Looking for 45 degree BUIS?

misanthropist said:
The bottom line for me is that,whether you've personally experienced it or not, if you genuinely can't imagine a situation in which it would be extremely helpful to immediately access different sights, you're probably not someone I'm going to take too seriously.
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I never said I could not see the the benefit when you have targets that shoot back at you. You also don't play one man army if you are in the military where this is usefull so you see diferent people in your unit with different roles/kit, not a one man solution/rifle used for every situation.

I question because I have not had issues with the optics I use going down like some here say theirs have. I'd like to know what optics are junk so I don't make a mistake in buying one to try at some point.
 
Buy a set of NCSTAR 45 offset mounts. Mount your sights onto that. Good to go. can mount em left or right side. Just make sure they are tightened right up, and check after again after your first outing. Mine were loose, but I tightened em up again, and they been fine for several 100's of rounds since.
 
grinrgrn said:
Agreed......scopes can fog up,rain,snow,your breath on a cold day....coyote pops up unexpected at close range or getting onto a fast mover bouncing thru cover....BUIS make pre-sighting in a new scope a breeze with no ammo wasted.....lotsa benefits to a secondary.I'm currently shopping for BUIS options as well.
Really liking the low profile of the XS-ITS 45o/s....not liking the price so much though,lol....compared to the $30 Amazon sights though,the XS sights are lower(better snag resistance),tritium enhanced,and look to be pretty solid?
https://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993112&CAT=8279

My other brainwave is to maybe just piggyback BUIS on top of 3-9x40 in it's PEPR mount......sorta like the integrated secondaries on ACOGs,Elcans etc?Drawback to that is it will have a fairly short sight plane on the PEPR rails,but not much different then an ACOG I spose(?).....and having a helluva time finding a set of low profile,non-flip-up,rail mounted sights...any ideas??
Seems to be several options for the rear such as LPA Ghost rings etc....but everything I've found from scouring the web is intended for shotguns/rear sight only,and no rail mounted front sights.....argggggg!!
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To me, piggy backing optics on top of each other is a no-go.
Aside from the inconsistent cheek weld issue, and the short sight radius (if attempting to do something like the Elcan C79), I have limited space in my safe and carry cases. The offset flip ups are way easier to fit, and are far less likely to snag.
 
Benito said:
To me, piggy backing optics on top of each other is a no-go.
Aside from the inconsistent cheek weld issue, and the short sight radius (if attempting to do something like the Elcan C79), I have limited space in my safe and carry cases. The offset flip ups are way easier to fit, and are far less likely to snag.
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Well,I guess as far as piggybacking is concerned,nobody seems to take issue with PBing an RMR or similar type of micro/reflex atop of a magnified optic.....I'm just doing the same with irons instead??
Short sight radius,admittedly yes,but again,no shorter really then the integrated sights on an Elcan or ACOG,and as long as the radius on many handguns that are effectively used to 50m and beyond,yes?
I think the key thing to BUIS is the "BU"......they are for all intents and purposes merely a Back Up sight to the primary optic,in my case a 3-9x40.They are more of a redundant fail safe in case of some kind worse case scenario optic failure,that are easily capable of more then adequate short range accuracy,totally acceptable for sub 100m "minute of coyote" accuracy,and can be of useful assistance in terms of "getting onto" a fast moving target bouncing thru cover.
I don't expect to use the BUIS often,or even at all really in 99% of all hunting scenarios....but again,the key letters in the acronym are "BU".....I'd rather have'em and not need'em,then need'em and not have'em. ;)
 
Benito said:
It isn't just about failing. Batteries run out, and even good ones can be finicky especially in extreme cold. Additionally, glass can fog up when transitioning from very cold to warm and back.

Lastly, 45 degree offset sights (whether irons of red dots) are useful even when the primary is functioning. If your primary is a 4-16X, and you need to make a close-in shot, on minimum power your 4X is probably going to be slower than an offset iron/red dot.

