Looking to buy my first Lee Enfield - looking for some pointers
- Thread starter platnumbob
- Start date
DP as noted upthread means 'drill purpose'. These rifles were set aside by armourers as only fit for drill, for carrying on a jump course where soldiers had to get used to carrying a rifle but didn't have to fire it, that kind of thing.
The problem with them is that it isn't clear now in 2020 why some long-dead weapons tech made that decision. It *may* be something that affects safety, or then again it may not be.
There are people who will argue that they're not safe to fire - personally I have no idea if that's fair or not.
see h ttps://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-193362.html
h ttp://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=25597
Mulvale505
New member
- Location
- Pembroke ON
As people have pointed out it is in fact a Mk III or Mk III* that you are looking for if you want one that is correct to the WW1 period. Some features would be deleted from production as time went on, for example the guns started with special sights for long range volley fire an had a metal flap that went over the magazine so that the rifles were single shot only until an officer ordered that the magazine be used. You still see examples with volley sights but the cutoff is often long gone. Lithgow and Ishapore continued to make this pattern into the 50s with the nomenclature NO 1 Mk III even though England and Canada switched to the updated No4 Mk1. Because the pattern continued production there are many newer and better condition examples available for better prices, sort of like having your cake and eating it too. If you really want one made during WW1 then hold out til you find exactly what you want.
Condition of the bore is the biggest factor, so long as that is good then everything else can be worked with. All of the wooden bits should have a similar colour and patina, if they don't then it is a good indicator that something was replaced. If the receiver was ever drilled and tapped for a scope it is also a good indicator that the rifle was desporterized at some point. Metal bits should all be blued (later production in the 30s and 40s may have parkerized bits). I would recommend looking up the different styles of bolt as the cocking piece did change over the years so if you find one with a non matched bolt then you can at least see if it is the right style. Non matching bolt is not as big a deal as on some other rifles as the bolt head is meant to be replaced on Enfields in order to match with wear on the chamber as there are different sized heads available.
Don't be afraid of a rifle that looks a bit grimy if the bore is good. When I got my MkIII (1918) it was very dirty and I had to pull the bolt open (it should have sprung open). I think it was in someone's attic for many years, but the bore was very good and it cleaned up very well. It was also a good chance to learn more about the rifle and how it handled.
As for shooting, I personally don't have any issues with the sights on my MkIII but it definitely does take getting used to using the older style. If you're used to more modern style sights then a No 4 or even a No 5 (so called Jungle Carbine) may be easier to shoot as they have aperture style sights. I have all three and they are all great though the No5 does have noticeably more recoil. The big advantage of the later versions is that there is generally much less wear on them, especially the 5.
Lastly, if this is your first Enfield there are a few extra things you'll want to have. Stripper clips are starting to become scarce and the price is going up so grab them while you can, and even newer ones from WW2 will work just fine. Ones from WW1 are slightly different and are very hard to find and expensive. Second, a firing pin removal tool. To fully strip the bolt there is a special tool used to get the firing pin out. Getting one makes life easier and they aren't too hard to come by. Third is a broken case extractor, Thankfully Ive never actually had to use mine but its one of those things Id rather have and not need. Not strictly necessary but nice to have. Slings, during WW1 the sling was made of leather and is different from most Enfield slings you see. When the British went to the No4 the chose a new sling and those who continued to use the Mk3 updated their slings as well. A WW2 sling works just fine and was used but there are reproductions out there of the WW1 sling. All versions of the MkIII used the same sword style bayonet and the Aussies and Indians continued to make them as long as the did the rifles so there are lots out there though the older the are the price does go up. 80-100 dollars is usually what Ive seen them priced at. I held out to find one made the same year (1918) as my rifle so again don't be afraid to look around as the bayonets aren't too hard to find.
Condition of the bore is the biggest factor, so long as that is good then everything else can be worked with. All of the wooden bits should have a similar colour and patina, if they don't then it is a good indicator that something was replaced. If the receiver was ever drilled and tapped for a scope it is also a good indicator that the rifle was desporterized at some point. Metal bits should all be blued (later production in the 30s and 40s may have parkerized bits). I would recommend looking up the different styles of bolt as the cocking piece did change over the years so if you find one with a non matched bolt then you can at least see if it is the right style. Non matching bolt is not as big a deal as on some other rifles as the bolt head is meant to be replaced on Enfields in order to match with wear on the chamber as there are different sized heads available.
