Long vs Short Action??????

Yes REDD but Kombi also said this

"And more than any other factor, if a person bought an "off the assembly line" gun like a Remington, Winchester, Ruger or Savage and expected there to be appreciable differences in accuracy between 2 different cartridges simply because of the choice of cartridge(apart from specific examples of course) they'd be kidding themselves."

Which I totally agree with :)
I'd also go so far as to change Kombi statement to this

"And more than any other factor, if a person bought an "off the assembly line" gun like a Remington, Winchester, Ruger or Savage and expected there to be appreciable differences in accuracy between 2 different ACTION LENGTHS simply because of the choice of LENGTHS(apart from specific examples of course) they'd be kidding themselves."

The key is production rifles, you can even get identical rifles that shot completely diff!

My 2 cents worth of opinion:)
 
BIGREDD said:
For crying out loud Cat... common sense and reason have no place in this debate.:eek:

Thanks though, I started out with this debate talking about weight, recoil and accuracy as reasons for short actions over long actions.... then it all went to hell.:confused:
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Dang! I didn't realize common sense had anything to do with it!!:D
Okay, how 'bout this for common sense?

Somebosy designs a rifle encorporating a lot od composites, and flutes and/or
lightweight barrels , etc. on a rifle because the trend is for lightweight type rifles.
it is poo-pooed by some because it has too much "plastic"!
Never mind that the danged things do what they are supposed to and shoot like crazy!

Another outfit designs a short faat case with more capaciry than a non magnum to take adavantge of a shorter style action, becuase everybody wants power and light weight stuff.
It is poo-pooed by some because it "is just a gimmick to sell rifles"!

Someone else designss a cartridge by necking down the tried and trued 30'06 to 25 so it will go faster flatter , and it is poo-pooed by some becuase the bullets are " too light for anything bigger than deer"

Another guy sees the problem and designs a bullet for the 25 caliber specificly for elk and it is poo-pooed by some becuase it "is a hollow point".

Somebody buys a new rifle encorporating a short action, 25 caliber in a super short case with a light weight barrel, lots of composite to lighten it even farther,and it is poo-pooed by some for ALL the prevu=ious reasons.

Another guy says he is taking a standard actioned 25/06, putting it into a pillar bedded synthietic stock, turning down the barrel, installing lightweight bases and Talleys, tosssing the "heavy" bottom meatal and getting a super lieght weight number by a custom 'smith.
This , he states , is going to be a lightweight hunting rifle,and what does everyone say?

WOW!!:eek: WHAT A GREAT CUSTOM RIFLE!!:cool:

This little disertation just goes to show how fickle, closed minded and feircely
loyal we gun nutz are to out favorite caliber/rifle combinartions, and damm change!:D
Personally, I like bolt guns for my serious TR rifles, I love the savage rifles, and also Sakos, but give me a single shot falling block and I'll prosceed to dump a pile of money into it with a custom barrel and a WSM case with a 6.5 bullet, just to make a hot rod that I like to show off and shoot! ( i've done it not once, but TWICE!)

My most reliable, no-nonsense, get'er done rifle, if I could have only one?
PASS THE ENFIELD, PLEASE!
Now how's that for common sense!:D
I really do like to read these debates , however, if only just to see how the to sides go about defencing their chanpions......
Cat
 
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Rick F sheck out www.shortmags.org They can answer all ur questions in their FAQ's section. I personally have been getting 1" to 1.25" groupings with factory ammo. I am currently reloading to see if I can better that. As for case life concensus is about 4-5 depending on how hot u load it etc. If its your fisrt rifle and u r stuck between 270 and 270 WSM get the WSM. Not for any particular reason JMO difference between 2 are maybe a 200ft/s but id reloading is not an option ammo is about $6-$8 more a box. I bought one cuz 2 of my buddies use it as well in a Tika and a Vanguard. I like cuz it makes me look cool at the range :D The Tika brought down an Elk this past fall using 150 gr Accubonds Bang!! Stumble Stumble FLOP
 
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The 280 AI is indeed a match for the 7SAUM no argument there... this is only one obscure example, wildcat data is subjective only and it has nothing whatsoever to do with my claim of Short Action accuracy.
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No, but it has everything to do with your claim to the Short/Fat powder column being more "Efficient"... part of the Short/Long action debate you must admit?

BigRed, this is where you are wrong. Either the Short/Fat case is more efficient, or it is not.... which one is it? It has nothing to do with "Obscure" wildcats. The 280AI and the 7SAUM are 2 TOTALLY different case designs...and you can't apply your "Rules" only some of the time to certain cases only!

I could counter your redundant statement with the fact that if the AI's were so efficient and accurate then all the bench rest shooters would be using them.
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I didn't say they more more efficient.... YOU DID when you wrote this:

The 280 AI is indeed a match for the 7SAUM no argument there... this is only one obscure example
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If the 7SAUM is so efficient, then would you not agree that according to your "theory" the 280AI is efficient... or is the 7SAUM inefficient... which is it.... you are really confusing me!

You fellas can dance around the FACTS with your OPINIONS all you want... you still have not made any credible arguments.
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This is not opinion, it is fact. Look at the 300 H+H vs 300 WSM as well. Identical case capacity.... and low and behold.... identical velocities...

Does that still make the Short/Fat more efficient?

BigRed, sadly enough you won't admit that you've been sucked in by all the Gun Writers Hype. Too much time behind a gun counter preaching the ramblings of gunwriters to the rookies had made you a believer... yet you can't back up the facts.... cause there aren't any!!!!!

