Long barrels vs. Short for Precicion Shooting

sendero said:
i have a custom built remington 700 in .223 with a 16in. lothar walther barrel on it and it's split hair accurate up to 300 yard (never tried longer distance with this rifle yet) really enjoy this rifle, the folding stock make it very compact to travel or bring in the bush...
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pics?
 
Here is a good read for you if you have not read it already . I think about this article when I am making a decision for reloading or making a choice on cartridge / caliber . Lots to consider in barrel length choice . Accuracy is one and velocity the other the main ones . Velocity from the barrel length or amount of powder , you get to choose .

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

I am shooting a 22-250 - 1 - 8" twist Tru Flite barrel 26 " using 80.5 Bergers and IMR4007 SSC Lapua brass trying Varget also . settling for around 3050 fps loads . About to check poders for temp chance before a final load decision .
 
I have seen all that show up at 900m with short barrels not do well. This could have been the short barrel or could have been lack of skill. Those that shoot well always stick to long barrels at least in this part of the country. If someone in Ottawa wants to sacrifice a barrel I will cut it off in stages for testing purposes, start at 32" etc. It would take most of a season to do this test if anyone is interested. Of course this only makes sense if you are shooting scope because you would not want to loose sight radius with irons unless the barrels was fitted with a bloop tube. And yes, irons can shoot just as well as scope with a skilled user.
 
From a purely theoretical standpoint a longer barrel is going to be more sensitive to load tuning. That is matching the length of the barrel to the natural harmonics created by the bullet weight, pressure, powder choice etc of a given load. You want the barrel length to be an exact match for the nodal length of that frequency. The farther its off the less consistent rounds will group. The closer it is the less muzzle position will vary within the vibration pattern.

This effect is reduced with shorter barrels. As the barrel shortens its stiffness goes up in a cubic function. That is halving the barrel length makes it deflect 1/8 as much for the same force. So a shorter barrel should be less affected by load choice or tuning because it just doesn't move as much so load tuning has less benefit.

As an example a 32" steel tube with a 1" OD and a 0.3" ID (bore) will deflect 0.376" under a 50lb load. A 16" steel tube with the same OD and bore will only deflect 0.047"... This isn't to say anything about which is a better length, just that under that simple situation this is the difference. Clearly a fired rounds traveling down the bore affects it differently than a plain lateral load, but the stiffness ratio will still be constant.

All things being equal a long barrel requires lower pressures to get a given weight of bullet moving a given speed, this will affect the harmonics as well.

That said at longer ranges there are other factors which affect shot placement. And are far more significant than barrel length. Things like bullet BC, bullet speed, trigger weight, shooting technique, rifle weight, movement under recoil, shooter experience and ability...

So is it a simple thing? No.

Personally I think all things being equal, with light recoiling rounds for short ranges a short-ish (20"-22"?) barrel will be more precise. And be more accurate in the field as the shooter will be more comfortable shooting a lighter rifle. For long range and heavier recoiling rounds, probably a moderately long barrel (26"-ish) with a properly tuned load driving the lowest BC bullet possible is better all in as heavy a rifle as feasible/comfortable.
 
From my limited experience barrel length( more speed) makes a greater difference the farther the shot and the more adverse the conditions are. If it is dead dead calm extra speed is of little advantage shooting at known distances BUT how often is it dead calm.
I have only tried my 32 inch barreled 7mm ultra mag( with muzzle break) at 1000 yards a few times. Each time it has been windy and the groups were pretty darn good( a 162 amax or 168 berger around 3600 fps). SO yeah size matters...
 
Well the 20 inch bull barrel is stiffer and flexs less then a 22 inch barrel thats why they can be just as accurate or more so. When you start going even shorter then you have a big preformance drop. I simply asked a gunsmith that makes firearms what his opion was and he explained it to me that way. There is more then just velocity at play with the barrel legnth you have rate of twist which is setup for the type of bullet and powder you use so you can match them better to get better accuracy.
 
Long vs short and the theories stated above are interesting but as Ian suggested, anecdotal.

Why? Because we can adjust our ammo any way that is needed to satisfy the barrel.

IF the barrel is of a high quality and the installation done PROPERLY, MATCH TUNED ammo will shoot to the accuracy potential of the BULLET.... REGARDLESS OF BARREL LENGTH.

