Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Very interesting indeed.
Jerry
Jerry
loading for the 303 and the use of premium bullets
- Thread starter Boer seun
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Tod -
My experience seems to suggest that the X's need to have 10" of penetration before the bullets begin to open up, however, I will concede that it could be less. Now with a broadside shot on a coyote or a pronghorn I believe that you are very close to not having the X bullet open up - but so what - you won't know and neither will the coyote or pronghorn. I also prefer through and through penetration on all game.
Mystic –
In you synopsis concerning the appropriate bullet design based on remaining velocity, you are not taking rotational velocity into account. In the case of the varmint bullet – at extreme range, at it’s lowest velocity it is still spinning at nearly the same speed as when it left the muzzle. Once that jacket begins to open the bullet will grenade as surely as it would at high velocity.
I did conduct an interesting experiment a couple of weeks ago. I used a large snowdrift as a backstop and fired 380 gr. bullets from my .375 at a velocity of 2300 fps. When the snow melted a few days later, I collected those bullets, which had penetrated some 20’, and only the tip if the jackets had started to expand. Now these bullets will expand to almost an inch in game, but I think this indicates there has to be enough resistance during a bullet’s penetration through tissue and fluid for that to happen reliably. I do wish I had some TSX’s that day with me to see if the water suspended in the snow was enough to open them, but I’ll bet, based on previous side by side test with the two bullets, that the TSX’s would have had a similar amount of expansion.
My experience seems to suggest that the X's need to have 10" of penetration before the bullets begin to open up, however, I will concede that it could be less. Now with a broadside shot on a coyote or a pronghorn I believe that you are very close to not having the X bullet open up - but so what - you won't know and neither will the coyote or pronghorn. I also prefer through and through penetration on all game.
Mystic –
In you synopsis concerning the appropriate bullet design based on remaining velocity, you are not taking rotational velocity into account. In the case of the varmint bullet – at extreme range, at it’s lowest velocity it is still spinning at nearly the same speed as when it left the muzzle. Once that jacket begins to open the bullet will grenade as surely as it would at high velocity.
I did conduct an interesting experiment a couple of weeks ago. I used a large snowdrift as a backstop and fired 380 gr. bullets from my .375 at a velocity of 2300 fps. When the snow melted a few days later, I collected those bullets, which had penetrated some 20’, and only the tip if the jackets had started to expand. Now these bullets will expand to almost an inch in game, but I think this indicates there has to be enough resistance during a bullet’s penetration through tissue and fluid for that to happen reliably. I do wish I had some TSX’s that day with me to see if the water suspended in the snow was enough to open them, but I’ll bet, based on previous side by side test with the two bullets, that the TSX’s would have had a similar amount of expansion.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Boomer, a true varmint bullet wouldn't have the BC to make a long distance trip anyways. No what I meant was light jacket construction.
Jerry
Jerry
10 inches of penetration before expansion? are you joking?
maybe with some of the early 90s era X's, which were plauged with problems, one of which was inconsistent expansion. the new triple shocks and xlcs got that sorted out now, and barnes claims expansion down to 1600-1700 fps, but I'd be more comfortable keeping impact above 2000 fps, just to be safe.
here's a yote shot with a 140 tsx in 7mm, impact speed 2600 fps, broadside. there is no 10 inches of forgiving tissue in a coyote broadside to get a bullet expanding before it rips into lungs. seems they can expand!
maybe with some of the early 90s era X's, which were plauged with problems, one of which was inconsistent expansion. the new triple shocks and xlcs got that sorted out now, and barnes claims expansion down to 1600-1700 fps, but I'd be more comfortable keeping impact above 2000 fps, just to be safe.
here's a yote shot with a 140 tsx in 7mm, impact speed 2600 fps, broadside. there is no 10 inches of forgiving tissue in a coyote broadside to get a bullet expanding before it rips into lungs. seems they can expand!
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
For game animals up to moose, I see no need for premiums in a rifle of 30 cal or more, with at least the power of a 30-30.
I recently took a moose with the 30-30. The shot I took, 75 yard spine shot, and the end result, a one shot, bang flop, would not have been any better with a premium.
If however, I had needed to take a shot on a bad angle, I could have been in trouble.