Remember the saying "you can BS the fans... but not the players"?

BTW... how many Short Mags are winning bench rest matches right now? Have they TOTALLY replaced the PPC's, BR's and 6.5-284's?

I have NO DOUBT that the Short/Fats can't be built into tack driving rifles, and that they can get the job done with a wide range of calibers and bullet weights, and don't doubt your highly capable shooting skills....

I do however believe that you have been led down the wrong path with your theory on the Short/Fats.

If you want to shoot them... fine... but don't mislead the newcomers. There are plenty O' ways to skin a cat with the same results...

BTW... you know why the 280AI gets more speed than the 280 REM? It ain't anything to do with shoulder angle, efficiency, or pixie dust... it is a simple matter of EXTRA CASE CAPACITY = EXTRA HORSEPOWER!

280_ACKLEY
 
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You guys are still at it?

Let Reeler make the choice that Reeler is more comfortable with. There may be inherent advantages to the WSM (as discussed and debated throughout this thread), but there are also very real advantages to the old .270 (as alluded to earlier in the thread). Reeler will, I suppose, decide what factors are more important to Reeler. The end result will be a very capable rifle that may not be the best choice in the opinion of some, but will no doubt perform its task well.
 
No, but it has everything to do with your claim to the Short/Fat powder column being more "Efficient"... part of the Short/Long action debate you must admit?

BigRed, this is where you are wrong. Either the Short/Fat case is more efficient, or it is not.... which one is it? It has nothing to do with "Obscure" wildcats. The 280AI and the 7SAUM are 2 TOTALLY different case designs...and you can't apply your "Rules" only some of the time to certain cases only!
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The facts are simple... short fat is proven... more powder exposed to the primer is more efficient... I didn't make the rules and you can't change them with.

If the 7SAUM is so efficient, then would you not agree that according to your "theory" the 280AI is efficient... or is the 7SAUM inefficient... which is it.... you are really confusing me!
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I said that AI's were efficient.... read it again...

This is not opinion, it is fact. Look at the 300 H+H vs 300 WSM as well. Identical case capacity.... and low and behold.... identical velocities...
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Again you are using one example to make an irrelevant point... what are you trying to say now... that a longer action is going to be better... if you get right down to it the shorter case even at identical velocities is more efficient... shorter lighter gun with a stiffer action and quite likely less recoil.

BigRed, sadly enough you won't admit that you've been sucked in by all the Gun Writers Hype. Too much time behind a gun counter preaching the ramblings of gunwriters to the rookies had made you a believer... yet you can't back up the facts.... cause there aren't any!!!!!
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Fact, shorter actions are stiffer and more accurate in most cases... proven by years of shooting by thousands of bench rest shooters.

Fact, shorter wider powder column burns more efficiently ... proven by every wildcatter and all the manufacturers time and time again.

Fact, Short fat cases will have less recoil and develop maximum velocity in a shorter barrel in most cases... I have proved the manufacturers velocity claims many times using a chrony. And I get to shoot them all.

BTW... how many Short Mags are winning bench rest matches right now? Have they TOTALLY replaced the PPC's, BR's and 6.5-284's?
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Why would they replace the PPC's with WSSM's they are virtually identical in design. Actually the short fat technology was copied from these proven cases ... another fact.

BTW... you know why the 280AI gets more speed than the 280 REM? It ain't anything to do with shoulder angle, efficiency, or pixie dust... it is a simple matter of EXTRA CASE CAPACITY = EXTRA HORSEPOWER!
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No doubt about case capacity and speed... and I never said any different.

This is no longer objective or relevent to the topic, sadly it has turned into another narcissistic assault by obtuse egotists.

In the spirit of east/west relations the content of this post has been heavily edited... I left the narcissism quote though... it was too good to delete;)
 
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I think a mod need to freeze this post. I sense to much testoterone. Everyone trying to prove they are the smartest or most knowledgeable. cant we all just b e friends:D
 
TinMan123 said:
I think a mod need to freeze this post. I sense to much testoterone. Everyone trying to prove they are the smartest or most knowledgeable. cant we all just b e friends:D
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What did you think this place was... Mr Rogers Neighbourhood? :p
 
I bought 270wsm 3 yrs ago and I think it great! I own and shoot other rifles such as 308, 300win, 240 Weatherby mag and a 375HH. I had used the 308 and the 240 for deer. Since buying the 270wsm, it's all I used for deer and moose now.
 
BIGREDD said:
The only thing your "professional" at is "Camel Diving" Phib...:p
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Nah, have 2yrs of Guide Licences for BC, still a rook, but "pro" none the less :D


Camels don't dive, they hate water ;)
 
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It might have been posted but I was just wondering what model 270WSM you own Amphibious? I also wonder how many people putting down the WSM actually own 1.
 
BTW... how many Short Mags are winning bench rest matches right now? Have they TOTALLY replaced the PPC's, BR's and 6.5-284's?

Well, the 1 mile record may still be held by a Savage actioned, hart barreled
laminated stocked 7WSM!
it was set a few years back however, and may have been borkien a few times since.
The WSM's will not be seen on the short course lines, but you do see tham at Williamsport and other 1.000 yard bech cliubs, and they do win if the shooters are capable of winning......
Cat
 
I'm kinda surprised this has gone on so long.
Either you like short actions or you don't believe the hype.....and I don't.
And either you like the WSMs, which I do but because of their own merits not purely the "Short Action is Best" argument, or think they're nothing to write home about.
Isn't there something new we can argue about?
This one's been worn out on every forum on the Net.........even ones that have nothing to do with guns!! :D
 
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