Long Range Hunting - Noobie

[Kelly Timoffee]

IMO this again is a misconception.It is how much energy gets transferred to the target/game.

It is based on bullet performance on target.

A FMJ out of a 300WM @ 300 yards has heaps more power than say a 25-06 @ 300, BUT a 25-06 with a proper controlled expansion bullet will kill much more effectively with half the energy.

The expected distance and size of quarry and potential speed of projectile dictate what to use.

Gophers , fast moving fast expanding.

Coyote, two variables, dispatch of animal and save fur, or not to save fur, two different situations.

Pronghorn at long distance can use fragile bullets.

Moose at close range cannot use fragile bullets.

I will say this though, a bonded , partition or mono metal projectile will kill pretty much ANYTHING you will be hunting at average game getting distances.Stretch out too far and you won't have the velocity for expansion and that is where a strong slow bullet will pencil through and leave a very small wound channel where a fragile bullet will be more suited.

What are you guys thinking is the needed ft/lbs of bullet energy needed to "knock down" an elk? I'm asking because I don't know what is commonly considered enough energy.

 

[thebiguno]

Best way for you to increase distance is bump you rifle's to zero to 300 yards. Under the vertical cap there's an adjustable ring. Use that ring to index your zero so you can re-zero after shooting at longer ranges. One scope that works fine for long range is the Leupold Mark AR 4-12X40. Cost of this scope is less than $500.00. It has a zero lock-out that can be set where-ever you want it set, so after dialing up you dial back until turret stops. With this scope just mark your come-ups (turret index) and record them for future reference. The scope you have won't be as easy to use but it will get you shooting long range.

That is a feature I didn't even know I had! Thanks tons! I just looked, and sure enough the MOA scale comes out and allows for you to zero it. Next time I am at the range, I will verify that I can move the adjustment back and forth, and when it comes back to zero, it was where it was before. I'll see what sort of results I can get at the range, and if things look good, I may even be able to start reaching out just a bit farther this year (say, 400 / 450 yards vs. my previous limit of about 300 / 350).

Cheers

 

[Shooter ----/]

I will say this though, a bonded , partition or mono metal projectile will kill pretty much ANYTHING you will be hunting at average game getting distances.Stretch out too far and you won't have the velocity for expansion and that is where a strong slow bullet will pencil through and leave a very small wound channel where a fragile bullet will be more suited.

So how do you determine these distances? Most of the time I hear people refer to the energy the bullet is carrying at the target. Just want to know what that is so I can apply it to my rifles.

 

[Brian46]

So how do you determine these distances? Most of the time I hear people refer to the energy the bullet is carrying at the target. Just want to know what that is so I can apply it to my rifles.

if you are using factory ammo look at the ballistics charts from the manufacturer on that load, it may even be on the box.

 

[Kelly Timoffee]

Simple ballistics charts will give you velocity and energy and trajectory, not perfect but close enough for this case.Most manufacturers will have that info on their web sites, if you hand load, well a chronograph is your friend.

Here is a rough example:




(please ignore the bullet weight, I found a quick chart for an example of velocity)

So basically that bullet stops expanding after 550 yards even though it has what most would consider enough energy to make an effective kill, very misleading if you don't watch the details.

Using some basic ballistic calculators you can play around and it will start to make sense.

So how do you determine these distances? Most of the time I hear people refer to the energy the bullet is carrying at the target. Just want to know what that is so I can apply it to my rifles.

 

[thebiguno]

Simple ballistics charts will give you velocity and energy and trajectory, not perfect but close enough for this case.Most manufacturers will have that info on their web sites, if you hand load, well a chronograph is your friend.

Here is an example:




(please ignore the bullet weight, I found a quick chart for an example of velocity)

So basically that bullet stops expanding after 550 yards even though it has what most would consider enough energy to make an effective kill, very misleading if you don't watch the details.

OK, so looking at Nosler Partitions vs Accubond, they have a minimum recommended speed of 1800 and 1300 fps respectively. So, those values would be my absolute bottom limit when determining the maximum range? All else being equal, then, Accubonds would be a better long range bullet, as they can expand sufficiently at 1300 fps, whereas partitions require 1800? (Obviously there are other factors at play which may take the lower speed limit up even faster, but never slower). Am I on the right page with this, then?