Would a Premium have helped that?.... Maybe.
But I think horsepower would have helped more.
I recently took a moose with the 30-30. The shot I took, 75 yard spine shot, and the end result, a one shot, bang flop, would not have been any better with a premium.
If however, I had needed to take a shot on a bad angle, I could have been in trouble.
Would a Premium have helped that?.... Maybe.
But I think horsepower would have helped more.
I'm probably nuts to even enter this fray, but just can't seem to keep silent and just observe. As most who read my posts know, I am a long-time Partition user. Like some on this thread, I do prefer it if a bullet exits, but since I have never had to chase any game very far after the shot, I am not too worried if the bullet does not exit. I do want evidence of expansion, though, even when velocity is down somewhat. That being said, I have done autopsies on a lot of game animals as I dressed them, and I have yet to see any sign of a Partition failing to expand, even when velocities were well below 2000 FPS. I have recovered some Partitions from game, but about 80% of them have exited, which is good enough for me. I'm sure that Barnes TSX are great bullets, and I know that they shoot better in my rifles than any previous offering from Barnes. Early offerings from Barnes would occasionally punch through without expansion, but I believe they have that solved. No personal experience with this one, though. Rather than "dissing" another product to promote your own, it is better to let the product speak for itself. Once some of the new designs have shown their ability to "get the job done" over a 20+ year period, then they will have truly proven their worth.
I would sooner use a bullet to take a number of game animals before making comments as to whether is is good or otherwise. But a couple of "blowups" will turn me off pretty quickly, and that is why I use Partitions in practically everything, even my 300 Savage, which starts that 150 Partition at around 2750. They may lose the front core, but the rear almost invariably remains intact to continue penetration. My recent experience with Accubonds/Interbonds have been positive, but not nearly enough game taken with them to make a valid observation. Regards, Eagleye.
I would sooner use a bullet to take a number of game animals before making comments as to whether is is good or otherwise. But a couple of "blowups" will turn me off pretty quickly, and that is why I use Partitions in practically everything, even my 300 Savage, which starts that 150 Partition at around 2750. They may lose the front core, but the rear almost invariably remains intact to continue penetration. My recent experience with Accubonds/Interbonds have been positive, but not nearly enough game taken with them to make a valid observation. Regards, Eagleye.
the Nosler Partition for hunting anything from deer/antelope on up to grizzly, makes a heck of alot of sense. Ive shot a few animals with Partitions over the past 10 years, but not a whole lot. The 140 gr. 6.5mm is excellent on deer in my 260, that I know.
Usually a pretty accurate bullet too, and the price isn't outrageous.
Usually a pretty accurate bullet too, and the price isn't outrageous.
If you study the big 180gr 30 caliber test,a bit dated now,observe how impact velocity efects bullet terminal performace. Two bullet designs that had a wide range were the bonded core and the round nosed ,Core-lok or Power-Point.The round nose isn't too ###y,but still had interesting results. I think the Core-Lok worked because the old design had a thicker jacket and of course the blunt tip. So for my P-14 they were one of the first I tried.At factory ammo speeds of 2200,the Core-loks shot well,as did the factory Winchester PP where I got the cases. The rifle still has the military iron sights. But at 2500f/s the Core-loks groups opened up.With The P-14 I can use 308 data.The Sierra shot well but in their manual,they list high impact velocities for the 180s.In the end ,I use Speer 180s.With all the filing of the front sight to regulate the rear volley sights,I think I may be stuck with them.
Steve has his 200gr for sale now,so that might have been a better chioce.
Steve has his 200gr for sale now,so that might have been a better chioce.
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
303
I have shot lots of big game like moose with the 303 and very rarely did the bullet exit even at short ranges like 50 yards. If the bullet gets into both lungs with a complete pass through or if it stays in the hide in the offside the critter still dies. I prefer a bullet to go through and through but the old 303 just works as is with heavy soft point bullets.
I have shot moose with the .270 without the bullet going through and the ending was the same, steak dinner.
I have shot lots of big game like moose with the 303 and very rarely did the bullet exit even at short ranges like 50 yards.
