Loose primers..

brenden270

brenden270

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Hey guys,

I bought 50 nosler custom brass in 308 and have loaded them a few times. One of my loads is a little hot and it has loosened the pockets to the point that the new primers require very little force to insert. This brass is awesome in every respect except it is a touch soft. My question is... Is it still ok to shoot the brass with loose pockets provided the loads are not hot (well under book max) or should I scrap them? I hate to chuck them they were F#$$ing expensive.




PS the load that caused the problem was 47 grains of varget behind a 155 berger match. Extremely accurate and well within book in the new nosler manual but sticky bolt lift and loose primer pockets.

Brenden
 
Do not reload the cases if the primer goes in very easy. If you can push the primer in with your thumb, it is definetley too loose. If the thumb just about pushes it in, it is likely still to loose.
The danger is the primer may blow out on firing and that can be nasty. I had a 270 blow the primer and it blew the extractor out in a big ball of fire.
your brass isn't soft, your load is too hot. Varget is much too fast a powder for a 270 with a 155 grain bullet. Don't use any powder faster than H4831 for that combination.

Edited; I had it in my mind that he was talking about a 270.
Sorry, I see it is a 308. But it was still much too hot a load, and everything else applies.
 
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Can you get Wolf Primers in Canada?

If so, try some of them. They are slightly bigger than other brands and will often still fit snugly in pockets that are too loose for other brands.

Winchester primers seem to be smaller than others, so if you are using them, try another brand.

If every brand you can get is loose, time to put them in the recycling bin.
 
"Book max" is a guideline, not maximum for YOUR rifle. You have already ruined your nice expensive cases with dangerously high pressure loads. Sticky bolt lift is not an indication loads that are a "little hot" but an indication of loads that are making the brass in the head of the cases flow under EXTREME pressure. Now go buy new brass, re-read the sections in your manual about how to work up a load, and follow the steps.
 
Thanks guys.

Thanks for the input guys. I should have mentioned that only 6 of the 50 have have loose pockets. I'm confused as to why anybody would consider Varget too fast for a 308? It is used by every F-class and silhoutte shooter I have ever known and my inside source at ATK says it is used in some of their factory loads as well. Perhaps you're thinking of another powder? I realize 47grains of varget is hot under a 155 but it works well without problems in all of my 308's with winchester brass. Nosler Brass is very uniform but notoriously soft.Thanks for the helpful responses. I will toss the ones with loose pockets.

Now for longwalker. Thanks for the arrogant, condesceding remarks. I guess you feel real fatherly here b/c you have posted a million times. This also makes you an expert on reloading and such. Just for the record I have been reloading for 15 years and in that time I've properly "worked up" and catologued 7000 rounds without ever having any problems with pressure, ruptures, neck spits or loose primer pockets. I don't need to be rebuked by someone who spends more time behind a computer than a reloading or shooting bench.

Thanks to all others who responded politely.

P.S. (4831, I see you edit about the burn rate...ya it's a 308. Sorry about the long note on why varget works for 308's)
 
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Had the exact same problem with nosler custom competition brass. Likely nothing wrong with your load, it's just how it is (though 47g varget with a 155 is pretty hot).
 
Actually, there is something wrong with the load. It is too hot for the Nosler brass you are using. This is a perfect example of why loads are to be reduced when any component is changed. In your case it was the brass.

I had a similar experience recently, when I loaded up some 308 using a new bottle of Varget. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2732103#post2732103

Fifteen years of experience? I have over forty, and knew better. :redface: However, I stopped after the second round, and went back to the bench.

Ted
 
brenden270 said:
Is it still ok to shoot the brass with loose pockets provided the loads are not hot (well under book max) or should I scrap them? I hate to chuck them they were F#$$ing expensive.
Click to expand...

I understand the thought about expensive brass....

However, the easiest way to rationalize this in your mind is this question:

What would you pay to have your eyes back? $100? $1000? $10000? I know I'd be willing to pay $100 000 to get my vision back after having my eyes burned out from a primer letting loose.......You can buy a lot of Nosler brass for $100 000.........
 
Thanks bcguy and whynot. You guys are right, this is an example of where a load should have been reduced when introducing a new component and I SHOULD have done that. The confusing part was not ALL of the 47g loads exhibited signs of pressure. Most were fine. I did pull the remainder of the hot ones. Even some loaded with Benchmark at relatively low velocity had looser pockets.

I recently read an article in Rifle magazine which was about developing 308 loads. It was very extensive and scientific. One of the factors noted was brass life and it was interesting and suprising to see nosler brass seperated way before any other brand. It's disapointing b/c the uniformity and case weights are amazing. Equal to or better than the almighty Lapua. Too bad. I guess the folks at nosler have the dimensional science down but the metalurgy could be in question.


Thanks again.

Good point Kodiakhunter. Duly noted.
 
You could also have a tight chamber or throat which would increase pressure.

As a curiosity, how many times is "a few times" when it comes to reloading? That could also have some bearing in the premise.
 
None of the cases have been reloaded more than twice. The rifle in question is a remington LTR so chamber specs COULD be tighter than a standard 700 but I doubt it. Your right, that could be a contributor.


Thanks

Brenden
 
Someone here posted a link a while back to a product that they had some interest in, but no one here seemed to have any experiance with it. It was called a "case saver" primer pocket swager to the best of my recollection. I got one to try out. I can say without a doubt that it is money well spent.
Using this product I was able to get 9 firings from a Jamison 338AM case and the primer pocket will still hold. After 4 loadings I used the swager once, I did not have to use it again. I retired the case after 9 firings because the flash hole was eroding somewhat.
The real reason I bought the tool was to try and salvage 100 pieces of .308 Lapua brass that only had one firing.....yea the load was hot. I was able to salvage all 100 pieces even the one that pierced a primer. I was so excited that it worked for that I then saved a bunch of 7RUM brass that I had abused a bit.
This tool works so well it is one of those gadgets that will make you mumble, "why didn't I think of that."
__________________
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.