Edit: I looked again, and it is actually the Accubond LR which have a minimum speed of 1300 fps, not the normal Accubond... anyway, just wanted to ensure accuracy here for others, the point still stands. Thanks Kelly for the response. Cheers.

 

[Kelly Timoffee]

I believe you are.

It is a lot of research and reading and then testing, but it is worth it.

My hunting bullet I decided on are Swift Scirocco II's, they have the balance of accuracy and performance that I want in an all round projectile, coyotes to large game , they will do what I want.They are a high ballistic coefficient hunting bullet that works well in many of my rifles.

Another benefit is if it is a close shot these types of projectiles don't fly to pieces making more of a mess than needed.

OK, so looking at Nosler Partitions vs Accubond, they have a minimum recommended speed of 1800 and 1300 fps respectively. So, those values would be my absolute bottom limit when determining the maximum range? All else being equal, then, Accubonds would be a better long range bullet, as they can expand sufficiently at 1300 fps, whereas partitions require 1800? (Obviously there are other factors at play which may take the lower speed limit up even faster, but never slower). Am I on the right page with this, then?

 

[cr5]

What are you guys thinking is the needed ft/lbs of bullet energy needed to "knock down" an elk? I'm asking because I don't know what is commonly considered enough energy.

Honestly, if you really want to shoot large animals at 500+ yards I would suck it up and buy yourself a 338 Lapua and a nice new scope. Your 30-06 and 3-9x40 scope are not up to the task of making an ethical kill at those distances. There are too many variables that could throw off your bullet placement when shooting in the field to ensure a swift and humane kill.
Your 30-06 is a great rifle for shooting deer at up to 400 yards and elk out to 300 yards but I wouldn't shoot at animals beyond that. Like I said earlier you could easily target shoot the 30-06 (with a scope upgrade) out to 600 yards and even out to 1000 yards if you wanted but there just isn't enough energy out there.
A few weeks ago I was shooting 1100 yards with my 308win and we took along some expired 20 pound propane BBQ tanks for some reactive targets at that range and the 308 would only make a dent in the side of the tank with Hornady 165 gr SST handloads and some 147gr FMJ surplus but my 338 Lapua would shred it like a pop can with a 300gr Berger Hybrid OTM Match handload.

 

[Canuck525]

Honestly, if you really want to shoot animals at 500+ yards I would suck it up and buy yourself a 338 Lapua and a nice new scope. Your 30-06 and 3-9x40 scope are not up to the task of making an ethical kill at those distances. There are too many variables that could throw off your bullet placement when shooting in the field to ensure a swift and humane kill.
Your 30-06 is a great rifle for shooting deer at up to 400 yards and elk out to 300 yards but I wouldn't shoot at animals beyond that. Like I said earlier you could easily target shoot the 30-06 (with a scope upgrade) out to 600 yards and even out to 1000 yards if you wanted but there just isn't enough energy out there.
A few weeks ago I was shooting 1100 yards with my 308win and we took along some expired 20 pound propane BBQ tanks for some reactive targets at that range and the 308 would only make a dent in the side of the tank but my 338 Lapua would shred it like a pop can.

A 338 lapua is a great cartridge but totally unnecessary. A 7mm rem mag is easily adequate,no muzzle break required, half the price to shoot and recoils like a 3006.
A 338 is expensive to shoot( just ask anyone who has one). A lot of guys sold their 338 lapuas because they found them too expensive to shoot. Brass alone is over $300 for 100 brass.

 

[cr5]

A 338 lapua is a great cartridge but totally unnecessary. A 7mm rem mag is easily adequate,no muzzle break required, half the price to shoot and recoils like a 3006.
A 338 is expensive to shoot( just ask anyone who has one). A lot of guys sold their 338 lapuas because they found them too expensive to shoot. Brass alone is over $300 for 100 brass.

I stated earlier that a 300wun or a 7mm would do the job but a 338 Lapua will do it better. The 338 has as much energy at 1000 yards as a 243 win has at the muzzle.

It's a brake not a break.

I can shoot my 338 without a brake. I've done it many times. You can shoot a lot of rifles without a brake yet I still see lots of guys with brakes on their 308's and 223's.

I'll ask myself since I own one and have been shooting and reloading 338 Lapua since 2010.

