Bassmaster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- WMU 48 - Whitetail country
Well said.....
Long range bullets
- Thread starter Papaclaude
- Start date
Well said.....
Instead of trying to take a pot-shot at an animal beyond the capability of your rifle. Get in closer.
Snipers, match bullets, expansion blah blah blah.
It's all the same. The computer-chair snipers will tell you it's possible. Hunters will tell you not to try it.
So take it upon yourself to make a quick, clean and ethical kill. This is the way I was taught to hunt anyways.
I doubt a lot of people know actually how far 600 yards is, on the ground.
Snipers, match bullets, expansion blah blah blah.
It's all the same. The computer-chair snipers will tell you it's possible. Hunters will tell you not to try it.
So take it upon yourself to make a quick, clean and ethical kill. This is the way I was taught to hunt anyways.
I doubt a lot of people know actually how far 600 yards is, on the ground.
Long range shots
One should not judge unless one knows what he/she is talking about. As mentioned earlier, I've shot some 50 bears in the last 40 years, with only 1 wounded. I've passed up more than my fair share of shots because I wasn't 100% sure of making a kill. I've only had 5 or 6 bears that required a second shot. Every single bear I have ever killed was promptly dressed and found its way into my freezer. Whenever possible, the hide was donated to people who made use of it. The only reason I would not try a shot at under 600 yards is that if I develop a load that expands properly at 600 yds., I'd be concerned that it wouldn't penetrate properly at higher velocity. It would be greatly appreciated if you could ask for clarification before making uninformed comments.
By the way, the 308 can, and will, consistently kill a black-bear sized animal in the hands of a careful shot who knows his rifle, the ballistics of the load he is using, and who is shooting under optimum conditions, which is the ONLY time I would try a shot. I too, was brought up to respect game, and have NEVER shot at ANY animal that I was not certain of killing. As a matter of fact, I passed up a 30 yd. shot with my crossbow this year, at the biggest buck deer I had ever seen, because i was not sure of the shot. the buck was motionless, but he was standing is some brush. 75% sure I could get him, but not enough to take a shot.
One should not judge unless one knows what he/she is talking about. As mentioned earlier, I've shot some 50 bears in the last 40 years, with only 1 wounded. I've passed up more than my fair share of shots because I wasn't 100% sure of making a kill. I've only had 5 or 6 bears that required a second shot. Every single bear I have ever killed was promptly dressed and found its way into my freezer. Whenever possible, the hide was donated to people who made use of it. The only reason I would not try a shot at under 600 yards is that if I develop a load that expands properly at 600 yds., I'd be concerned that it wouldn't penetrate properly at higher velocity. It would be greatly appreciated if you could ask for clarification before making uninformed comments.
By the way, the 308 can, and will, consistently kill a black-bear sized animal in the hands of a careful shot who knows his rifle, the ballistics of the load he is using, and who is shooting under optimum conditions, which is the ONLY time I would try a shot. I too, was brought up to respect game, and have NEVER shot at ANY animal that I was not certain of killing. As a matter of fact, I passed up a 30 yd. shot with my crossbow this year, at the biggest buck deer I had ever seen, because i was not sure of the shot. the buck was motionless, but he was standing is some brush. 75% sure I could get him, but not enough to take a shot.
You are doing this because you think it will be fun to try it. You are viewing a bear as nothing more than a target.
I question your integrity as a hunter.
Integrity
Why do people hunt mountain goat or antelope? Most shots are taken at ranges in the neighbourhood of 600 yds., and they are not viewed as targets. I can't afford to go for goats or antelope, but I can go for bear in clear- cuts. Are you implying that all goat and antelope hunters are unethical?????? What about hunters who try gophers at 500-600 yards? Last time I checked, gophers were as much a living critter as bears.
Why do people hunt mountain goat or antelope? Most shots are taken at ranges in the neighbourhood of 600 yds., and they are not viewed as targets. I can't afford to go for goats or antelope, but I can go for bear in clear- cuts. Are you implying that all goat and antelope hunters are unethical?????? What about hunters who try gophers at 500-600 yards? Last time I checked, gophers were as much a living critter as bears.
