For verifying that you're not seeing anomalies in group size/node due to velocity deviation.
Sure you can just repeat tests to verify, but if you're running a 6.5x284 loaded hot, barrel life is awful short.
Looking for the best Chronograph
- Thread starter baylisstic1098r
- Start date
For verifying that you're not seeing anomalies in group size/node due to velocity deviation.
Sure you can just repeat tests to verify, but if you're running a 6.5x284 loaded hot, barrel life is awful short.
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Like anything else, one can spend as little or as much as you want. Considering you are shooting a rifle very close to it, can you afford the bang/flop when you shoot your chrony...as in DRT...
No need for a chrono when load testing... for short range bench rest?
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I disagree on not using a chronograph for load testing. Knowing MVs can help troubleshoot and identify possible issues you may have when working up a load. As an example, you eagerly get your rifle and new handloads and head out to the range and start firing groups with an outside temp of 10 C. Unless you shoot at multiple ranges (i.e. 100 and 300m), measure the drop and reverse engineer the MV you won't know if you are at the high end of the velocity spectrum. A chrongraph can help you determine if you are pushing the limits of the calibre and safely allow you to have a load that can work in multiple temperatures. Flattened primers, the amount of soot on the case neck, etc maybe too late if you fire loads that maybe too hot/overpressure in warmer temperature.
A STUPID amount of money....
They're around CA$900 BEFORE tax, (if ordered one at a time) directly from Labradar, as they ONLY ship UPS to dealers and only 1 at a time because of "limited order quantities", and UPS charges $72 in brokerage fees alone on one unit (amounts between $750-$1000).
For that reason alone, I cannot justify selling them. I have had one since MARCH 2015 - and only 2 weeks ago was offered another 1 unit to order....
I guess you got lucky. Mine was shipped UPS from the USA. Cost was $559 plus $45 UPS shipping charge, plus UPS brokerage fee of $76, plus GST of 5%.
At today's rate of exchange, it works out:
$560 + $45 (shipping) x $1.38 (today's credit card conversion from RBC) = CA$835 plus $76 brokerage = CA$911 plus 5% GST = CA$957 delivered. If shipped to say ON, then it's CA$1030.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Sell a few types with the Magnetospeed my personal unit now. Sporter unit seems like a great way to get into the MS product family... at a great price.
If you need/want chrono output data to be valuable for calculations, better make sure the error in the machine is less then the errors you are trying to diagnose.
If any chrono has an error at or greater then 0.5% of its output number, the data is pretty much pointless except to tell you which Hundred FPS are you in. Best to ask the manf for the error inherent with the device itself.
The Magnetospeed WILL change your barrel harmonics if using a lighter contour. So they become useful when the load is figured out or if willing to tweak a little once you get it close with the MS attached.
They do not change my tuning nor POI on my FTR heavy contours and 30" length.. it's a big pipe.
Given testing by OTHERs, the MS seems to be the most reliable system that don't cost alot of money. The LabRadar could change that but we need more then a handful in service to know for sure.... and they are not going to cheap
At any rate, I ALWAYS rely on my target to tell me what is good or not. The Velocity just tells me how much to crank into the scope AND that varies from day to day and even through the same day.
I know there is alot of interest to create robust fire solutions for first shot hits at unknown distances. I get it... but there are also variables within the rifle, bullet, loading, twist, and SHOOTER that can have significant affects the smartphone has no way to deal with.
For me, I know of no other way then to prove EVERYTHING in real world shooting. The stacking of errors in the entire firing system can be quite significant.
Jerry
If you need/want chrono output data to be valuable for calculations, better make sure the error in the machine is less then the errors you are trying to diagnose.
If any chrono has an error at or greater then 0.5% of its output number, the data is pretty much pointless except to tell you which Hundred FPS are you in. Best to ask the manf for the error inherent with the device itself.
The Magnetospeed WILL change your barrel harmonics if using a lighter contour. So they become useful when the load is figured out or if willing to tweak a little once you get it close with the MS attached.
They do not change my tuning nor POI on my FTR heavy contours and 30" length.. it's a big pipe.
Given testing by OTHERs, the MS seems to be the most reliable system that don't cost alot of money. The LabRadar could change that but we need more then a handful in service to know for sure.... and they are not going to cheap
At any rate, I ALWAYS rely on my target to tell me what is good or not. The Velocity just tells me how much to crank into the scope AND that varies from day to day and even through the same day.