It's only really expensive to shoot it if you buy factory loads for $5+ each. I can reload for less than $2.00 per shot using 300 grain Berger or Sierra bullets. Once fired brass also doesn't cost $3/ea. I have some brass on it's 6th loading and it still looks like new so it lasts quite a while as long as you don't push max charges though it trying to get more velocity that it really needs to do the job.
Due to the weight of my 338 it also recoils very similar to a 30-06. I have no problems running 50 rounds through it in an afternoon.

Sure you can do it cheaper but why is everyone always so worried about how to do things the cheapest way possible? This isn't a cheap hobby we have here, get used to spending money or be happy with what you have and realize it's limitations.
If the OP wants to save money he should keep what he has and keep shooting animals within 350 yards. I'm not sure why he wants to shoot animals past 500 yards anyway since it's pretty much completely unnecessary. I have filled my tags every year for the last 5 years and I've never needed to take a shot over 100 yards on a deer. I don't hunt elk any more because it's more meat than my wife and I can eat in a year but my buddies don't need to shoot 500 yards to get one either.
OP if you are trying to go longer for more of a challenge maybe you should challenge yourself to get closer to the animals and take your shots at under 100 yards, getting within 100 yards of an elk without it knowing you are there is a real challenge.

 

[.284]

I stated earlier that a 300wun or a 7mm would do the job but a 338 Lapua will do it better. The 338 has as much energy at 1000 yards as a 243 win has at the muzzle.

It's a brake not a break.

I can shoot my 338 without a brake. I've done it many times. You can shoot a lot of rifles without a brake yet I still see lots of guys with brakes on their 308's and 223's.

I'll ask myself since I own one and have been shooting and reloading 338 Lapua since 2010.

It's only really expensive to shoot it if you buy factory loads for $5+ each. I can reload for less than $2.00 per shot using 300 grain Berger or Sierra bullets. Once fired brass also doesn't cost $3/ea. I have some brass on it's 6th loading and it still looks like new so it lasts quite a while as long as you don't push max charges though it trying to get more velocity that it really needs to do the job.
Due to the weight of my 338 it also recoils very similar to a 30-06. I have no problems running 50 rounds through it in an afternoon.

Sure you can do it cheaper but why is everyone always so worried about how to do things the cheapest way possible? This isn't a cheap hobby we have here, get used to spending money or be happy with what you have and realize it's limitations.
If the OP wants to save money he should keep what he has and keep shooting animals within 350 yards. I'm not sure why he wants to shoot animals past 500 yards anyway since it's pretty much completely unnecessary. I have filled my tags every year for the last 5 years and I've never needed to take a shot over 100 yards on a deer. I don't hunt elk any more because it's more meat than my wife and I can eat in a year but my buddies don't need to shoot 500 yards to get one either.
OP if you are trying to go longer for more of a challenge maybe you should challenge yourself to get closer to the animals and take your shots at under 100 yards, getting within 100 yards of an elk without it knowing you are there is a real challenge.

Ummm. Didn't the op ask about shooting out a bit further with a 30-06? Not sure what your lapua has to do with helping the guy out.

OP, from what I can see you had some pretty sound advice until recently. Your30-06 is plenty for what you originally asked about. I would get a better scope and practice. I'm sure you'll learn your own limitations during that process. If your using a cartridge of adequate size for your game (which I think you are) I would find your max range by means of your own skill set and also the minimum velocity that your chosen bullet will expand at.

With practice and interest in learning about your ballistics I'm sure you'll find that 400-500 yards isn't really that far.
Have fun

 

[Mystic Precision]

LR hunting continues to be a touchy topic but here are some things to consider:

Will a 357 magnum load kill an elk if fired from 1" away?

Cold bore shot is EVERYTHING - you have to know you will hit the animal. Practise, practise, practise and when you are absolutely positive you can hit, practise some more.

Impact velocity is critical - ALL "hunting" bullets work the same way. It is the speed under which they change that matters. Pick a bullet that will do what you want under the impact velocities you anticipate. Yes, you will likely need 2 bullets.

Accept that the game will run after the shot even if given a lethal hit.... if you can't track it, don't shoot it. Bang flop is great for Youtube Videos but that is far from the norm in the field.

A 300WM is the 30-06 125yds further away... that's it. Prove to yourself with a ballistics program and realistic muzzle velocity. I just ran Hrn 180gr SST 2700fps for the 30-06 and 2950fps for the 300WM on JBM. 600yds impact.

The further you go, the more important bore size and bullet weight matters. High BC accurate bullets is important.