LongBomber
CGN Regular
- Location
- Fernie, bc
So can all the guys that blab about ethics or "being a hunter" consistently hit a 6 inch circle with 5 shots at 100 yards, free hand??
Next time you go to the range try it, although it will likely be the day before the season opens, with the first and only shots your rifle will see before the season. How do you guys like it when someone questions your ethics and ability?
Just because someone hunts in a different setting than you gives you no right to question how they hunt. Especially with never having met them with no idea of thier abilities.
PS. I would go with a bullet that can get you a BC in the high 0.5 to low 0.6range, there are plenty with the proper construction for expansion at the velocity you will have at 600.
Next time you go to the range try it, although it will likely be the day before the season opens, with the first and only shots your rifle will see before the season. How do you guys like it when someone questions your ethics and ability?
Just because someone hunts in a different setting than you gives you no right to question how they hunt. Especially with never having met them with no idea of thier abilities.
PS. I would go with a bullet that can get you a BC in the high 0.5 to low 0.6range, there are plenty with the proper construction for expansion at the velocity you will have at 600.
It is a possibility that goats and what not offer no possible alternative. You HAVE an alternative and in short are choosing to find game and then take a few steps back from it.
Groundhogs are different game than a bear. If a .223 so much as touches a hog at 600 yards the thing is nearly vaporized. A bear hit in the gut or with a small hole punched through him because the bullet did not expand is a different side of the story.
- Location
- calgary alberta
A REAL hunter with honorable ethics is going to crawl up an animals tail and kill it by hand??
I fail to understand why ethics or hunting style is always dragged into any discussion about long range balistics.
I too rarely shoot animals at under 500 yards, but have seen more than my share of unethical hunting taking place at close range.
I propose we stick to what has been asked about and leave the arm chair quarterbacking and ethics discussion alone. We all have our own values and ethics .
I fail to understand why ethics or hunting style is always dragged into any discussion about long range balistics.
I too rarely shoot animals at under 500 yards, but have seen more than my share of unethical hunting taking place at close range.
I propose we stick to what has been asked about and leave the arm chair quarterbacking and ethics discussion alone. We all have our own values and ethics .
Thanx
Thanx for the support and the useful info. The way I look at it, I've got 4 months to prepare for the fall bear season, and to get my rifle and loads prepped. If someone can give me a factual, objective reason why a .308 isn't up to it, I'll abandon the project (or I'll try developing a load for my 300 Win Mag, it's just that I feel a lot more confident and comfortable with the Remmy).
Thanx for the support and the useful info. The way I look at it, I've got 4 months to prepare for the fall bear season, and to get my rifle and loads prepped. If someone can give me a factual, objective reason why a .308 isn't up to it, I'll abandon the project (or I'll try developing a load for my 300 Win Mag, it's just that I feel a lot more confident and comfortable with the Remmy).
I beg to differ , very few antelope hunters shoot their animals at 600yards, I have no experience with mountain goats so I won't comment. As I said before if you have the correct equipment and skill then I won't critique your ethics of how to hunt game , you may indeed be capable of such shooting, in fact you are the only one in this thread who does know. Many of the objections here come from observing people try "stunt" shots on animals with the predictable unpleasant results. I have seen more than one animal suffer unduly when some one lacking both skill and equipment tried a long shot, again if you are capable I have no moral issue to your doing so.
Pathfinder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northeast Ontario
Most mountain goats are taken within 300 yards. Very few (almost none) at 600.
I have taken a fair number of goats and hunted them on some of the best goat mountains in BC.
I have shot them from as close as about sixty feet, to one, the furthest, which was maybe a bit over 200 yards.
I was once with a spendid mountain hunter, it was the last day of our hunt, I had a goat and he didn't. We encountered about five goats at about two hundred yards. He was a deadly shot with his 7x57, but he wouldn't shoot because the wind was too strong. I urged him to shoot, but no, he said too much chance of just wounding one.People don't seem to like to talk about ethics, but it is great to see a real demonstration of an ethical hunter.
