Looking for advice on Milsurp rifles

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sailor723

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I've been mostly into handguns since I got into shooting and have assembled a small collection of WW I and WW II stuff. I am thinking of dipping my toe into rifles from this period and could use some advice about where to start. I have a SKS but that is it.

So, Lee Enfield....I am thinking about a No4 because of the sights but what to look for?...what would be a fair price? The same questions go for a M1 Garand....what to look for in a "shooter grade"/....what to pay?

I am also drawn to the Suisse K31 The same questions apply. I see them on the EE at $650 and at $1500....what's the difference??

I am less drawn to the K98 simply because of the sights.....57 year old eyes :( ( I can see the target fine.....notch rear sights at arms length...not so much)

I'm a novice in this area so any help is much appreciated.

edit

I'm not looking to be a serious collector at this point, just own some neat, historic guns that i can shoot once and awhile.:d
 
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sailor723 said:
I got into shooting and have assembled a small collection of WW I and WW II stuff. [...]

So, Lee Enfield....I am thinking about a No4 because of the sights but what to look for?...what would be a fair price?

The same questions go for a M1 Garand....what to look for in a "shooter grade"/....what to pay?

I am also drawn to the Suisse K31 The same questions apply. I see them on the EE at $650 and at $1500....what's the difference??

I am less drawn to the K98 simply because of the sights.....57 year old eyes :( ( I can see the target fine.....notch rear sights at arms length...not so much)

[...]
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Where to begin?

1) The Swiss K31 is not, strictly speaking, a WW1 or WW2 milsurp. It is the service arm of a neutral country that hasn't fought in a war in centuries. They are capable rifles with an odd mechanism that some like and some hate. I've had several, sold them all, not for me. Others rave about them. Best be aware, they have no conflict history attached to them to speak of. The differences in price relate to rarity and condition like everything else. I've never paid more than $350 for a K31, and if you look around ,they can still sometimes be found for under $500. Asking prices in the EE is not a great indicator of what they actually sell for.

2) M1 Garand. Know what you are looking at. Literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of the garands currently changing has were recently built on stripped ex-danish issue receivers. Some builders knew what they were doing, others did not. I'd look for one assembled by the military if it were me.

3) K98k - you could get one already tapped for a scope. Note that Swiss K31 sights and K98k sights are basically the same thing.

4) Don't overlook a mosin 91/30. Best budget buy out there now and ammo is easy/cheap to find. In the future we will think back on these years as a happy time to collect Mosins.

5) If you hats tangent sights, then get a No.4 rifle. Avoid restored sporters, the bedding/fitting is usually sub-par on those.
 
Claven2 said:
Where to begin?

1) The Swiss K31 is not, strictly speaking, a WW1 or WW2 milsurp. It is the service arm of a neutral country that hasn't fought in a war in centuries. They are capable rifles with an odd mechanism that some like and some hate. I've had several, sold them all, not for me. Others rave about them. Best be aware, they have no conflict history attached to them to speak of. The differences in price relate to rarity and condition like everything else. I've never paid more than $350 for a K31, and if you look around ,they can still sometimes be found for under $500. Asking prices in the EE is not a great indicator of what they actually sell for.

2) M1 Garand. Know what you are looking at. Literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of the garands currently changing has were recently built on stripped ex-danish issue receivers. Some builders knew what they were doing, others did not. I'd look for one assembled by the military if it were me.

3) K98k - you could get one already tapped for a scope. Note that Swiss K31 sights and K98k sights are basically the same thing.

4) Don't overlook a mosin 91/30. Best budget buy out there now and ammo is easy/cheap to find. In the future we will think back on these years as a happy time to collect Mosins.

5) If you hats tangent sights, then get a No.4 rifle. Avoid restored sporters, the bedding/fitting is usually sub-par on those.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I think i might well start with a No. 4 What would be a fair market price for one in decent "shooting" condition these days?
 