Don't write off the 45 degree thing. I used to think it was hokey too. But it has its place.
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I never had any of that happen with my EOTech and I shoot in Winnipeg weather don't care if it's +40 or -40 I'll play. BUIS are what they are; back up, if you don't do battery checks and proper maintainance you'll find yourself running out of juice in your optic, then you'll need the irons. However, since I always have spare batteries and do proper battery checks and maintainance I don't have issues.

As for the 45 BUIS I would suggest only running them if you have variable magnified optics like 3-9 power scopes things like that, if you have a 1-4 or 1-6 I find them unnecessary seeing as if you're running and gunning your using 1-3 1-4 magnification and if your bench shooting you're using 4 or 6 magnification anyways, and mostly likely when bench shooting your targets are far out enough that using irons would just be useless. Basically what Benito said lol.

As for where to get them, I'd say everywhere from IRG to OSTS to DSTactical. They're not uncommon.
 
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Brian46 said:
I question because I have not had issues with the optics I use going down like some here say theirs have. I'd like to know what optics are junk so I don't make a mistake in buying one to try at some point.
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nobody willing to say what optics they have had fail?
 
Brian46 said:
nobody willing to say what optics they have had fail?
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If by "fail" you mean "be obscured by opaque substances" or "be slower than canting the rifle when switching between targets" or "have water condense on surfaces when suddenly taken from -20 into +20" then all of them.

One of the frustrating things about even expensive optics is that they are fundamentally constrained by the laws of physics.
 
Same....Tasco,Weaver,mid grade Bushnell,Vortex,Redfield,and Leupold.....pretty much any/all of'em that I've owned over the years have had weather related issues at one time or another.Only one that hasn't is my new-to-me Trijicon that's barely been out of the house as of yet,lol.
 
misanthropist said:
If by "fail" you mean "be obscured by opaque substances" or "be slower than canting the rifle when switching between targets" or "have water condense on surfaces when suddenly taken from -20 into +20" then all of them.

One of the frustrating things about even expensive optics is that they are fundamentally constrained by the laws of physics.
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I am talking about inoperable. I have gone from submerged in a glacier fed stream (accident) to roughly plus 20deg Celsius and was clear to fire immediately with a zeiss. So I am not sure what you are doing wrong to get your optics to give you all types of problems during regular use when even an extreme example like the one I was presented with turned out fine and the shot was made.
 
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grinrgrn said:
Same....Tasco,Weaver,mid grade Bushnell,Vortex,Redfield,and Leupold.....pretty much any/all of'em that I've owned over the years have had weather related issues at one time or another.Only one that hasn't is my new-to-me Trijicon that's barely been out of the house as of yet,lol.
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Only one I have had a fogging/condensation/water issue with was a very old bushnell. I recently bought a new steiner and sent it back because it had fungus inside.

When I looked online for what the issue might be it appears as though it is a common issue with lenses. Look inside your scope with a flashlight and look for dirt patterns on the lense, the problem has to get really bad to notice it without using a flashlight to inspect
 
Brian46 said:
I am talking about inoperable. I have gone from submerged in a glacier fed stream (accident) to roughly plus 20deg Celsius and was clear to fire immediately with a zeiss. So I am not sure what you are doing wrong to get your optics to give you all types of problems during regular use when even an extreme example like the one I was presented with turned out fine and the shot was made.
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You have certainly been clear about the fact that you have not experienced it, yes.

I'm not entirely clear on why you think your situation is analogous to anything I've described but that's not something I'm going to lose a lot of sleep over - the difference is pretty apparent to anyone who knows what conditions cause water vapour to fog a smooth surface.

Personally I have seen it enough times for enough different reasons that spending a ton of time explaining it to someone who wants to think it will never happen to him just doesn't seem like a particularly good way to spend an evening.
 
Brian46 said:
Only one I have had a fogging/condensation/water issue with was a very old bushnell. I recently bought a new steiner and sent it back because it had fungus inside.

