Long Range Hunting Rifle

hmr-hound said:
In my opinion the action on the savage model is a bit smoother than the stevens. With the 111 you also get the detachable mag. I have both.
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Well I think you've helped me make my decision on the model to go with. I really like the detachable mag. Any comments on the scope they include? I know I would probably be better off removing it and picking up something better, but would it be good to start with?

Thanks
 
I think you are on the right track with the 223.
Before you hunt at long range you need to practice at long range and you need to do it a lot. A fast twist 223 is cheap to shoot and will reach as far as you want.

As you shoot you will learn what to look for, but what you really need to learn is when NOT to shoot.

As far as a hunting rifle or caliber I could care less so long as it delivers 2000fps impact velocity. I care more about the scope and the trigger than I do the rifle.

I prefer and accurate rifle, but extreme accuracy is not required.
Pretty much any rifle will do.
 
You've had lots of good suggestions. One of the best being, "Stay away from magnums." (Including 7mm magnum.)
Your semi agrement to 270 is good, as someone said you can't go wrong with the 270. However, I think you could do a bit better, with the 30-06, instead. I have used both and reloaded for each, for a lot of years. I consider the 30-06 to be the easiest bottle neck cartridge there is to reload for. Not only do you have such a vast array of bullets available, but the 30-06 is just plain easy and simple to load for. The 270 is a bit more pernickety, for one thing the cases "grow" with use, much faster than does the 30-06.
The 308 is more limited as to bullet weights, plus is a wee bit inferior in ballistics to the 30-06.
In buying a rifle, look long and hard at the used market, there are some great, older rifles out there. Two brands that are consisitantly sold for less than their quality indicates they should be sold for, are the various Husqvarna's and BSA rifles. The new Savage and Stevens (add Remington and maybe some others) are no where in the same league.
 
obzerver said:
Well I think you've helped me make my decision on the model to go with. I really like the detachable mag. Any comments on the scope they include? I know I would probably be better off removing it and picking up something better, but would it be good to start with?

Thanks
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The scopes that come with package rifles do work; that's about the best flattery that can be given to them. I'm partial to Leupould VX1, VX2, and ultralight. There are many very good scope manufacturers out there though; Bushnell, Zeiss, Swaravsky, Vortex, and Sightron would also be good picks. My favorite scope is the 2-7X ultralight. my thoughts are that as a still hunter; 2X is excellent, and if I can't see it at 7 power, maybe I shoulden't shoot. It sounds to me like you have a totally different set of criteria for a scope though. If you plan to use it as a hunting rifle, I would go with say a 4-12 power, that will give high enough power for long range shooting, low enough for close shots, and not have an adjustable objective that you will find yourself playing with when you should be shooting.
Mike
 
H4831 said:
You've had lots of good suggestions. One of the best being, "Stay away from magnums." (Including 7mm magnum.)
Your semi agrement to 270 is good, as someone said you can't go wrong with the 270. However, I think you could do a bit better, with the 30-06, instead. I have used both and reloaded for each, for a lot of years. I consider the 30-06 to be the easiest bottle neck cartridge there is to reload for. Not only do you have such a vast array of bullets available, but the 30-06 is just plain easy and simple to load for. The 270 is a bit more pernickety, for one thing the cases "grow" with use, much faster than does the 30-06.
The 308 is more limited as to bullet weights, plus is a wee bit inferior in ballistics to the 30-06.
In buying a rifle, look long and hard at the used market, there are some great, older rifles out there. Two brands that are consisitantly sold for less than their quality indicates they should be sold for, are the various Husqvarna's and BSA rifles. The new Savage and Stevens (add Remington and maybe some others) are no where in the same league.
Click to expand...

I had originally planned on going with the 30-06, as I have heard nothing but great things. My concern was the amount of recoil. Being new to the sport I was worried that I may develop some bad habits. Another concern I had with such a large caliber is that I may be waiting around for sometime between shots to allow the barrel to cool down. Am I wrong in thinking that?
 
