I'm quite curious as to where you think this gap in the 7mm line is. - dan
Long action chamber in short caliber , good and bad ??!!
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I'm quite curious as to where you think this gap in the 7mm line is. - dan
The gap, as I see it, is a 7mm that's optimized for 180gr+ high BC bullets, and still fits/feeds through 3.75" CIP-length mags while keeping the bearing surface above the NSJ. Basically the 7mm version of the 300 PRC.
The closest I can see are custom throated 28 Noslers. Super easy to have made, but you need to be able to reload to take advantage of the long throat.
The closest I can see are custom throated 28 Noslers. Super easy to have made, but you need to be able to reload to take advantage of the long throat.
If you're not reloading you aren't really precision shooting anyway. Actions capable of holding 3.75" cartridges are already available. Fast twist 7mm barrels are available. Is the issue that you can't buy that from a factory? - dan
The shooting community as a whole seems to suffer from magnumitus where the incorrect assumption is that more powerful is advantageous.
In this thread we argued the merits of the 260 over the 6.5 Creed and now we have devolved into overcharged 7mms and its sad really.
There's a reason the 6.5 Creed has a devout following and gets more attention than the 260... Because its a better blend of power and performance.
Balance is everything to a long range precision shooter... not raw horsepower...
Now we are throwing around a seriously over blown 300 PRC necked down to 7mm OMG this reeks of desperation
If you have been around long range "precision shooters" the winners almost exclusively use rounds that fit within the simple balance of bullet weight and powder weight.
The bullet is about the heaviest available for the caliber, and the powder charge is no more than one third of that.
The 6.5 Creed hits this number perfectly. 6.5 mm rounds are roughly 140 grains divided by 3 is 46 grains.. right on target... and a little less is better than a little more. This is because faster cleaner burning powders can be used that dont foul the barrel like charcoal.
Take a look at what f class shooters are using to win at 1000 yards in open division... Rounds like the 7 mm Wheeler with 58 grains of powder... No, not 80+ grains of powder... 58 grains.
Right on the numbers just below 1 one third of the 180 grain bullet weight.
Hunters for some reason think they need a bigger cartridge because they do not understand the concept of bullet selection... Or powder charge balance for that matter.
Bullet selection will make a much bigger difference on downrange performance than the powder charge ever will. You just need to understand BC. Not just have a rough idea what it is... really understand the concept.
In this thread we argued the merits of the 260 over the 6.5 Creed and now we have devolved into overcharged 7mms and its sad really.
There's a reason the 6.5 Creed has a devout following and gets more attention than the 260... Because its a better blend of power and performance.
Balance is everything to a long range precision shooter... not raw horsepower...
Now we are throwing around a seriously over blown 300 PRC necked down to 7mm OMG this reeks of desperation
If you have been around long range "precision shooters" the winners almost exclusively use rounds that fit within the simple balance of bullet weight and powder weight.
The bullet is about the heaviest available for the caliber, and the powder charge is no more than one third of that.
The 6.5 Creed hits this number perfectly. 6.5 mm rounds are roughly 140 grains divided by 3 is 46 grains.. right on target... and a little less is better than a little more. This is because faster cleaner burning powders can be used that dont foul the barrel like charcoal.
Take a look at what f class shooters are using to win at 1000 yards in open division... Rounds like the 7 mm Wheeler with 58 grains of powder... No, not 80+ grains of powder... 58 grains.
Right on the numbers just below 1 one third of the 180 grain bullet weight.
Hunters for some reason think they need a bigger cartridge because they do not understand the concept of bullet selection... Or powder charge balance for that matter.
Bullet selection will make a much bigger difference on downrange performance than the powder charge ever will. You just need to understand BC. Not just have a rough idea what it is... really understand the concept.
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Dan - I was just mentioning an obvious gap in the 7mm family that I can see. The 22 and 30 cals have their overbore factory cartridges that are designed specifically for long BC bullets and LR/ELR. But in the 7mms it really tops out around the SAUM. Everything bigger needs throat work, and none of bigger 7s have great brass to work with.
Moot point now that Lapua came out with 300 PRC and 300 win mag brass I suppose.
Moot point now that Lapua came out with 300 PRC and 300 win mag brass I suppose.
coleman1495
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Yes I’m aware of that. Unfortunately the 7saum doesn’t have nearly the commercial support of lets say the 6.5prc.
It seems strange that with the good selection of high bc, very practical weight bullets for 7mm we have to rely on oddball custom chamberings.
I wouldn't consider either the 7 saum or wsm oddball. They didn't sell well though, and that is the death knell for commercial cartridges. Obviously if there had been a deep desire to own them they would have sold better. And yes, I own versions of each and the wildcat 7mm-300 wsm. As for the throating comment, if you're custom building a rifle, choosing a longer throat really isn't an issue. The comment on the most efficient cartridge to move the bullets you want to move is true however, look at silhouette shooters as an example. They wildcatted the original 7mm-08 and 6.5-08 for just that reason. BR class cartridges and their many offshoots in benchrest, ditto. Unless you're hunting at Long range, the boomers aren't really required. Fun to shoot? Sure. A little easier for long range drop issues, but realistically it isnt going to do the job any better with game at any distances the vast majority of us should be shooting. But if you like it better, fill your boots. Lord knows im not going to restrict any cartridge choices people have, i alreadynhave my own rifle addiction to deal with. - dan
coleman1495
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7saum and 7wsm didn’t fail commercially because of a lack of desire. They failed because they aren’t heavily supported like the Hornady chamberings.