Good tool By Hart
 
brenden270 said:
Now for longwalker. Thanks for the arrogant, condesceding remarks. I guess you feel real fatherly here b/c you have posted a million times. This also makes you an expert on reloading and such. Just for the record I have been reloading for 15 years and in that time I've properly "worked up" and catologued 7000 rounds without ever having any problems with pressure, ruptures, neck spits or loose primer pockets. I don't need to be rebuked by someone who spends more time behind a computer than a reloading or shooting bench.
Click to expand...

If I came across as arrogant and condescending, my apologies. I just don't want you, or anyone else losing an eye or some fingers. "Book Max" really is a guideline, and a "sticky bolt" is way beyond safe pressure. In the past I have also had a mysterious few rounds of one batch show excess pressure signs like yours when shot in a couple of different .308 rifles. They were well under "book max" - but I stand by my comments, the loads assembled with that particular combination of componenets were too hot for my rifles, as was yours. I currently load for five .308 rifles and for rifles in a dozen other calibers. Rest assured that not all my time is spent at the computer.

If I might politely suggest, I have found that measuring the case head & expansion ring with a micrometer has been a fairly reliable method of determining relative pressure when using new brass to work up maximum loads. I also suggest comparing bullet speed with a chronograph, loads going faster than expected are always higher pressure. That could be due to tight chamber, thick brass, etc. etc.
Good luck!
 
Perhaps you're thinking of another powder? I realize 47grains of varget is hot under a 155 but it works well without problems in all of my 308's with winchester brass.
Click to expand...

But you aren't using Winchester brass.I had pressure signs appear with what should have been fairly mild loads because I was using Lapua brass.After feeling a little extra resistance on bolt lift,I stopped shooting the load and pulled the bullets.I threw out the cases where the extra resistance on bolt lift was detected.Cases vary by volume,as well as by hardness,and changing the volume changes the pressure produced.
 
The current edition of Handloader has a study where some dude compared 10 different brands of 308 brass (among other components).

In order of lightest to heaviest:

Hornady
Winchester
Remington
Norma
Remington (plated)
Lapua
Nosler
Federal (plated and unplated), Military Federal

The Nosler cases are nearly as heavy as military cases. I have to reduce the charge of Varget by 1.1gr. going from Hornady to Lapua cases with the 155 Scenar. There is almost 2.0 gr. water capacity difference (in my chamber) between them. It should be similar going from Winchester to Nosler.
 
manitou210 said:
Someone here posted a link a while back to a product that they had some interest in, but no one here seemed to have any experiance with it. It was called a "case saver" primer pocket swager to the best of my recollection. I got one to try out. I can say without a doubt that it is money well spent.
Using this product I was able to get 9 firings from a Jamison 338AM case and the primer pocket will still hold. After 4 loadings I used the swager once, I did not have to use it again. I retired the case after 9 firings because the flash hole was eroding somewhat.
The real reason I bought the tool was to try and salvage 100 pieces of .308 Lapua brass that only had one firing.....yea the load was hot. I was able to salvage all 100 pieces even the one that pierced a primer. I was so excited that it worked for that I then saved a bunch of 7RUM brass that I had abused a bit.
This tool works so well it is one of those gadgets that will make you mumble, "why didn't I think of that."
__________________
I admit that I know just enough to be dangerous.....but dangerous at ever extending distances.

Good tool By Hart
Click to expand...
Is it this?
http://www.intlmidway.com/intl/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=339607

Where'd you get it (Midway doesn't deal with Canada anymore)? I'd like to get one too.
 
brenden270 said:
Thanks for the input guys. I should have mentioned that only 6 of the 50 have have loose pockets. I'm confused as to why anybody would consider Varget too fast for a 308? It is used by every F-class and silhoutte shooter I have ever known and my inside source at ATK says it is used in some of their factory loads as well. Perhaps you're thinking of another powder? I realize 47grains of varget is hot under a 155 but it works well without problems in all of my 308's with winchester brass. Nosler Brass is very uniform but notoriously soft.Thanks for the helpful responses. I will toss the ones with loose pockets.
Click to expand...

All my experience suggests you're right about Varget. It is a good powder for 308. I burnt a ton of the stuff behind 155 grainers in my old Sportco. But the maximum load I could shoot was 46 grains and I ended up with a load of 45.5 grains that I used consistently. It was still pretty hot, but my rifle shot best at this load. A sticky bolt really is a bad pressure sign, as is an expanded primer pocket, and I agree with the others that 47 grains is probably too hot for the combination you are working with. Glad you decided to turf the cases, even though I like to hold onto cases until they scream myself :). The way I try to think about it is whether it is really worth trying to keep them? It is true you might get some kind of different fit with other primers (sometimes). But you are dealing with stressed cases and who can say what will happen with them, or whether they will shoot the same as the cases in which the pockets aren't loose. You know one thing that is always on my mind too, when I am working up a load and it turns out to be really hot, is what conditions I'm going to be shooting in. If I am going to shoot spring, summer and fall there is going to be a wide variation in temperatures. A load that is hot in the early spring or late fall may well pop a primer or freeze your bolt during a hot summer day, especially with small cases in my experience. The 308 is pretty robust on this dimension because the case isn't all that small, but I used to notice quite a difference at max when the weather got hot just the same. It didn't seem to be as much of a problem during hunting season, of course, because I was usually hunting during fall and winter when temperatures were moderate or cool. Just my $0.02. fred
 
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