Don't be afraid of a rifle that looks a bit grimy if the bore is good. When I got my MkIII (1918) it was very dirty and I had to pull the bolt open (it should have sprung open). I think it was in someone's attic for many years, but the bore was very good and it cleaned up very well. It was also a good chance to learn more about the rifle and how it handled.
As for shooting, I personally don't have any issues with the sights on my MkIII but it definitely does take getting used to using the older style. If you're used to more modern style sights then a No 4 or even a No 5 (so called Jungle Carbine) may be easier to shoot as they have aperture style sights. I have all three and they are all great though the No5 does have noticeably more recoil. The big advantage of the later versions is that there is generally much less wear on them, especially the 5.
Lastly, if this is your first Enfield there are a few extra things you'll want to have. Stripper clips are starting to become scarce and the price is going up so grab them while you can, and even newer ones from WW2 will work just fine. Ones from WW1 are slightly different and are very hard to find and expensive. Second, a firing pin removal tool. To fully strip the bolt there is a special tool used to get the firing pin out. Getting one makes life easier and they aren't too hard to come by. Third is a broken case extractor, Thankfully Ive never actually had to use mine but its one of those things Id rather have and not need. Not strictly necessary but nice to have. Slings, during WW1 the sling was made of leather and is different from most Enfield slings you see. When the British went to the No4 the chose a new sling and those who continued to use the Mk3 updated their slings as well. A WW2 sling works just fine and was used but there are reproductions out there of the WW1 sling. All versions of the MkIII used the same sword style bayonet and the Aussies and Indians continued to make them as long as the did the rifles so there are lots out there though the older the are the price does go up. 80-100 dollars is usually what Ive seen them priced at. I held out to find one made the same year (1918) as my rifle so again don't be afraid to look around as the bayonets aren't too hard to find.
Lots of great information, thanks guys. Ya, I am realizing that a No.4 rifle would probably be easier for me to shoot (at least at distance) but I am excited about the WWI rifles and probably will not be putting many rounds through it anyway. I suspect when I find a rifle of interest I will be posting some more specific questions 
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Lots of great information, thanks guys. Ya, I am realizing that a No.4 rifle would probably be easier for me to shoot (at least at distance) but I am excited about the WWI rifles and probably will not be putting many rounds through it anyway. I suspect when I find a rifle of interest I will be posting some more specific questions
+3 for Stuart Hardcastle. He is good people.
Ask him to show you pics of groups shot from his Enfields.
You won't get better value for money.
I checked out his website but he appears to run a refurb and restoration outfit. Is he a good person to touch base with for original/ number matching guns?
I think you have your answer.
I was very excited to see a couple of rifles clearly marked as L39 on his table at a Calgary gunshow a couple of years ago. I have been looking for one for a while. They were not L39s which I thought was a bit naughty from an Enfield dealer/expert.....
So as I learn more about these rifles I have been putting out some feelers. I have a quick question about the MK III and MK III* bayonets. Do any pattern 1907 sword style bayonets fit from any year? Also what is the going rate on these? Mulvale505 noted above that they might be $80-100, but that the older ones fetch a higher value. I was talking to someone yesterday that wanted $225 for a bayonet and sheath which seemed a bit out of whack (and it was not one of the rare hook style).
Chargerguy
CGN frequent flyer
There was an excellent opportunity on the EE last week. A new in the grease, unfired, Savage No4 for $700.
Re. bayonets for the SMLE. The "standard" bayonet for an SMLE is the British/Commonwealth Pattern 1907 sword bayonet. The "standard" version of the 1907 is a ~22 inch long bayonet with a 17" blade. These were made from 1907 until around 1940-ish by the Brits, under various makers and two configurations - the first being the hooked quillion and the second without (although, there was a refurbishment campaign in which hooked quillion variants would have the quillion removed - known as a quillion removed bayonet). The hooked quillion was deleted from spec. in 1914, so no post 1914 bayonet should have a hooked quillion. A genuine hooked quillion bayonet is a $1000+ item, and quillion removed bayonets are $500+ bayonets - condition being the determining factor on the value.
The more standard British/Australian bayonets are generally $180-200 bayonets, depending on condition. A rarer maker like Mole can command a bit more money. Indian 1907 bayonets tend to be valued a little lower than their British counterparts.
