Looking for a .31 cal cartridge for a conversion

H Wally

H Wally

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Anyone out there have any suggestions for cartridges that a .31 colt could chamber?

The OAL available in the cylinder after the converter was added is 1.34. Pressure can be modified by loading of course.




Biggest problem is finding a cartridge that will not allow the following to be loaded:

A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.



Case in point:

Two potential cartridges WERE .327 federal mag, and .32 H&R Mag. Both would need to be downloaded with a far weaker load of powder.

Problem is, the 32 S&W short cartridge is just the tiniest bit smaller in all respects... so basically it would fit, making it capable of chambering it, and therefore no longer an antique.



I've considered the 8mm lebel revolver cartridge, but have little info on it.
Another option is 31 rimfire. I'd prefer centerfire to be honest.

A final option is sleeving, but I don't know anything about that, and would prefer not to, as altering a cylinder would leave the gun relatively original, or at least returnable to its former state.
 
I don't know your revolver's groove diameter, but the 8mm french 1892 revolver has a groove diameter of .328", so if yours is close to that it could work. It can be made from a shortened 32-20 case. 32 acp is also not on the no list.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, a 32 smith and wesson would fit if a 32 acp would. I'm going purely by the cartridge specs in cartridges of the world (found online).

The .32 acp is almost identical in dimensions to the 32 S&W except for the rim and being larger by .002 of an inch or so on average. :(

Looking into the 8mm lebel some more..... there are several sites that say the 1892 will chamber and fire 32 S&W long and short??? Is this one of those cases of the law "just being the way it is, and the way it is doesn't have to make sense"?

(FYI - they also say that 32S&W short and longs may bulge, but will chamber)
 
If 32acp has the right diameter and is good other than being similar to 32s&w, maybe you could set up the cylinder so that there is not enough headspace for a rimmed cartridge, or with recesses for rims smaller than 32s&w.

I've been wondering too about that "designed or adapted" part. Sounds to me that it is still ok if it is chambered for one cartridge but a smaller one off the list happens to fit also. As far as I know there isn't any precedent about calibers that are similar to the listed ones.

Are you sleeving the bore or is it still good? Do you know its groove diameter?
 
I'd prefer to not sleeve the bore, I don't know enough about it. Also not sure what I would sleeve to. I'm still waffling on the gun I've been offered, needs a fair amount of work on the cylinder, but bore is apparently decent.

I believe the law states that it cannot be made or altered to chamber any of the listed cartridges. So in my interpretation, if it'll fit, that's all they require for it to be disqualified. I'm not sure who I can contact that is actually qualified to give me an informed answer that would be willing to back it up in writing.

I suppose since the cap and ball colts don't have any sort of extractory anyways, the cylinder could always be set up so that the cartridge indexed off of the case mouth? The back of the case could be flush with the cylinder face, or as long as it wouldn't allow the other prohib'ed cartridges it could use the semi rim I guess. If I'm wrong and it's soley dependant on what it's actually chambered for, then we're golden.
 
Basically a cartridge conversion on a Colt involved turning down the rear of the cylinder, leave a central protion with the ratchet. The portion with the nipple seats disappeared. The exposed rear ends of the chambers were reamed to accept the cartridges.
A disc was made to fit over the cylinder extension, and fill the gap between the cartridge heads and the breech face. A firing pin was added to the hammer nose, or a floating firing pin fitted in the disc. If the hammer nose was flattened, a rear sight had to be added.
Catch is that the cylinder walls are going to be very thin. That's why many .31 conversions were to .32rf. This uses a heeled bullet, so the case is as small in diameter as possible.
A loading gate could be installed, along with an ejector rod.
This is a one way conversion. No going back.
Have a look at w ww.anvilenterprises.com.
 
Over and above what Tiriaq has said, unless you are an exceptional machinist, about the only way I can think of indexing the firing pin plate would be to make it from the back of the cylinder with the nipple holes welded up and firing pins installed. My thought is before cutting off the back of the cylinder, to drill for an indexing pin (through the part you are removing and into the remaining cylinder. The only original that I have seen had a pin between the firing pin portion and the cylinder in order to rotate the two together and so that the cylinder chambers lined up with the barrel

cheers mooncoon
 
Trying to duplicate a Kirst style conversion cylinder using the original cylinder would be a challenge. Maybe not even possible.
I have the Anvil Enterprises booklet. Certainly looks do-able. Lathe turned up a blank breech ring, just in case. Still haven't come across an ideal repro. .36 Navy candidate for the project. Ideal candidate = cheap. Just in case the project is a failure.
 