You can pick up a restored No.4 sporter from about 300-400 these days, not as collectible as an original rifle but for a shooter they are good value, and you can beat them up a bit and not be too concerned about damaging the original stock.

An original No.4 seems to be pushing the 600-700 mark these days for a decent one. Long Branch rifles have a premium since they are Canadian made, they are goinfg for about 800 now for a nice one.

The prices have really gone up. I Bout my first Long branch for $450 less then ten years ago, matching with a nice bore and decent condition full wood. same rifle would probably go for close to double now. I wish I bought more when they were that price.

Another good value rifle are the Swedish M96 mausers in 6.5x55. A good one will go for about 400-450. Great shooters and beautifully made.
 
As Claven2 mentioned, beware of "desporterized" rifles. (Especially? Lee Enfields). But finding one that's been very properly restored should cost you less than an original, untouched one, and can be a very good shooter. If you are in the market for one, take the time to find out what key questions you should be asking to potential sellers.

And, again as Claven mentioned, a Mosin 91/30 is a very good place to begin. Genuine, authentic WW2 (or earlier) rifle, find one with really good bore and, ideally, matching numbers, shouldn't cost you more than $200, and enjoy for years or decades. Well taken care of, it could be used by your great grand children.
 
My "old eyes" vote definitely goes to the peep sights.
Garand first choice, but LE No.4 is half the price.
303 British ammo is getting rare and expensive.
My Garand is chambered in 308 so after the purchase price, shooting it is moderate in cost.
 
First stop is a mosin and a crate. Claven nailed it like usual. Then there's a svt40. I don't think the fin stuff or the short stuff (39/44) is worth the premium.

A lot depends on if you hand load. 303 is getting ridiculous. Even for loading I have trouble finding projectiles. Still, who doesn't like enfields. Maybe it's me, but I find Jungle carbines cheaper than full wood 4s and 1s - and just as much fun to shoot.

GP11 ammo for the k31 is pretty reasonable. Probably more accurate than your eyes. Uses 308 projectiles so reloading is reasonable once you have boxer brass.

X2 Swedish masers are worth a look. Don't have personal experience but friends sing there praises. You see reasonably priced 100 year old good condition samples on the EE.

IMHO I find k98 over priced. I also find garands overpriced. Get a m305 if you are leaning towards a garand, at least for a trial basis.
 
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Just one more question.....How much does the factory impact pricing on Lee Enfields? Would a US or Australian made example be any less desirable/valuable than guns from the UK or Canada?
 
With regards to quality of manufacture with the Lee Enfields, i havent heard too much about any significant build quality. My guess that prices reflect people's patriotic bent; Canadians like Longbranch, Australians probably pay the most for Australian made. I've noticed the Ishapore models seem to be a touch cheaper on average, but as far as I've heard the quality is still quite good.

A big thing to keep in mind is ammo cost, and on that front, a Mosin or a K31 is a winner. I have a K31 and a Swedish M38 in 6.5x55. The Swede costs me $1.50-$2.50 a shot, where my K31 in 7.5x55 costs about 62 cents. Mosin ammo (7.62x54r) runs 50-80 cents a shot, on average, depending on the size of the brick and whether it is corrosive or non-corrosive ammo. The swedish mauser kind of shocked me with ammo cost. Keep that in mind and take a look at ammo prices BEFORE committing to a calibre; you'll be glad you did. A nicer gun that you cant afford to shoot is not much fun.

A note with Lee Enfields is that they frequently bolt face/headspacing issues, so much so that the bolt face is a detachable part to allow easy replacement, though i have no idea how hard the different sized bolt faced actually are to find or how much they cost. The message is, get it headspaced and dont be too surprised if it needs it again every so often (i have no idea how often, just that it is more frequently than with most other rifles).

I like Enfields; they have good history, and they have a very unique look somewhere between ugly duckling and beautiful snowflake.

I'd like one (or a few), but the cost of .303 ammo is a concern, and there is no such thing as cheap .303 surplus ammo anymore.
 