I know there is alot of interest to create robust fire solutions for first shot hits at unknown distances. I get it... but there are also variables within the rifle, bullet, loading, twist, and SHOOTER that can have significant affects the smartphone has no way to deal with.
For me, I know of no other way then to prove EVERYTHING in real world shooting. The stacking of errors in the entire firing system can be quite significant.
Jerry
I did an experiment with my shooting partner's Magnetospeed V2 when I was working up a load the other day. I shot my OCW at 100 yards, then put the MS on and shot a group at 100 yards with the same scope setting with the node I found. Then I shot that node at 300 and 400 without the MS.
The load not only shifted, but opened way up with the MS on the barrel. There was as much vertical at 100 with the MS as there was at 300 and 400 without it. This was with a 28" M24 profile barrel.
Velocity tells you a LOT more than your needed come-ups. Velocity, pressure and barrel time (read harmonics) are directly related. You cannot change one without the other two changing. If your velocity changes due to temperature or barrel wear, it will have the same effect as changing your powder charge when working up a load. If your velocity changes, your load re-tunes. Period. This is why benchrest shooters load at the bench.
Knowing what velocity your nodes and the scatter nodes appear at is invaluable for re-tuning loads when your barrel wears, when temperature changes a lot or when you switch lots of components. It will take a LOT less effort to get things working again if you know what's happening with the load at different velocities.
Here is another experiment I did. I loaded up the same bullet(190 SMK) , powder (RL-17) and primers in two different cases (Lapua and Hornady) that had big differences in internal volumes and shot an OCW test with them. I then plotted the X-Y coordinates of the groups around the node in Excel using On-Target to find the centers.
The pattern of the groups around the node were nearly identical. The points in the RL-17 loops occur at the same velocity, but the powder charge was different due to the differences in internal case volume. Tuning the load with the Hornady brass was a lot easier because I already knew what velocity the node occurred at, and just needed to add a little more powder to achieve that in the bigger case.
Another interesting experiment I did was to load up rounds for an OCW test and take it to the range in the middle of winter. I fired that batch as soon as I got to the range before the powder had time to cool. I also let my jug of RL-17 sit out in the cold for over an hour, then loaded up another test in the un-heated clubhouse and shot the test again with cold powder (same lot of components). The nodes and the scatter groups all occured at the same velocities. However, they all required a full grain more powder to reach those velocities.
The load not only shifted, but opened way up with the MS on the barrel. There was as much vertical at 100 with the MS as there was at 300 and 400 without it. This was with a 28" M24 profile barrel.
Velocity tells you a LOT more than your needed come-ups. Velocity, pressure and barrel time (read harmonics) are directly related. You cannot change one without the other two changing. If your velocity changes due to temperature or barrel wear, it will have the same effect as changing your powder charge when working up a load. If your velocity changes, your load re-tunes. Period. This is why benchrest shooters load at the bench.
Knowing what velocity your nodes and the scatter nodes appear at is invaluable for re-tuning loads when your barrel wears, when temperature changes a lot or when you switch lots of components. It will take a LOT less effort to get things working again if you know what's happening with the load at different velocities.
Here is another experiment I did. I loaded up the same bullet(190 SMK) , powder (RL-17) and primers in two different cases (Lapua and Hornady) that had big differences in internal volumes and shot an OCW test with them. I then plotted the X-Y coordinates of the groups around the node in Excel using On-Target to find the centers.
The pattern of the groups around the node were nearly identical. The points in the RL-17 loops occur at the same velocity, but the powder charge was different due to the differences in internal case volume. Tuning the load with the Hornady brass was a lot easier because I already knew what velocity the node occurred at, and just needed to add a little more powder to achieve that in the bigger case.
Another interesting experiment I did was to load up rounds for an OCW test and take it to the range in the middle of winter. I fired that batch as soon as I got to the range before the powder had time to cool. I also let my jug of RL-17 sit out in the cold for over an hour, then loaded up another test in the un-heated clubhouse and shot the test again with cold powder (same lot of components). The nodes and the scatter groups all occured at the same velocities. However, they all required a full grain more powder to reach those velocities.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
All very good points and demands a chronie with output data that is reliable and consistent.
And there in lies the problem. Most commercial accessible and affordable Chronies just aren't that good. The MS seems to be doing a great job. On a lighter contour barrel, I would just confirm after the target tells you the load is promising.
Reports suggests a number of chronies that do not work well in the cold... mostly because of their battery. I used to keep mine in my pocket then quickly plug in before shooting.