Well... There is a lot of useful an insightful information here from various posters. First, if you shoot right handed, and have a bit of cash to put out, I would look for a really good rifle. And Sako would be at the top of my list. They are accurate and tough. You could go used or new. Second, I would consider the caliber... Hmm at the low end would be a 7mm08 (based on the 308 case). I would also consider a 25-06 (based on the 30-06 case). If I wanted to step up, I would look at a 270, possibly a 280, then a 30-06. After that I would consider a 270 WSM and lastly I would consider a 7mmRM. But one must keep in mind that as one steps up in size of bullet, grain and load, the recoil comes with it. If your just starting out, stay with something with a little less recoil and build your skills over time.

The savage rifle in 25-06 that was posted by Peterson looks really decent. And while I could carry such a rifle in the bush. If I was still hunting over the period of a day, I'd probably want something a little lighter. One's physical condition plays a part in what one chooses to carry in the field. And remember, over the course of the day one can get fatugued with a heavier rifle, and the walking through various types of bush. So one can miss a good opportunity if one is tired and not paying attention to the lay of the land. It's happened to a lot of hunters out there.

The most important factor is that one is comfortable with the hunting rifle that one has when one is out hunting. Sometimes having too many choices can have an adverse effect on the outcome of a hunt.
 
For someone who is "new" and "mostly doing range shooting" and plans "on learning to reload" a .308 is by far the best choice.There is lots of cheap ammo out there which you cannot say for the .270 or any of the other calibers save .223. You will be wanting to practice lots I'm guessing because you are new?That is going to be expensive with most calibers. Surplus .308 is plentiful and will give you the most practice "bang for your buck". .308 is also mild in the recoil department,which you said was a factor and is for a new shooter.You need to work on basics to become a good shooter and thinking about flinching everytime you pull the trigger is no conducive to accurate shooting.
Yes there are better calibers out there for true long range. .270 is a decent caliber but NOT one of the better ones.There is a problem finding true long range (match) bullets for .270 though if you really want to test it out on paper at great distances.Hunting bullets are one thing.Match bullets are a totally different ball of wax.
Guess you have a little more thinking to do.
 
obzerver said:
Well I think you've helped me make my decision on the model to go with. I really like the detachable mag. Any comments on the scope they include? I know I would probably be better off removing it and picking up something better, but would it be good to start with?

Thanks
Click to expand...


Toss the scope, I guess you can use it to start but I would avoid all the frustratation...

Im currently using the 111 for a custom build.....One thing is that the choices for Aftermarket stocks seem limited. (because of DM)

For your purposes I wouldnt' go bigger than the 30-06 Case Family. 6.5-06 comes to mind for a custom project.....25-06, 308, 270, 30-06 should be good start for you.
 
obzerver said:
I had originally planned on going with the 30-06, as I have heard nothing but great things. My concern was the amount of recoil. Being new to the sport I was worried that I may develop some bad habits. Another concern I had with such a large caliber is that I may be waiting around for sometime between shots to allow the barrel to cool down. Am I wrong in thinking that?
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Don't worry about recoil from the 30-06. In a good rifle with well shaped stock (Husqvarna) the felt recoil will be less than in many rifles of either 308 or 270 calibre. You would notice no difference in recoil between an average 30-06 and an average 308.
I can not understand this recent prevalent idea of having to let the barrel cool between shots. If the rifle has a descent barrel and is PROPERLY BEDDED, it will shoot good five shot groups without letting the barrel cool. I recently had a posting on here about this very thing. I am posting it here again. It is lengthy, but please read it carefully. It is a true account of what I did a couple of weeks ago, and explains fully this business of of proper bedding and grouping.
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I've said on these posts (a few times!) about me buying a Husqvarna 30-06, in December 1949. That rifle has travelled with me and shot more game, than any other rifle I have, or had. It has been on many trips in the mountains, with the roughest of terrain and weather encountered, that one is likely to come across. Days of being soaked, every day. One of its virtues is its light weight, for a sporting rifle with a 24" barrel. The outside diameter of the barrel at the muzzle is very little over ½ inch.
As of late it has been in semi-retirement, so yesterday I took a look at it. Didn't like the look of the barrel support on the front end of the stock. So, sanded it all out, put down some J-B Weld, wrapped one ply of Saran wrap around the barrel and put it together. I tightened the back screw and tightened the front screw, except for quarter of a turn.
Today I took it apart, took out the Saran wrap and tightened the screws full up. I estimated it took about 5 or 6 pounds to pull the barrel from the stock, which was exactly what I wanted, so went to the shooting range.
When I started to reload about 46 years ago, my very first loadings were for that same 30-06. The load was straight out of the Norma GunBugs Guide, 50 grains of Norma 203 and their 180 grain pointed, semi-boattail nickel coloured bullet. I used that load exclusively, until I could no longer get Norma 203 powder. I once chronographed the load and it made the 2700 fps, just like the Norma book said it would.
For the reintroduction of the rifle into the shooting world I was able to get a can of N203. I still had some of the same type Norma bullets, so I re-constructed my old load. I took one sighter, and adjusted the scope, which by the way, is a 4x, Bushnell Scopechief of about fifty years of age.
At the range I was trying to squeeze all the shots I could get onto my target squares, so my 30-06 group got a bit mixed into a poor group of the 45-70. Tried out a light load of LilGun in the 45-70, and it wasn't good. I circled the 45 holes before I shot the 30-06. I am not one to let the barrel cool between shots. With a properly bedded, good barrel on a rifle, it shouldn't be neccessary. Also, I am a fairly fast shooter at the bench, not wasting time with too long of an aim. I loaded the magazine with five of my loads, sat down and shot them off.
Here is my group at 100 metres. That figures out to about .85 MOA
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If anyone is interested, I can post a picture of the five shot group, as well as pictures of the bedding of the rifle.
 
