Long vs Short Action??????

And to add fuel to the apparent Bull#### that PEI rob has claimed...
Rob, lets drop the Win to WSM BS, and step it up a notch.
Lets compare a 25-06 to a 25 WSSM... And, in rifles nearly identical in wieght. (Tikka M695 synthetic vs Abolt varmint stalker in 25 WSSM) Both the same weight. Both once again shooting Factory 120 gr Positive Xpanders. (Yes, the bigredd shoots factory ammo, the dies took a bit of time, and no one had brass at the time ;) ) and I had three boxes of 25-06 positive Xpanders givin to me when I got the gun (Thanks Doug, and Redd ;), I got two and a half boxes left :):)

Was the recoil difference noticable? #### yes! the 25 WSSM recoils less than my Abolt Synthetic stalker in .243 with a 95gr ballistic tip.
And we were comparing loads that from the factory claim to be ballistic twins. I wasnt ever a skeptic, of case efficiency. But that right there will show you Apples to apples the difference that an efficient case can offer.
If you cant understand it than, you've got numb shoulders and cant count grains on a scale so you shouldnt be handloading anyways... ;)
Round two... :):):):)
 
Mmmm, a while ago a friend told me that the moment the name calling started the argument was over.
If you have to question someone's intellect in a fairly offensive manner to prove your point you've lost, IMO.
But the big issue here that everyone seems to be missing is the old and most important term.......FELT RECOIL!
How about we consider that.
No one seems to have addressed that.
I'm not picking sides but at the end of the day the stock shape, the clothes and any number of other factors DO affect FELT recoil.
If you're driving an MG Midget & your butt seems about 2" off the road will 80mph seem a lot faster than in a tank Fairlane? Of course.
It's felt speed.
You can be objective about recoil to a point but in the real world it becomes subjective.
 
kombi1976 said:
Mmmm, a while ago a friend told me that the moment the name calling started the argument was over.
If you have to question someone's intellect in a fairly offensive manner to prove your point you've lost, IMO.
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kombi1976 said:
But the big issue here that everyone seems to be missing is the old and most important term.......FELT RECOIL!
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Does it matter to me that one recoils 15lbs and the other 20lbs...no! Quite frankly I don't really care about recoil until it gets into the 40ft-lbs , 20fps range, and even then only from the bench. I was curious purely from an academic/intellectual perspective.
 
To bring this back to the title of said post, why aren't we comparing original short action cartridges like the 308, 300 Savage, 250 Savage, etc. to their long action counterparts?
WSMs are great but they make up a very small amount of the short action rifles manufactured and sold and they made up none of the market pre Year 2000 when I'm certain people worshipped at the alter of the short action.
Even PPCs are rare outside competition circles.
 
And Kombi, you touched on a very important part. felt recoil.
Felt recoil is something you actually feel, rather than numbers you pick off the net.
And for reference, Browning Abolt stocks are notoriously hard on the shoulder, and do not control recoil well... and the Tikka M695 controls recoil much better, and has a better factory pad...
Yet, the Abolt still kicked less in 25 WSSM
I can tell you this from experience having shot a bunch of magnum rifles, and none kicked as hard as my 300 WM Savage. Chilly's 300 RUM in the HS stock was more comfortable to shoot than my 300 WM, and the weight defference was under 2lbs...
But using your numbers comparison in recoil, the story is much different, and the RUM is significantly higher in recoil energy than a WM...
3 different shooters that day to compare, and all said the same thing...
1899 said:
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Does it matter to me that one recoils 15lbs and the other 20lbs...no! Quite frankly I don't really care about recoil until it gets into the 40ft-lbs , 20fps range, and even then only from the bench. I was curious purely from an academic/intellectual perspective.
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Kristian, your a good ####, but you have to shoot more than read...;)
5lbs is still 25% more when comparing 15-20 ft-lbs.
There are too many variables when comparing recoil to just take numbers off the net and call em gospel. Barrel length and weight, overall weight of the rifle, drop at comb and heel, Pad, LOP and so on...

So Why are we deviating from the point.
Compare the 25WSSM to a 25-06 in a similar weight rifle, and see the difference yourself. Now handload for it, and see the difference in powder to achieve the same velocities...

How you like those apples:D ...


kombi1976 said:
WSMs are great but they make up a very small amount of the short action rifles manufactured and sold
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My friend, maybe in Australia, but if you take a trip to your local gunshop out here, you'll see more WSM's on the wall than belted mags... Unless you check the used rack.
The truth is, they're outselling most standard cal's too since everyone caught Magnumitis..
 
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DarrylDB said:
My friend, maybe in Australia, but if you take a trip to your local gunshop out here, you'll see more WSM's on the wall than belted mags... Unless you check the used rack.
The truth is, they're outselling most standard cal's too since everyone caught Magnumitis..
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So what you're saying is that there are more WSSMs and WSMs made & sold than 223s, 22-250s, 243s, 7mm-08s and 308s?
Remember, all of these are also short action cartridges.
I don't doubt that WSMs are becoming very popular but they couldn't give away rifles chambered for .223WSSM and .243WSSM here in Oz.
There were new Winchesters & Brownings in those very chamberings selling for just over AUD$600 and even less in some cases, about half the price we'd pay normally.
What I'm saying is this......lets remove the emphasis on WSMs(both those for and against) and consider the strengths of each action length.
For a while now, obviously before the WSMs were invented, people have been saying "Short actions are better".
The main selling point of the WSM cartridges was magnum power in a SHORT ACTION.
Fine, if that's what you want then they supply it.
But what I want to know is why are short actions better.:confused:
The fact that a WSM equals less recoil in real terms is incidental to this debate as it's simply a good by-product.
If they recoiled the same as a long action magnum we'd all be saying "well, DUH!" to anyone who suggested they were a disappointment.
Why choose to create a short action magnum in the first place?
What is great about short actions?
Do you see what I'm saying?
 