Optics - scope: tracking and optics are critical. There are no shortcuts. Dial to hit - there are simply too many variables for BDC to be anymore then approximate. Learn external ballistics and own the right support gear to get it done properly. Litz series of books will be very helpful. Scope, Range finders, wind meters, and spotter. These will cost a whole lot more then your rifle - many times more.

Proper bedding, loading and a whole lot of practise. If you want to hunt LR, practise at your max distance. Short range does not confirm LR performance... PERIOD.

I have a bunch of articles on my website in the TECH section to help with loading and optics. Any rifle that will offer sub MOA 3 rds performance is plenty of hunting at moderate ranges. Your ability to deliver the shot is far more critical.

longrangehunting.com has plenty to offer for info and discussion.

You will be comfortable with LR hunting when you know you have the skills to make a shot however far away with the same confidence as the average hunter does at 150yds.

This is HUNTING... not LR plinking.

There is a difference.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[sliceman]

I'm currently looking into the same long range hunting scenario. These sites have been especially informative:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/
www.youtube.com/channel/UC1xRShQSnBGtHy9bHOC00Fw?sub_confirmation=1

It has already been mentioned that wind reading skills and practice at long range are the 2 most important skills, along with good ancillary equipment ie rangefinder, ability to measure atmospheric conditions(air density and temperature) in addition to the scope, rifle and load.

 

[Brian46]

I'm currently looking into the same long range hunting scenario. These sites have been especially informative:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/
www.youtube.com/channel/UC1xRShQSnBGtHy9bHOC00Fw?sub_confirmation=1

It has already been mentioned that wind reading skills and practice at long range are the 2 most important skills, along with good ancillary equipment ie rangefinder, ability to measure atmospheric conditions(air density and temperature) in addition to the scope, rifle and load.

I would like to ad that the practise for LR hunting needs to be done in field and not at the range.

At the range you have known distances, predictable winds, etc, etc. You need to practice where nothing is known and you have to figure out the correct shooting solution in various conditions. shooting over a valey with three wind directions between you an the target is different than a field in a sheltered valley bottom. This is where you can upgrade your equipment to better suit your needs and shooting requirements for where you intend to hunt. Even go to these areas in the off season and practice there if you are unsure.

 

[Canuck525]

I stated earlier that a 300wun or a 7mm would do the job but a 338 Lapua will do it better. The 338 has as much energy at 1000 yards as a 243 win has at the muzzle.

It's a brake not a break.

I can shoot my 338 without a brake. I've done it many times. You can shoot a lot of rifles without a brake yet I still see lots of guys with brakes on their 308's and 223's.

I'll ask myself since I own one and have been shooting and reloading 338 Lapua since 2010.

It's only really expensive to shoot it if you buy factory loads for $5+ each. I can reload for less than $2.00 per shot using 300 grain Berger or Sierra bullets. Once fired brass also doesn't cost $3/ea. I have some brass on it's 6th loading and it still looks like new so it lasts quite a while as long as you don't push max charges though it trying to get more velocity that it really needs to do the job.
Due to the weight of my 338 it also recoils very similar to a 30-06. I have no problems running 50 rounds through it in an afternoon.

Sure you can do it cheaper but why is everyone always so worried about how to do things the cheapest way possible? This isn't a cheap hobby we have here, get used to spending money or be happy with what you have and realize it's limitations.
If the OP wants to save money he should keep what he has and keep shooting animals within 350 yards. I'm not sure why he wants to shoot animals past 500 yards anyway since it's pretty much completely unnecessary. I have filled my tags every year for the last 5 years and I've never needed to take a shot over 100 yards on a deer. I don't hunt elk any more because it's more meat than my wife and I can eat in a year but my buddies don't need to shoot 500 yards to get one either.
OP if you are trying to go longer for more of a challenge maybe you should challenge yourself to get closer to the animals and take your shots at under 100 yards, getting within 100 yards of an elk without it knowing you are there is a real challenge.

The spelling police are out in full force with this one.
From the OP's original post it would appear cost is a factor.

 

[.284]

I would like to ad that the practise for LR hunting needs to be done in field and not at the range.

At the range you have known distances, predictable winds, etc, etc. You need to practice where nothing is known and you have to figure out the correct shooting solution in various conditions. shooting over a valey with three wind directions between you an the target is different than a field in a sheltered valley bottom. This is where you can upgrade your equipment to better suit your needs and shooting requirements for where you intend to hunt. Even go to these areas in the off season and practice there if you are unsure.