Many offer wildly different readings as ambient light changes.
The MS doesn't share these issues. The doppler radar units may be the ideal solution... if they can be made to work.
For retuning, once you have a baseline, working up again is always much easier regardless of the components. Whether just on paper or both, it will end in the same spot. I have 6 barrels on the go and retuning is very simple because I know what I am looking for on target.
By all means, test with a chronie if you have a unit you trust. Otherwise, let the target tell you the tale and if shooting LR, the further away that target is, the better.
Jerry
PS,, I am surprised at how much extra powder you needed with the RL-17. That can really be a PITA if you are hunting and come out of a vehicle to pursue game and your ammo gets cold.... then it warms up again in the truck... then it gets cold. What load are you actually going to get when the rifle goes boom? personally, I would just avoid such a powder.
And there in lies the problem. Most commercial accessible and affordable Chronies just aren't that good. The MS seems to be doing a great job. On a lighter contour barrel, I would just confirm after the target tells you the load is promising.
Reports suggests a number of chronies that do not work well in the cold... mostly because of their battery. I used to keep mine in my pocket then quickly plug in before shooting.
Many offer wildly different readings as ambient light changes.
The MS doesn't share these issues. The doppler radar units may be the ideal solution... if they can be made to work.
For retuning, once you have a baseline, working up again is always much easier regardless of the components. Whether just on paper or both, it will end in the same spot. I have 6 barrels on the go and retuning is very simple because I know what I am looking for on target.
By all means, test with a chronie if you have a unit you trust. Otherwise, let the target tell you the tale and if shooting LR, the further away that target is, the better.
Jerry
PS,, I am surprised at how much extra powder you needed with the RL-17. That can really be a PITA if you are hunting and come out of a vehicle to pursue game and your ammo gets cold.... then it warms up again in the truck... then it gets cold. What load are you actually going to get when the rifle goes boom? personally, I would just avoid such a powder.
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- Location
- Jameson, SK
I didn't see anyone comment on the fact that IF the labradar turns out like they say it will, it allows us to calculate BC's without the risk of shooting your chrony!!!
On a budget, I run the Caldwell old school optical type. It feeds data to my iPhone and makes averages, etc. It's a nice feature - not necessary by any means, but nice.
-J.
On a budget, I run the Caldwell old school optical type. It feeds data to my iPhone and makes averages, etc. It's a nice feature - not necessary by any means, but nice.
-J.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Oh, I don't know... I gave up on my Chronie when it varied its output in the 50-100fps range from day to day.. same ammo, same everything except ambient. Did the morning vs afternoon thing.. yep, it varied
The MS has been far more reliable and consistent but it needs to be on the gun to work so not perfect... at least for some set ups
Good tools lower the amount of error in your data... good data lead to better decisions... better decisions lead to better results.
When the error of the tools exceeds the precision needed to complete a task, it becomes a liability... not an aid.
Jerry
The MS has been far more reliable and consistent but it needs to be on the gun to work so not perfect... at least for some set ups
Good tools lower the amount of error in your data... good data lead to better decisions... better decisions lead to better results.
When the error of the tools exceeds the precision needed to complete a task, it becomes a liability... not an aid.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I am unaware of any optical chronie that doesn't share the same error rate. I think it is tied to the clock that is used????
Why I have moved to the MS... suggested error is less. At least the output looks more consistent - right or wrong I cannot say but the bullet lands where JBM predicts using the input velocity and ambient.
So I call it close enough...
Jerry
Why I have moved to the MS... suggested error is less. At least the output looks more consistent - right or wrong I cannot say but the bullet lands where JBM predicts using the input velocity and ambient.
So I call it close enough...
Jerry
When I put his MS on my 223, it said the velocity was ~150 fps. faster than what my CED said. Which to trust? Firing at 400 yards, the come-ups matched the CED exactly. If I were to believe the MS, I would have required 0.3mil less than what was actually required. Now, there is some variation in trajectory due to differences in actual bullet BC, but not that much.
The 6mm above registered around 70 fps faster with the MS. Once again it's trajectory matched with the CED's reported velocity and not that of the MS. So, my limited experience with the MS did not encourage me to "upgrade" to it in spite of the CED setup being a huge PITA.
The 6mm above registered around 70 fps faster with the MS. Once again it's trajectory matched with the CED's reported velocity and not that of the MS. So, my limited experience with the MS did not encourage me to "upgrade" to it in spite of the CED setup being a huge PITA.