I have shot them from as close as about sixty feet, to one, the furthest, which was maybe a bit over 200 yards.
I was once with a spendid mountain hunter, it was the last day of our hunt, I had a goat and he didn't. We encountered about five goats at about two hundred yards. He was a deadly shot with his 7x57, but he wouldn't shoot because the wind was too strong. I urged him to shoot, but no, he said too much chance of just wounding one.People don't seem to like to talk about ethics, but it is great to see a real demonstration of an ethical hunter.
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
I'm not a fan of long range hunting generally, because I have seen first hand guys doing it who had no business doing so. However, if a fellow is serious about it and does his homework and practice, I think he would be well off using heavier bullets like 208gr AMAX and 210gr Berger VLD's. I have used the Bergers myself and found them extremely accurate and very explosive on impact, if a bit short on penetration.
LongBomber
CGN Regular
- Location
- Fernie, bc
An ethical hunter is proficent with his weapon of choice, be it rifle or bow. I know many "ethical" hunters who would never take a shot on an animal at over 150 yards and for them that is past what I think they should. I also shoot with a few "un-ethical" hunters that can and have shot game much further than that. For the average guy that buys the cheapest grey box of shells at canadian tire 2 days before the season 100 yards is well past where they should be shooting.
I say kudo's to the OP. He is at least starting to get things rolling with months to go to the season. Many guys in my parts go out sept 9 (rifle opens sept 10th for most species here) and shoot a half box of shells just to get 2 on the paper. They then go out the 10th and pump their chest about ethics...
To the OP:
I would stay with accuracy over going to the 300 win mag. A high BC bullet from a 308 will pack more punch past 500 yards than a lower BC bullet from a 300win mag. For example a 185VLD from a 308 would have more energy and velocity than a 180tsx from a 300 mag from roughly 400-450 yards on out.
I am not sure if the 185 or 190 VLD would be stable from your rifle, but if you could get good accuracy with either one they are something to think about.
I say kudo's to the OP. He is at least starting to get things rolling with months to go to the season. Many guys in my parts go out sept 9 (rifle opens sept 10th for most species here) and shoot a half box of shells just to get 2 on the paper. They then go out the 10th and pump their chest about ethics...
To the OP:
I would stay with accuracy over going to the 300 win mag. A high BC bullet from a 308 will pack more punch past 500 yards than a lower BC bullet from a 300win mag. For example a 185VLD from a 308 would have more energy and velocity than a 180tsx from a 300 mag from roughly 400-450 yards on out.
I am not sure if the 185 or 190 VLD would be stable from your rifle, but if you could get good accuracy with either one they are something to think about.
I was involved with a moose shot at 425 yards with a 308. 180 gr Norma soft point bullet in a handload. The lead tip was slightly deformed from hitting a rib. Zero expansion.
At 600 yards the performance would be considerably less. A 308, with any bullet, would not have much peneration if there was any expansion, and expansion would be hard to find.
If I was going to try this stunt at 600 yards I would use a 338Mag.
At 600 yards the performance would be considerably less. A 308, with any bullet, would not have much peneration if there was any expansion, and expansion would be hard to find.
If I was going to try this stunt at 600 yards I would use a 338Mag.
So I guess when I relayed that the Matchking showed bad erratic performance on living tissue at 400-600 yards I became a pleader and a naysayer?
"Talk to the real practitioners.."??
Who would that be?
Yourself possibly?
Thanks anyway but I'll keep getting my advice from the people who build the Matchking and I'll stick to using it for what its made for.
Good luck finding an endorsment from Sierra on using the Matchking on bear at extended ranges.
If you do then please post their reply here for all of us to read.
Someone who wants to go out an try this should spend a lot of time practicing at those distances and should spring for the ballistic get to actually test the expansion of the bullet they plan to use AT that distance. Different people, with different equipment have different limits. Know your limits and the limits of your equipment BEFORE you go out into the field.