H4831 said:
Don't worry about recoil from the 30-06. In a good rifle with well shaped stock (Husqvarna) the felt recoil will be less than in many rifles of either 308 or 270 calibre. You would notice no difference in recoil between an average 30-06 and an average 308.
I can not understand this recent prevalent idea of having to let the barrel cool between shots. If the rifle has a descent barrel and is PROPERLY BEDDED, it will shoot good five shot groups without letting the barrel cool. I recently had a posting on here about this very thing. I am posting it here again. It is lengthy, but please read it carefully. It is a true account of what I did a couple of weeks ago, and explains fully this business of of proper bedding and grouping.
-------------------------------------------------

I've said on these posts (a few times!) about me buying a Husqvarna 30-06, in December 1949. That rifle has travelled with me and shot more game, than any other rifle I have, or had. It has been on many trips in the mountains, with the roughest of terrain and weather encountered, that one is likely to come across. Days of being soaked, every day. One of its virtues is its light weight, for a sporting rifle with a 24" barrel. The outside diameter of the barrel at the muzzle is very little over ½ inch.
As of late it has been in semi-retirement, so yesterday I took a look at it. Didn't like the look of the barrel support on the front end of the stock. So, sanded it all out, put down some J-B Weld, wrapped one ply of Saran wrap around the barrel and put it together. I tightened the back screw and tightened the front screw, except for quarter of a turn.
Today I took it apart, took out the Saran wrap and tightened the screws full up. I estimated it took about 5 or 6 pounds to pull the barrel from the stock, which was exactly what I wanted, so went to the shooting range.
When I started to reload about 46 years ago, my very first loadings were for that same 30-06. The load was straight out of the Norma GunBugs Guide, 50 grains of Norma 203 and their 180 grain pointed, semi-boattail nickel coloured bullet. I used that load exclusively, until I could no longer get Norma 203 powder. I once chronographed the load and it made the 2700 fps, just like the Norma book said it would.
For the reintroduction of the rifle into the shooting world I was able to get a can of N203. I still had some of the same type Norma bullets, so I re-constructed my old load. I took one sighter, and adjusted the scope, which by the way, is a 4x, Bushnell Scopechief of about fifty years of age.
At the range I was trying to squeeze all the shots I could get onto my target squares, so my 30-06 group got a bit mixed into a poor group of the 45-70. Tried out a light load of LilGun in the 45-70, and it wasn't good. I circled the 45 holes before I shot the 30-06. I am not one to let the barrel cool between shots. With a properly bedded, good barrel on a rifle, it shouldn't be neccessary. Also, I am a fairly fast shooter at the bench, not wasting time with too long of an aim. I loaded the magazine with five of my loads, sat down and shot them off.
Here is my group at 100 metres. That figures out to about .85 MOA
----------------------------------------------------

If anyone is interested, I can post a picture of the five shot group, as well as pictures of the bedding of the rifle.
Click to expand...