When I looked online for what the issue might be it appears as though it is a common issue with lenses. Look inside your scope with a flashlight and look for dirt patterns on the lense, the problem has to get really bad to notice it without using a flashlight to inspect
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I'm not talking about internal fogging,I've only ever experienced that once with a 10+yr old(?) Tasco that I had bought new as a teenager for one of my first rifles.
I'm talking about external fogging and condensation,and glass being obscured from everything from actual fog in extreme damp weather,to rain,freezing rain,snow,pine needles,mud,muddy water splashes,moving from warm(inside of truck) to extreme cold conditions(29/11/14,last weekend of AB deer season it was -36C w/-47 windchill)....and in "more typical" AB Nov. deer season weather of balmy -20 to -25C,I've had my own breath fog and crystallize almost instantly on the lens as I held my rifle shouldered in a ready position waiting for a clear shot.These are REAL world conditions,I don't care what pricey label is emblazoned on your optics,nor how many layers of coatings nor what kind of supercharged gas it's filled with.....externally,scopes are vulnerable to the elements.
 
grinrgrn said:
I'm not talking about internal fogging,I've only ever experienced that once with a 10+yr old(?) Tasco that I had bought new as a teenager for one of my first rifles.
I'm talking about external fogging and condensation,and glass being obscured from everything from actual fog in extreme damp weather,to rain,freezing rain,snow,pine needles,mud,muddy water splashes,moving from warm(inside of truck) to extreme cold conditions(29/11/14,last weekend of AB deer season it was -36C w/-47 windchill)....and in "more typical" AB Nov. deer season weather of balmy -20 to -25C,I've had my own breath fog and crystallize almost instantly on the lens as I held my rifle shouldered in a ready position waiting for a clear shot.These are REAL world conditions,I don't care what pricey label is emblazoned on your optics,nor how many layers of coatings nor what kind of supercharged gas it's filled with.....externally,scopes are vulnerable to the elements.
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so keeping the exterior surface clean is your issue....

Fog and other dirt wipes off a lens as quick as it takes to deploy flip up BUIS (if you carry a lens cloth), the only time it does not is when the problem is internal and can not be cleaned. Even your breath turning to ice does no stick to a coated lense.

The fact we are talking about 45deg BUIS here ads another curve ball as you would need a rifle with a full length rail which there are not many in the hunting world since the AR is restricted in canada. You also need to practice with them a lot to be able to hit anything as you are holding the rifle in an unnatural position along with recoil becoming a factor with large calibers due to the rifle being improperly shouldered. Forgive me for using hunting as an example but that is where you seem to have all the issues with your scopes from the post above.
 
Well Brian,if you look back to the first couple pages of this topic,you might recall that I'm not debating installing BUIS on any of my larger caliber sporting rifles,rather it was discussing BUIS for my new XCR,which yes,I do in fact have every intention of hunting coyotes with.I may in fact opt for a caliber conversion suitable for larger game at some point in the future,but in all honesty,it would be more of a novelty then necessity,as again,I have several suitable sporting rifles for hunting already,along with traditional BP MLs and bow.
Secondly....nooooooo....wiping a lens is NOT as fast as deploying flip-up sights....not even close.
Third....again going back to pg 1 or 2(?),I've already decided against 45o/s sights in favor of Troy Micros piggybacked on a 3-9x40,which incidentally are already installed as I speak.Aside from the fact that deploying flip-ups in a hunting scenario is exponentially faster then fumbling thru pockets for a wet lens cloth,I'm quite comfortable with the idea of leaving the Micros deployed in the upright position full time while actually hunting,likely only folding them down during storage,or possibly on the most lovely of bluebird days while sitting in a ground blind/tree stand or wutever?
I have no idea what your hunting experience entails,but as a 35yr veteran whitetail hunter,with stillhunting/spot&stalk bigwoods WT hunting being my preferred method of choice and lifelong passion,I can assure you that mature WT bucks don't generally stand around waiting for you to wipe lenses nor even flip-up a set of sights.The window of opportunity is often just a few short seconds,if not a split second decision to shoot or not to shoot,followed by either a buck down or a bouncing white flag disappearing over the hardwood ridge.In the world of stillhunting bigwoods whitetails,there's the quick,and then there's the hungry.Those who eat venison,and those who eat tag soup.There generally ain't no time to be messn with sights and/or lens cloths,I can assure you of that.
 