Northman is right, I would look at the really heavy bullets: 208 AMAX and 210 Bergers. They can be launched at +2550 fps. out of a 308 Win. with RL-17 and retain over 1800 fps. of velocity and over 1500 fps of energy at 600 yards. That's the velocity of factory 30-30 at 100 yards with the energy it has at 50 yards. Same energy a 338 Win. Mag. has at 600 yards with factory hunting loads, but with 300 fps. more velocity. 338 hunting bullets have pretty poor BCs.
Northman is right, I would look at the really heavy bullets: 208 AMAX and 210 Bergers. They can be launched at +2550 fps. out of a 308 Win. with RL-17 and retain over 1800 fps. of velocity and over 1500 fps of energy at 600 yards. That's the velocity of factory 30-30 at 100 yards with the energy it has at 50 yards. Same energy a 338 Win. Mag. has at 600 yards with factory hunting loads, but with 300 fps. more velocity. 338 hunting bullets have pretty poor BCs.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I'm not sure what to make of this. Clearly the OP has many years of successful bear hunting behind him, and now wants to confront the challenge of long range hunting. OK, I get it, but what I don't get is that he doesn't know which bullet to choose. For me this brings his long range shooting credentials into question because to be successful in the long range game, one must first become a proficient long range marksman, as becoming a proficient long range marksman is the prerequisite of long range hunting. The proficient long range marksman has tried enough bullets and loads to know which bullets and what ballistics give him the best opportunity to reach out there. A 500 yard shot is on the near side of long range, for the proficient long range shooter, and it is close enough that several game bullets will produce the accuracy required for a humane kill. Having said that 500 yards I believe represents the ballistic limit of the .308 on big game.
Arranging to kill a bear at 500 is no trick if you are shooting over bait. If you have predetermined your shooting position and can sight in on the exact location of the bait, so much the better. Then hopefully the bear is on the bait at a time when the mirage is manageable. Thus a black bear taken over bait is perhaps the easiest of all big game to shoot a long range in that you already know where he will be and your rifle is pre-sighted to that spot.
But as an exercise lets consider the bullet selection for a .308 on a 500 yard bear. I would choose a heavy bullet, and despite some predetermined prejudices I would probably look at a number of 200 gr boat-tail spitzers, both game and match bullets, which when loaded to 2500 will still chug along at 1850 at the 500 yard line. I would then load a selection of those bullets to about 1800 and fire them into wet drill mud to see which produce the most desirable and repeatable terminal performance with a minimum of 12" of penetration. Chances are the bullet that performs the best at 100 yards is the bullet that will perform the worst at 500. Those that produce the terminal performance I want, I would load up to 2500 and see if I could squeeze some reasonable 500 yard 3 shot groups out of them, paying very close attention to see if the cold bore shot was outside of the group. The bullet that produced the best combination of consistent accuracy, nice round groups, and good terminal performance is the bullet I choose.
Arranging to kill a bear at 500 is no trick if you are shooting over bait. If you have predetermined your shooting position and can sight in on the exact location of the bait, so much the better. Then hopefully the bear is on the bait at a time when the mirage is manageable. Thus a black bear taken over bait is perhaps the easiest of all big game to shoot a long range in that you already know where he will be and your rifle is pre-sighted to that spot.
But as an exercise lets consider the bullet selection for a .308 on a 500 yard bear. I would choose a heavy bullet, and despite some predetermined prejudices I would probably look at a number of 200 gr boat-tail spitzers, both game and match bullets, which when loaded to 2500 will still chug along at 1850 at the 500 yard line. I would then load a selection of those bullets to about 1800 and fire them into wet drill mud to see which produce the most desirable and repeatable terminal performance with a minimum of 12" of penetration. Chances are the bullet that performs the best at 100 yards is the bullet that will perform the worst at 500. Those that produce the terminal performance I want, I would load up to 2500 and see if I could squeeze some reasonable 500 yard 3 shot groups out of them, paying very close attention to see if the cold bore shot was outside of the group. The bullet that produced the best combination of consistent accuracy, nice round groups, and good terminal performance is the bullet I choose.
