for me.

The problem is that as distance extends, impact velocity falls. Yes, premium bullets will expand down to a lower velocity. However, that lower velocity is still pretty fast.

Seen enough marketing ads to know that once you drop below 2500fps, bullets, like the Barnes X, don't give the 2 cal or larger expansion I prefer. When you approach 2000fps, the tip usually pushes back and that's about it.

By comparison, an SST or Ballistic tip (new gen.) will perform the same way, just requires that you go 300 to 500fps SLOWER.

Now for these Prem bullets starting out at 3000 to 3300fps, dropping to 2000fps is a very long ways so really of little consequence to 99% of hunters. But for those who do desire to reach out, this is something to keep in mind.

Personally, I use two bullets when I hunt with my 7RM. The 162gr SST for shots inside 400yds and the Amax for further out. I could use the SST for further out but like the accuracy/ballistics of the Amax when we get into 1.5sec time of flights.

It's all good and with new bullets coming out, getting even better.

Jerry
 
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mysticplayer said:
Gatehouse, we both like the same type of ingame bullet performance. I too like a big exit wound and lots of mush in the boiler room. I don't worry about punching through the onside shoulder either.

I don't like Texas heart shots but have successfully gone the other way with SST's and Interlocks. 4 1/2 ft of penetration through a large mulie then leaving a large exit wound is enough bullet performance for me.

The problem is that as distance extends, impact velocity falls. Yes, premium bullets will expand down to a lower velocity. However, that lower velocity is still pretty fast.

Seen enough marketing ads to know that once you drop below 2500fps, bullets, like the Barnes X, don't give the 2 cal or larger expansion I prefer. When you approach 2000fps, the tip usually pushes back and that's about it.

By comparison, an SST or Ballistic tip (new gen.) will perform the same way, just requires that you go 300 to 500fps SLOWER.

Now for these Prem bullets starting out at 3000 to 3300fps, dropping to 2000fps is a very long ways so really of little consequence to 99% of hunters. But for those who do desire to reach out, this is something to keep in mind.


It's all good and with new bullets coming out, getting even better.

Jerry
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No real disagreement there...Softer bullets should always expand more than harder bullets, and when hunting deer at longer ranges, I don't see the need for a super tough bullet, of course.;)

Although here is somehting from Barnes site, and since it is a Barnes marketing tool, it as to be taken wiht a grain of salt, of course.

They placed 1" of ballistic gelatin in front of a piece of aluminum to illustrat how much/rapidly a TSX bullet expands compared to other bullets.

Hereis what Barnes says about their new TSX bullets:


● Impact velocity was approximately 2000 fps, simulating a 500-plus-yard bullet strike from a .300 magnum rifle.

● Lead-core bullets require substantial frontal resistance to expand. Barnes’ all-copper bullets rapidly expand once a small amount of fluid enters the specially engineered nose cavity.



x-citingfacts_clip_image002.jpg



Barnes claims that once a small amount if fluid enters the tip of the hollowpoint, the bullet expands...

I haen't shot anythign with a TSX at 2000fps, but I can attest to it's rapid expansion at closer ranges.

I guess the only way to tell for sure is test them out, and I jsut dont' have time to set up some sort of 2000fps comparison test!:p
 
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I think this is one of those everyone is right threads. Compared to some other bullet/hunting threads this one at least shows that everyone has enough brains and knowledge to make wise choices.
 
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