There are also a few variants of Indian made bayonets, basically they get shorter blades and cruder finishing/machining as you go through the patterns.
The more standard British/Australian bayonets are generally $180-200 bayonets, depending on condition. A rarer maker like Mole can command a bit more money. Indian 1907 bayonets tend to be valued a little lower than their British counterparts.
There are also a few variants of Indian made bayonets, basically they get shorter blades and cruder finishing/machining as you go through the patterns.
Mulvale505
New member
- Location
- Pembroke ON
It is worth checking any local antique shops and flea markets you have in your area, there is usually someone selling old knives and bayonets and some good deals can be had. If these are going for closer to 200 now Id be a bit shocked, I bought mine two years ago so prices may have changed. All 1907 pattern bayonets should fit all No1Mk3 rifles.
That tends to be the reasonable going rate, at least from sites I frequent that deal in militaria. These sites/businesses are based in Europe, where prices are often more reasonable than I find over 'ere.
I've yet to see any antique shop with a reasonably priced bayonet, I saw a run of the mill Aussie 1907 with a $500 price tag on it in one, a Kiffe M4 (commercial made M4 for sporting goods stores) being sold as a WW2 USMC fighting knife, etc. For all the good the internet has done for collectors, it has also made a portion of sellers "optimists".
I've yet to see any antique shop with a reasonably priced bayonet, I saw a run of the mill Aussie 1907 with a $500 price tag on it in one, a Kiffe M4 (commercial made M4 for sporting goods stores) being sold as a WW2 USMC fighting knife, etc. For all the good the internet has done for collectors, it has also made a portion of sellers "optimists".
Gee, k good to know that the bayonets are so pricey. Maybe I should buy a No 4 enfield instead...nah I still love the look and history of the SMLE. Too bad the pattern 1917 bayo does not fit, there is one for $80 near me.
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Some are and some aren't expensive - bayonets that is. 1907s have been creeping up in price ever since 2014 and the Centennial of the Great War.
No.4 bayonets are interesting. The No.4 series of bayonets started with the No.4 Mk.I - a milled cruciform spike bayonet, very pricey $200-300 is common as total production was only 75,000 made by Singer of Scotland (the sewing machine company). The Mk.II and Mk.II* were made in the millions, are stupidly common and I wouldn't pay more than $30 for an excellent condition example. Having said that, a Canadian Arsenals No.4 Mk.II can command up to $50, because only 5,000 were made during the Korean War. The final, and crudest variant is the No.4 Mk.III, it's hideous and frankly I think everyone was embarrassed that this was even approved because only ~192,000 were made. The No.4 series of bayonets was universally hated by troops, unlike the 1907, and was made obsolete in 1946. Of course, with a No.4 rifle you also open yourself up to getting a No.7 bayonet (pricey, in the $300 or so range) or a No.9 bayonet (bit more expensive than a No.4 bayonet)...
The M1917 and the British Pattern 1914 bayonets will only mount to the M1917 rifle and the P14 - and are interchangeable between the two rifles. The two notches in the grip scales were made to easily differentiate the bayonets from the 1907 Pattern as the bayonets are nearly identical; other than the very different sizes of muzzle rings.
No.4 bayonets are interesting. The No.4 series of bayonets started with the No.4 Mk.I - a milled cruciform spike bayonet, very pricey $200-300 is common as total production was only 75,000 made by Singer of Scotland (the sewing machine company). The Mk.II and Mk.II* were made in the millions, are stupidly common and I wouldn't pay more than $30 for an excellent condition example. Having said that, a Canadian Arsenals No.4 Mk.II can command up to $50, because only 5,000 were made during the Korean War. The final, and crudest variant is the No.4 Mk.III, it's hideous and frankly I think everyone was embarrassed that this was even approved because only ~192,000 were made. The No.4 series of bayonets was universally hated by troops, unlike the 1907, and was made obsolete in 1946. Of course, with a No.4 rifle you also open yourself up to getting a No.7 bayonet (pricey, in the $300 or so range) or a No.9 bayonet (bit more expensive than a No.4 bayonet)...
The M1917 and the British Pattern 1914 bayonets will only mount to the M1917 rifle and the P14 - and are interchangeable between the two rifles. The two notches in the grip scales were made to easily differentiate the bayonets from the 1907 Pattern as the bayonets are nearly identical; other than the very different sizes of muzzle rings.