By all means post them! Finding a decent barrel is something I still don't really understand, as in I am not sure what I am looking for. If you or anyone can recommend some good reading material on the subject I would be happy to read it and get myself educated.
 
The barrels on all of the well known rifle brands will certainly be descent, except for the odd one that will not perform. The early Ruger 77s had a bad reputation for this. I had one in 243 and a five shot group of less than 2 inches at 100 yards was pretty much a fluke. When I think of all the different weights and makes of bullets I tried, it is sure proof, if the barrel is no good, trying to get the right ammunition is a waste of time.
The pictures of the past post are coming.
 
Here is the group at 100 metres.
GR002.jpg

And here is the gauge on it. The picture is turned upside down, for better reading of the mete.
GR004.jpg

This is the action bedded. Don't know what kind of epoxy I used that came out yellowy-white. It has been there for a lot of years.
bed001.jpg

Here is the JB-Weld I just put on, for front barrel support.
bed002.jpg

This shows the custom trigger that makes it easier to make good groups.
bed004.jpg
 
And here is the rifle. If this isn't a good argument for looking for an older rifle to buy, I don't know what is. Next month will be 60 years since I bought it, carried for a lot of years in some of the roughest terrain in BC, Shot it a lot, including winning some shooting matches with it and it will still shoot five shot groups of under 1 MOA, with a 50 year old 4x scope. (No, it is not for sale!)
Hus001.jpg
 
H4831 said:
And here is the rifle. If this isn't a good argument for looking for an older rifle to buy, I don't know what is. Next month will be 60 years since I bought it, carried for a lot of years in some of the roughest terrain in BC, Shot it a lot, including winning some shooting matches with it and it will still shoot five shot groups of under 1 MOA, with a 50 year old 4x scope. (No, it is not for sale!)
Hus001.jpg
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Ha ha, well if I can't buy it I will keep my eyes open on EE, well once I get access. I really appreciate all the info, thanks!
 
H4831 said:
And here is the rifle. If this isn't a good argument for looking for an older rifle to buy, I don't know what is. Next month will be 60 years since I bought it, carried for a lot of years in some of the roughest terrain in BC, Shot it a lot, including winning some shooting matches with it and it will still shoot five shot groups of under 1 MOA, with a 50 year old 4x scope. (No, it is not for sale!)
Hus001.jpg
Click to expand...

:)Good on you Bruce. I wish I'd done the same with some of the earlier ones I owned.
:cheers:
 
obzerver said:
I had originally planned on going with the 30-06, as I have heard nothing but great things. My concern was the amount of recoil. Being new to the sport I was worried that I may develop some bad habits. Another concern I had with such a large caliber is that I may be waiting around for sometime between shots to allow the barrel to cool down. Am I wrong in thinking that?
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As far as long rang hunting goes the 280 gives you a fair break from recoil while allowing a great range of bullets to choose from. While the 30-06 is a better general purpose hunting round the 280 is a bit better in the wind.
There are a lot of good choices...Take your time to learn for yourself (while you shoot your 223) which one and why you want it.

Recoil is a legitimate concern.
Recoil is cumulative....One thump is nothing, 100 thumps will make your eyes water.
One more reason to learn on a 223.

Whatever rifle you buy, it probably will shoot better than you can....Just shoot it and shoot it often.
 
I would grab a Tikka T3 in 7mm-08, load up some 162gr A-Max bullets, toss a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 on top (after you send it to Zeiss to get a target elevation turret installed), and rock on. I wouldn't be firing round after round down range with it, you'll need to keep the barrel cool enough to comfortably grab with your hand, but these rifles are plenty accurate for LR shooting purposes, and the Conquest scopes track quite accurately and reliably. The 162 A-Max from a 7-08 is the best bang for your buck when it comes to a LR target load that is shooter friendly and effective on game.
 
Rifle details: Oops didn't come out as planned but go to the savagearms.com for pics and specs of the 111 Long Range Hunter.
 
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