I want something to fire 160-180gn 7mm bullets that doesn’t cost 2$ per brass piece and has extremely limited sources.
If Hornady supported 7saum as much as they supported 6.5 or 300prc I think it would be popular. You’d get high bc bullets in a very practical weight range for big game hunting.
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Not sure that I understand what is "support" by a maker?? It is the customers - the people that buy - that determine whether an item does well or not?? Is often always driven by sales ads - marketing - does not need "facts" - needs a sales pitch - people buy - it becomes "popular" - people do not buy - it sort of wanes away. Two that I happen to have - 308 Norma Mag and 7x61 Sharpe and Hart. I suspect Europeans (Norma, Schultz and Larsen) basically sucked at advertising in those 1960's - else why would we have 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag today?? Is marketing and advertising, I think - not so much "facts".
Is kind of a "pay to play" thing?? Your desire is for 160 to 180 grain 7mm bullets in brass that costs less than $2 per piece. I suspect that the buying public may not agree with you. Phil Sharpe's exact, explicit design parameters for his 7x61 was to drive 160 grain 7mm bullets. Pretty much not too popular today. Many reasons for that - mainly I think because he chose to have rifles made by Schultz and Larsen - priced two and three times as much as Remington 700 or Winchester Model 70. Exquisite, decently high end rifles - but certainly were never priced like an Axis... Made for "easy pickings" for Remington to introduce their 7mm Mag a few years later.
Is kind of a "pay to play" thing?? Your desire is for 160 to 180 grain 7mm bullets in brass that costs less than $2 per piece. I suspect that the buying public may not agree with you. Phil Sharpe's exact, explicit design parameters for his 7x61 was to drive 160 grain 7mm bullets. Pretty much not too popular today. Many reasons for that - mainly I think because he chose to have rifles made by Schultz and Larsen - priced two and three times as much as Remington 700 or Winchester Model 70. Exquisite, decently high end rifles - but certainly were never priced like an Axis... Made for "easy pickings" for Remington to introduce their 7mm Mag a few years later.
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coleman1495
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Its more than a sales pitch and marketing. The availability of brass, availability of factory rifles, availability of factory ammunition, dies etc. Its not marketing that makes the Hornady chamberings successful, its the fact that they can back them up with components.
It's marketing. They just don't fold as fast as the owners of Rem and Winchester did. Now that the old man at Hornady is gone, not too sure they won't follow suit. Incidentally, if you're ever in grand Island, its a very cool factory to tour through, good people. They used to have a small store from for blems and such there as well, bought a LOT of varmint bullets there. - dan
I agree. Advertising in NA was miles ahead of the Europeans at that time. Good choice in cartridges by the way, I have a PH Safari in the 308 NM and an old Dumoulin in the 7x61. Incidentally coleman, that 7x61 will do everything you say you want, and can be made from any belted brass. Doesn't get much cheaper than that. Not trendy though. - dan
There are 3 manufacturers of SAUM brass that I am aware of. When the 6.5 CM started no one but Hornady manufactured it. When enough gunsmiths had built rifles for it, the factories climbed on the bandwagon. So it goes. - dan
coleman1495
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I guess if you can deliver a supply of factory ammunition, gun manufacturers and gunsmiths will follow suit.
Lol. No, that often isn't the case. - dan
Norma, Bertram (what I run cause I could get it, at the time) and ADG, if memory serves? I don't think Remington makes the brass anymore?
I agree with you, demand drives support, not vice versa. Like you said, look at how many companies now produce 6.5 Creedmoor ammo and brass and developments like Lapua now making .300PRC and .300WM brass.
I don't know if the new Remington Ammunition company makes SAUM. Before they folded they would run off a batch every year or two. Like Winchester and it's old brass. Rem is bad for abandoning things it figured it wasn't getting enough market returns on (5mm, 6.5mm, 350, and 8mm Rem Mags being examples). All good cartridges, but never really took the market by storm. Winchesters old cartridges are similar, and their WSSM/WSM lines aren't too healthy either. - dan
Yeah, that's kinda what I figured. I ended up picking up some Bertram 7 SAUM brass a bunch of years back when I had it in mind to do a 7mm short mag because WSM brass just couldn't be found.
The question came to me when my 7mmWSM is in short action and I have a feeding issue with magazine .
TheCOAL of wsm 7mm is longer than magazine in short action .
Now I don't want to make that mistake again
Now this time I am going to build 7SAUM in long action
Parts almost arrived , manners stock LA , purchased a new rem700 300RUM for Parts and action , kreiger barrel and SB 5x25 ready for setup.
TheCOAL of wsm 7mm is longer than magazine in short action .
Now I don't want to make that mistake again
Now this time I am going to build 7SAUM in long action
Parts almost arrived , manners stock LA , purchased a new rem700 300RUM for Parts and action , kreiger barrel and SB 5x25 ready for setup.
It's too bad you didn't look at medium action lengths, like Defiance's "XM" length action.
Designed to do exactly what you are asking for.