Way back when these theories were being formed, options were incredibly limited in all components so you built the rifle to make the best of what you had.

Would the 303british and 30-06 look the way they do if they had ball powder at the very begining of the smokeless powder revolution instead of Cordite?

Would we have magnums like the H&H and Rigbys?

YMMV

Jerry
 
If you are shooting short range , the loss in velocity is pretty insignificant to precision, and shorter and stiffer can be more accurate. However at longer range the faster the bullet is going the quicker it gets to the target and the less time the conditions can affect its path.
 
Fenix.NZ said:
so i guess like Jerry says, pick the length according to what you want to do, but dont be afraid to go shorter ( 20-24" )
keep in mind that USMC M40A5's are 24" .. and they shoot out to 1000 just fine
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Hmmm, do you have a cite or a reference for the claim that cal .308 Win USMC M40A5s with 24" barrels are shooting well at 1000 yards? I have no problem at all believing that a short barrelled .308 will work just fine (as in, shooting to a competition-winning level of accuracy) at 600 yards, or 800 yards, and perhaps even 900 yards. But there's a whole lot of conventional wisdom out there (some of it is even well-founded, I am sure ;-), that suggests that a short-barrelled .308 at 1000 yards is a bit of an uphill struggle.

Just to be clear, I am not at all against shorter-than-30" barrels for .308s, in fact I think that for the vast majority of uses, a shorter-than-expected barrel will do just fine. One my low priority pet projects is to build a 16"-barrelled .308 and see how well it can shoot at 600m, 700m, and perhaps even beyond that.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
Hmmm, do you have a cite or a reference for the claim that cal .308 Win USMC M40A5s with 24" barrels are shooting well at 1000 yards? I have no problem at all believing that a short barrelled .308 will work just fine (as in, shooting to a competition-winning level of accuracy) at 600 yards, or 800 yards, and perhaps even 900 yards. But there's a whole lot of conventional wisdom out there (some of it is even well-founded, I am sure ;-), that suggests that a short-barrelled .308 at 1000 yards is a bit of an uphill struggle.

Just to be clear, I am not at all against shorter-than-30" barrels for .308s, in fact I think that for the vast majority of uses, a shorter-than-expected barrel will do just fine. One my low priority pet projects is to build a 16"-barrelled .308 and see how well it can shoot at 600m, 700m, and perhaps even beyond that.
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I can not speak to what the US military is doing, but over the last few years we have produced over 50 custom rifles in 308 all with 22" long barrels and not 1 has struggled to keep a 5" gong swinging at 1000 yards. Some of us are pushing these stubby little buggers out to 1400 yards and not having any real problems killing clay birds stuck in the sand bank at that distance.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
I can not speak to what the US military is doing, but over the last few years we have produced over 50 custom rifles in 308 all with 22" long barrels and not 1 has struggled to keep a 5" gong swinging at 1000 yards. Some of us are pushing these stubby little buggers out to 1400 yards and not having any real problems killing clay birds stuck in the sand bank at that distance.
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That will work for me and my 20" barrels. :D Evolution of loads and barrel lengths sure is interesting learning!

I just like the 20" barrels ( have THREE of them: .22-250, .308, and .260 Rem) because the rifle(s) all fit nicely into my Pelican 1720 case. Ha ha ha ha No kidding, I bought the case first :D Then I decided the barrel length. Goofy , eh? :evil:


Cheers,
Barney
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
rnbra-shooter said:
Hmmm, do you have a cite or a reference for the claim that cal .308 Win USMC M40A5s with 24" barrels are shooting well at 1000 yards?
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I can not speak to what the US military is doing, but over the last few years we have produced over 50 custom rifles in 308 all with 22" long barrels and not 1 has struggled to keep a 5" gong swinging at 1000 yards. Some of us are pushing these stubby little buggers out to 1400 yards and not having any real problems killing clay birds stuck in the sand bank at that distance.
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Thanks, that's good to know; I appreciate it.

I would assume that these are good handloads, with various good heavy match bullets?

One afternoon I put up a number of clay birds on our backstop and had a number of people shoot at it from 500m, as a "nice challenge". To be honest I was a bit shocked at just how "challenging" (!!) *I* found it. Many of the other guys, all of them less experienced shooters than me, were hitting them often enough for it to be quite enjoyable. Harumph, kids these days... didn't have the simple good manners to refrain from outshooting me!! ;-)
 
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