If the bullet gets into both lungs with a complete pass through or if it stays in the hide in the offside the critter still dies. I prefer a bullet to go through and through but the old 303 just works as is with heavy soft point bullets. I have shot moose with the .270 without the bullet going through and the ending was the same, steak dinner.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
downwindtracker2 said:
From 303british.com
The 200 grain Mark 9 Bullet
When I made a test batch in 2005, 3,000 bullets went in 3 weeks. I knew that they were a hit. They've been talked about on the hunting boards by reloaders since then. They've taken game. They are unique for a number of reasons. First, they are 200 grains. A heavyweight. Secondly, they are the proper diameter for most Lee Enfields - .313. They are also available in .311 and .314. Thirdly, I send reloading information with each order.
Smart shooters and reloaders slug their rifle barrels to find out exactly how big the bore is. After all, you bought military surplus and therefore the rifle is used. Shooting undersized bullets is the reason shooters see bigger groups from their rifles. Lee Enfield and P14 barrels have a land to land diameter of .303. Add the groove depth of .005 or .0055 (depending on which plan you read) and you can see why the proper diameter is either .313 or .314. Probably because of ignorance, the bullet companies made mostly .311 bullets. Hornady makes .312. In either case, the bullets are too small. Add wear and looser manufacturing tolerances into the equation and you can see why your rifle cannot shoot to its potential. Now it can!!
In its 2004 developmental phase, I shot a deer from 80 yds and it went down like a stone. Other, more objective tests have been reported too. Ask around. They're effective and accurate. More accurate than the others.
....................
The picture above is of two 303 Epps cartridges. The cartridge on the left is a 180 grain bullet. The cartridge on the right is loaded with a 200 grain Mark 9. It looks like an FMJ, but that was the flash. Since the demise of the 215 grain bullet, there has been a need for a heavier weight than 180 grains. The Mark 9 is the result of design and construction that make the 303 a real, modern day performer.
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Holy crap, the pics are just small on his page. Sorry about that.
Anyway, I've used Steve's bullets, the results were spectacular in my rifle.
Accuracy improvement was well worth the cost.
Anyway, I've used Steve's bullets, the results were spectacular in my rifle.
Accuracy improvement was well worth the cost.
As someone that has used the tsx on game and seen the results on several animals,I will say that it opens up quite quickly and reliably.It is by no means the same bullet as the original x.It expands well even with lower velocities and it retains weight very well,even when striking bone at very high velocity.
Of course it can be done, hell a 22lr has been used to poach Elephants before (BTW. It has been proven) The 6.5 swede is an awsome cartrige but How reliable will it be on Elk or moose without premium bullets I do not know.
ok, now define "most cal's"...Boer seun said:
take a 7 STW out for deer and you'll probably not want a Sierra GameKing or Hornady Interlock in the chamber.
grab a 338 Ultra and head for bison, and I'd not personally want a Speer Hot Core or Remington Cor Lokt as my bullet.
Premiums have their place. In fast cartridges or in cartridges which require a controlled expansion bullet for deep penetration on bigger beasts.
now, if all I did was hunt deer with a 7x57 and loaded 154 gr. Hornady Interlocks, I'd probably get by just fine. Same as if I hunted moose with a 35 Whelen, a 250 grain Speer or Hornady would fit the required needs very good.
You do not *need* premiums in these cartridges, but they certainly work, some VERY VERY well, and thats always a good thing
Boer Seun, you seem to be convinced you don't need premium bullets. In most cases you probably don't but if that is where you choose to save 10 or 15 bucks, then all the power to you. As for me, when hunting, I prefer to use premum hunting bullets, incase I have a less than perfect shot. The bullet will hopeful make up for any errors I might make. From all the money I spend on guns and hunting, 10 extra bucks for premium bullets is not where I want to save. That is just my opinion.
Now if you want to put 50 rounds downrange at paper, then I use regular bullets. But for hunting, you have the option to use premiums, why wouldn't you. After all, how many bullets do you actually use on you Moose, deer or Elk in a year, 5 or 6 ??
Now if you want to put 50 rounds downrange at paper, then I use regular bullets. But for hunting, you have the option to use premiums, why wouldn't you. After all, how many bullets do you actually use on you Moose, deer or Elk in a year, 5 or 6 ??
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