Levi Garrett said:
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One of the few places where short is better:D
Frank
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Hey you, yeah you over there with the WSM! When you chamber a round, does the rifle ask "is it in yet?":D ;)
 
kombi1976 said:
But what I want to know is why are short actions better.:confused:
QUOTE]

They're not. In anything short of a all-out benchrest rifle the difference in accuracy is more imagined than real. In a factory sporter...forget it.

In achieving accuracy it ranks in importance far behind things like good bedding, good trigger, good barrel, good crown, lugs bearing evenly, scope rings not torquing the scope, no parallax in scope, straight ammo, bore twist compatible with bullet length, and a few other things I could mention off the top of my head without even going into shooting technique and shooting supports.

But it's an easy thing to argue about because it's theoretical. We never seem to discuss empirical things like tuning a rifle/scope system, handloading good ammo and shooting technique however. Too easy to argue formulae and supposition.
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1899 said:
Hey you, yeah you over there with the WSM! When you chamber a round, does the rifle ask "is it in yet?":D ;)
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It may not hit the bottom, but it sure whacks the sides good.




And Rick wins for the best common sense post about the difference between long and short.
 
Here we go round the mulberry bush :p

But consider this you whenches. [
I just had an out of body experience. :confused: I actually watched a 45-70 and a 308 cartridge ignite and witnessed the whole thing because my thought patterns were spead up to astronomical speed. :cool: Well, lets just say that here are my observations over a .002 second time frame after the firpin hits the primer

With the straight walled 45-70 case the little pirotechnial burst from the primer ignites the powder immediately in front of the primer. Pressure builds, compressing the powder ahead of it - essentially turning it into a plug. The pressure is enough to release the bullet from the cartridge a miniscule amount of time before the plug of powder is actually ignited. Further ignition occures slightly into the barrel and away goes the projectile with, well, less than an efficient combustion.

Then I studied the .308. As above the ignition and pressure starts at the primer. But unlike above a lot of the gas and pressure is not in direct line of sight for the bullet but will instead hit the flare of the case neck and be deflected away from the bullet towards the centre of the case. Urika, the powder just behind the bullet actually ignites just before the bullet is lodged, leaving less of a 'powder plug' to be ignited after the bullet has left.

Ok. That's it. I've said my piece. And by the way this thread sucks and i just stold all the above from a magazine article. :eek: :rolleyes: :p
 
Ok so let me get this straight...
A short action is only a little bit more accurate than a long action in most cases... so even though this is better accuracy it is not enough... so it is not really better.:confused:
A short action rifle is approximately 2 inches shorter and 6 ounces lighter than a similar long action rifle on average... but this is not significant enough in a hunting rifle that you have to carry all day... so it is not really better.:confused:
A short action rifle is only slightly faster than a long action rifle... but we don't really care about speed when hunting.... so faster is not better than slower. :confused:
Most Short actions particularly the Short Mags deliver less recoil than their belted Magnum counterparts which can only benefit small or recoil sensitive shooters... but this is not really better either.: :confused:

Wow... you Masterminds are astounding... the inanity of your obtuse arguments is only exceeded by your extraordinary subjectivity.:rolleyes:
 
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Bigredd, in the past few months you have dropped the profanity and bought a thesaurus, but the content is still lacking.

"A short action is only a little bit more accurate than a long action in most cases... so even though this is better accuracy it is not enough... so it is not really better."

How much more accurate?? Real numbers, not smoke... 1/25 of an inch? Show me that on target.
- In a 257 Roberts AI sporter I have, built on an old pre-64 M70 action, 75-grain V-Maxes average about 5/8" for 3 shots at 100 yards, 115 B. Tips about 3/4".
- In my "beater" rifle, a M700 stainless 300Win, 180 Hornady's consistently group at 3/4".
- My 6 3/4 pound (all-up with scope) 280AI averages right at 0.6" with 140 accubonds at 3150 fps.
- 8 pound 358 Norma averages 0.6" with 250 grain North Forks at 2800 fps.

Are you seeing better results with your short action sporters?


"A short action rifle is approximately 2 inches shorter and 6 ounces lighter than a similar long action rifle on average... but this is not significant enough in a hunting rifle that you have to carry all day... so it is not really better."

Actually about 5/8" and 2-3 oz, but if you're pulling numbers out of thin air, may as well go big, huh?


A short action rifle is only slightly faster than a long action rifle... but we don't really care about speed when hunting.... so faster is not better than slower.

How is it faster? Bolt cycle time? Again what.... 1/4 second?


Most Short actions particularly the Short Mags deliver less recoil than their belted Magnum counterparts which can only benefit small or recoil sensitive shooters... but this is not really better either.:

They recoil less because they produce less velocity, and use faster burning powders with higher pressures. Stuff a 300H&H with W760 and you can do the same thing, which only makes sense as it has the same capacity as a 300WSM.
 
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