We agree to disagree, I have gone as far as ordering every rifle I can without sights if it is for hunting since I find they snag. Especially if you actually are hunting areas so thick where getting mud, dirt, water, snow packed in your scope so bad a quick wipe will not clear it as you have stated. Having Buis on top of a scope always deployed or any of the other versions like the 45 deg posted here will have an even larger snag factor than a rifles factory Irons for me. I even don't like the quick release levers the Zeiss scope mounts have on one of my rifles because of the snag factor.

Not inexperienced with hunting or whitetails so no need to try and school me as I know a few things

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grinrgrn said:
Well,I guess as far as piggybacking is concerned,nobody seems to take issue with PBing an RMR or similar type of micro/reflex atop of a magnified optic.....I'm just doing the same with irons instead??
Short sight radius,admittedly yes,but again,no shorter really then the integrated sights on an Elcan or ACOG,and as long as the radius on many handguns that are effectively used to 50m and beyond,yes?
I think the key thing to BUIS is the "BU"......they are for all intents and purposes merely a Back Up sight to the primary optic,in my case a 3-9x40.They are more of a redundant fail safe in case of some kind worse case scenario optic failure,that are easily capable of more then adequate short range accuracy,totally acceptable for sub 100m "minute of coyote" accuracy,and can be of useful assistance in terms of "getting onto" a fast moving target bouncing thru cover.
I don't expect to use the BUIS often,or even at all really in 99% of all hunting scenarios....but again,the key letters in the acronym are "BU".....I'd rather have'em and not need'em,then need'em and not have'em. ;)
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Ultimately, personal preference will prevail. If piggybacking is your preference, by all means go ahead. All I am suggesting is to try shooting with 45 degree offset irons side to side with a piggyback setup like yours, and then evaluate. I am confident that you would find the 45 degree more optimal, both in terms of cheek weld and sight radius.
Yes, they are back up, but I like my backups to be repeatable and somewhat precise.
Piggybacking is falling out of favor with more people as offsets gain popularity. Obviously, that doesn't make offsets better, but it makes them worth a look. Options are always nice, if that makes sense.

MK18 said:
I never had any of that happen with my EOTech and I shoot in Winnipeg weather don't care if it's +40 or -40 I'll play. BUIS are what they are; back up, if you don't do battery checks and proper maintainance you'll find yourself running out of juice in your optic, then you'll need the irons. However, since I always have spare batteries and do proper battery checks and maintainance I don't have issues.

As for the 45 BUIS I would suggest only running them if you have variable magnified optics like 3-9 power scopes things like that, if you have a 1-4 or 1-6 I find them unnecessary seeing as if you're running and gunning your using 1-3 1-4 magnification and if your bench shooting you're using 4 or 6 magnification anyways, and mostly likely when bench shooting your targets are far out enough that using irons would just be useless. Basically what Benito said lol.

As for where to get them, I'd say everywhere from IRG to OSTS to DSTactical. They're not uncommon.
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You are right, offsets do make the most sense for magnified optics. But I like consistency. If I am used to one AR (say one with a magnified optic and 45 degree offsets), I prefer setting up my other AR in a similar way (red dot, 45 degree offsets). I wouldn't set up one AR with a BAD lever, ambi selctor and a Redi-Mag, and leave the other bone stock. It's just bad ju-ju.
With battery checks, proper maintenance, etc. modern optics are extremely reliable. But there is still the chance, and it's just my preference to have a backup. Not necessarily for any high-speed tactical operations (I am a part-time SEAL Team Six member on my days off, lol), but because I don't want my range session interrupted.
 
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