I am very happy with my lee enfield no 4 however if I had research the ammo cost first I probably would have bought a mosin. Like others have already said even reloading 303 is difficult and expensive. I can reload 303 for 0.70 cents a shot and that's probably the best you could ever pull off. Finding the .311-.312 projectiles can be difficult. My LGS has them sometimes. They told me that they order as much as possible and get what they get. Sometimes its a bunch sometimes its a box or two. Then they are also different types. I am forced to flip flop between FMJ and soft point because of availability. But even with the negatives Trudeau will never see that rifle registered or in a scrap heap.

I have been eyeing up the indian enfield because they are in 308. They look like a no1 but have a heck of a time finding one. Israel also made a mauser in 308 that I frequently drool over. They show up on the EE for 600 max.

My next milsurp will probably be a mosin because of price and they are pretty awesome. Just got to make sure my crown land does not get shut down
 
Thinks for the info and advice, I appreciate it.

I know about the ammo cost and availability issues with .303 but I actually have a lot of guns that I don't shoot all that often. Other than my AR, my 1911 and some of my 357 revolvers most of my non .22 guns wouldn't see 100 rounds from one year to the next. I bought 1000 rds of non corrosive 7.62x39 for an SKS I bought 18 months ago....I think I still have around 900 ;) Any Lee Enfield I buy would be more to have a neat piece of history rather than as a regular shooter.

I do think I might look for a Garand in .308 though if I decide to look for one. Although, I'm just a little worried about how many of those Marstar Garands might be out there....they were .308 weren't they?:(
 
The Marstar guns will all have german proof markings etched into the side of the receiver along with the word HAUCK. You need to avoid those, definitely.
 
I got into milsurp as my primary arms I own
3 mosin nagant 9130
1 mosin repro sniper
3 SKS (2 laminate 1 wood)
4 SVT 40 (1 tula, 1 izvesk, 1 podolsk former AVT, 1 podolsk no rail)
2 K98's
I like them all and they all are just as good as any modern firearm plus they are tougher easy to clean/maintain. Only black gun I own is a ruger 10/22 takedown. For me I'm just waiting on the paperwork for my restricted license so will be getting to pistols which I know nothing about other than I would like one in 7.62x25 and another in 9mm.

Best single gun to see if you like shooting milsurp is a Mosin nagant, cheap and looks the part of an old russian gun very well. It has more recoil in my opinion than anything on my list, if you can enjoy that you can enjoy the rest. Part of using the old guns is using them in the old way they were used with the iron sights or old scopes etc.... plus the history oh the history, having rifles that may have been used in the defense of Moscow or the battle of Stalingrad just gets my arms shake when I pick them up.
 
The Swiss rifles are the easiest rifles to put on scopes without drilling and tapping the mounts, along with diopters for the K31.
 
Unfortunately, the OP won't really know which style of sights work best for him until he's had a chance to put in some serious practice on the range with various models. Personally my aging eyes don't find the "peep sights" on No. 4's, P14/ M1917's/ Garands/ 1903A3's any better than the blades on SMLE's, Mosins, Mausers, etc. The milsurp apertures are very coarse and far from target sights. I've had the opportunity to test a bunch of different milsurps out to 440 yards and found all types quite acceptable. I would suggest focusing on models that interest you and don't worry about the sights.

milsurpo
 
75 Devil Dog said:
My "old eyes" vote definitely goes to the peep sights.
Garand first choice, but LE No.4 is half the price.
303 British ammo is getting rare and expensive.
My Garand is chambered in 308 so after the purchase price, shooting it is moderate in cost.
Click to expand...

Any reasons not to choose a Garand in .308 over 30-06. Is the fair market value about the same? more? less?
 
There's always casting your own bullets for .303

I reload for my Mosin and the long range stuff with nice match grade projectiles cost me more than milsurp. ($0.80 / rd)

When I use my home made cast boolits they're only $0.20 / rd.
 
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