Tiriaq - I understand the conversion process itself, it's the legalities of choosing a cartridge that I'm having problems with.

Every time I find a cartridge that seems like it may be suitable, it also is coincidentally one that may allow a listed cartridge to chamber. That's the problem I'm dealing with. The gun I'm considering has a cylinder with it that isn't original to it. The cylinder itself is absolutely fine except for damage and corrosion to where the nipples were, hence why it seems like a good candidate for conversion. So far no pics, but an extended family member has gone and looked at it.

If this gun doesn't pan out, I don't have a problem selling a couple guns to try it out with a spare cylinder and another gun.

So, to reiterate, my main concerns are finding a cartridge that'll chamber, fit within the cylinder, but not allow one of the listed cartridges to chamber as well. I accept it's a big job with limited purpose, but I'm stupid that way.
 
You need a .32 caliber cartridge that isn't a .32 caliber cartridge. 7.65mm French long comes to mind.
 
It is the headstamp of the factory loaded cartridge that the gun is chambered for which is the issue. When the gun is chambered for a wildcat shell or a modified shell, then the crucial issue is that it must not be capable of chambering one of the factory shells on the no go list. The issue of factory loaded is important. As an example, a .476 Webley will chamber an empty .45 colt shell but not the factory loaded one because the cylinder is 1/8" or so too short and the cylinder will not rotate with the factory loaded shell in place. A handloaded 45 colt shell with the bullet seated considerably short, would work but since it is not a factory load, that does not affect the antique status.
I come by this information some years ago when questioning the government legal section in Ottawa about 32 caliber handguns which in fact shoot .308 bullets. Their reply was the bullet diameter did not matter it was head stamp on a factory load.

cheers mooncoon
 
So as I feared, if it will chamber and cycle one of the listed loaded shells, it is no longer an antique.

I'll take a look at that 7.65 long french.
 
After a couple of months of thinking I may have a solution for this one.

What about a rimless cartridge that indexes off the case mouth like a .45 auto? In a pocket colt you'd be using an extractor rod anyways, so there's no need for a rim for the extractor star to grab onto like on a webley or S&W #3. Since this is just a design for a plinker, speed reloading is not an issue either.

This design would allow you to use whatever caliber, cartridge dimensions etc you wanted because the gun would simply not chamber any of the listed no-go rimmed cartridges due to the design not having room for a rim between the frame and the cylinder.

I haven't looked at cartridge dimensions, but the next step would be designing your own specific cartridge to meet your demands, or to turn the rims down on brass that you like and cut a groove into the case head to facilitate reloading. (though that sounds like a recipe for case head separation to me)

Edit - I suppose making semi-rimmed cartridges would work as well, with very tight tolerances to keep any of the other cartridges from fitting.


Opinions?
 
Excuse me, but has anybody thought of the 7.5 Nagant? It ain't on anybody's list but you can make brass if you really wanta. There are even people making it, but it is not a readily-available commercial round that you can buy at the store.

Personally, I'm sick of the BS coming out of Ottawa. I own an 1858 Remington cartridge conversion, an original, done in 1868. The 'experts' who work for the Government tell me that it now is a .44-40 and so must be registered and all the rest AND it is strictly controlled as a Restricted Weapon. They can't even be bothered opening a book and reading where it sez that the .44-40 was developed in 1873, which is 5 years after this gun was converted. I guess the Army converted their revolvers and then sat around and waited 5 years for Winchester to design a cartridge for them????
Huh?
Oh well, no matter anyway: .44-40 rounds stick up outta the chambers almost a quarter-inch and I really don't feel like banging them in with a hammer.
Well, that must be why they surplussed them, I guess.

It's fun, it really is.

But if you told some of this to a shrink, they would lock you in a place where you can't hurt yourself. Best part is that you get a nice new jacket with really long sleeves into the bargain.
 
I registered it correctly, but their experts (who had never seen it) knew better than me. My competition rifle is now on the 'terrorist weapons' list and I just don't feel like MORE problems.

Re: problem above: I really think that 7.5 Nagant casings might work, even if you stuffed a hollowbase bullet down inside them. Brass IS available although loaded ammo is not. Might be worth a try.
 
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