Great point you have there!

 

[cr5]

Ummm. Didn't the op ask about shooting out a bit further with a 30-06? Not sure what your lapua has to do with helping the guy out.

OP, from what I can see you had some pretty sound advice until recently. Your30-06 is plenty for what you originally asked about. I would get a better scope and practice. I'm sure you'll learn your own limitations during that process. If your using a cartridge of adequate size for your game (which I think you are) I would find your max range by means of your own skill set and also the minimum velocity that your chosen bullet will expand at.

With practice and interest in learning about your ballistics I'm sure you'll find that 400-500 yards isn't really that far.
Have fun

If you read the previous posts myself and a couple others are saying that the 30-06 is a little on the light side to be shooting an elk at 500+ yards and making an ethical and humane kill. The 338 Lapua was a suggestion I made if he wanted to be able to shoot out that far or farther and know that as long as he placed the shot well the critter wasn't going far. The 300 and 7mm Win mag were both also suggested as an improvement over the 30-06 for longer range shots.

If you had read the posts you would also know he was asking about elk at 600 yards not 400-500 yards. Elk at 600 yards could easily turn into 700 yards without excellent range estimating ability or the use of a high end rangefinder. I say high end because cheap rangefinders have such a wide beam you never really know how far the object you are pointing at really is because the beam could be bouncing off something else.

He asked for opinions and just like you don't agree with mine I think you would be a fool to try to take an elk at 600 yards with a 30-06 and a 3-9x40 scope. You would be nearing the minimum amount of velocity to get proper bullet expansion and penetration and without absolutely perfect shot placement you risk wounding the animal and chasing it for hours trying to get a second shot.

As I stated earlier the 30-06 can easily place a bullet out that far but it's far from an ideal cartridge for large game beyond 500 yards.

 

[cr5]

The spelling police is out in full force with this one.
From the OP's original post it would appear cost is a factor.

Not knowing the difference between a brake and a break kinda knocks any credibility to your statement into the this guy don't know shat department and is quickly disregarded.

Then as I stated he should not extend his range until he can afford to upgrade his gear to something better suited to long range hunting of animals as large and powerful as an elk.
If he's capable of getting within 300-350 yards as he obviously is since he says he has done it then keep filling tags at that distance until he can afford gear better suited to long range hunting.

 

[Chinbullco]

Not knowing the difference between a brake and a break kinda knocks any credibility to your statement into the this guy don't know shat department and is quickly disregarded.

Then as I stated he should not extend his range until he can afford to upgrade his gear to something better suited to long range hunting of animals as large and powerful as an elk.
If he's capable of getting within 300-350 yards as he obviously is since he says he has done it then keep filling tags at that distance until he can afford gear better suited to long range hunting.

This post increases your credibility and helps the really dumb understand just how intelligent and knowledgeable you is! The leadership skills you display insure the "forum" will remain a resource with information properly spelled.

 

[thebiguno]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and ideas.

I think I have a reasonable idea of what I am going to do now.

First, I will re-chronograph my current loads (since I can't find my notes from a few years back), spend some time at the range, and get a better idea of a baseline for what my current capabilities are. This will help me this season (if nothing else, I will be more accurate at the short to moderate distance shots), with the only investment being time and ammo.
Second, I am happy to refine my wishes to a more moderate distance, as the numbers seem to imply that a 30-06 is not well suited to the distances I had originally hoped for. If I can reach 450 yards with good accuracy, that is still better than what I am comfortable with now, and as an added benefit I will be more confident in my shorter distance shots too.
Third, I will continue to practice stalking technique. I have been practicing this for years, and I agree with a previous poster that most of my current shots are in the 100 yard range. I probably should have made this clear in the original question, but my intent for looking at longer distance shooting is not so that I can lob bullets at 500 yards all the time; rather, I just want to get more comfortable with my rifle so that I have that option when such a need arises. I always prefer short distance shots to long ones when possible, but there are times when you just can't get any closer.
Fourth, after hunting season I will investigate an upgrade to my scope, depending on the results from the previous steps.

Long term (5+ years) I could see an upgrade to the actual firearm, but that is not in the cards for the immediate future, due to finances.

Thanks again to all your collective experience, and for your willingness to share.

Cheers