Just having a look at Joe Salter's website. Scrolling down through the Winchesters, it's shocking to see how many say " Import Marked", that is to say, from Canada. Joe is a reputable dealer and it's his right to sell his stuff where ever it's legal if he can get a bigger market and higher prices. But it's still sad to see a lot of Canadian history leaving the country.
Losing our History
- Thread starter Mike Webb
- Start date
- Location
- Algoma region
Lots of Canadian marked sniders leaving the country as well, sold for a pittance of their true Canadian historical value.
- Location
- St. Joe's Island, Ont
Salter is a U.S. citizen, whats he care if he can get all the Canadian gun he wants and sell them down south for double. If you wanna be pissed at someone find the guy thats exporting and finding all the guns for Joe.
I get a kick out of the guy on Gunbroker from Canada thats buying up worn out Winchester grey rats and parting them out on GB for 3 times what he bought it for. The guns were probably good shooters till he tore them apart.
I get a kick out of the guy on Gunbroker from Canada thats buying up worn out Winchester grey rats and parting them out on GB for 3 times what he bought it for. The guns were probably good shooters till he tore them apart.
I used to be upset about the way he does business especially when I called to ask him about buying a piece of Canadian history and I was advised that he would not consider shipping to Canada! The particular rifle I had inquired about came from Canada not two weeks before I called. Money talks and he has cash in his pockets. The same Canadians who won't consider paying decent prices for Canadian marked rifles will buy one of those pieces of junk from IMA / Atlanta Cutlery because it's $200.00 less and then spend that much trying to repair it to 40% of the condition the Canadian piece was in to start with. "Cheap" is how come those "C" marked rifles are in Joe Salters hands.
Well to be Fair theres plenty of American history in the CGN EE to eh... 
myself and others have imported sold alot of American Handguns Remy 1875s and SAA Colts ect that are part of the American history so its kinda a free trade thing i guess.
I think Dantforth has nailed it on the head with his post..
I wont stop buying American history guns and import them up here for myself and other Canadians to have and shoot. like the two sharps 50 70s i imported, its a fun hobby.
I know theres alot less Canadian history guns out there than American guns by a long shot tho so understand the concern.
myself and others have imported sold alot of American Handguns Remy 1875s and SAA Colts ect that are part of the American history so its kinda a free trade thing i guess.
I think Dantforth has nailed it on the head with his post..
I wont stop buying American history guns and import them up here for myself and other Canadians to have and shoot. like the two sharps 50 70s i imported, its a fun hobby.
I know theres alot less Canadian history guns out there than American guns by a long shot tho so understand the concern.
I've imported several nice pieces of American history into Canada. However, one of the reasons Joe Salter has a ready supply of Canadian guns going south is:
a) the lower Canadian dollar, which is not low anymore, so that problem's solved
b) Canadian collectors simply do not want to pay what the Americans are willing to pay, so even if the dollar is at par, some guns are still worth more in the USA.
The result is that there are a lot fewer old Winchesters here in Canada than there were 10 years ago. With the dollar at par, however, it makes it easier for us to start hauling those guns back to Canada, provided we can outbid our American brothers for those guns.
a) the lower Canadian dollar, which is not low anymore, so that problem's solved
b) Canadian collectors simply do not want to pay what the Americans are willing to pay, so even if the dollar is at par, some guns are still worth more in the USA.
The result is that there are a lot fewer old Winchesters here in Canada than there were 10 years ago. With the dollar at par, however, it makes it easier for us to start hauling those guns back to Canada, provided we can outbid our American brothers for those guns.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
It's true we have seemed to have undervalued, our own Canadian historical firearms.
This is a selfish plug, but I don't ever plan on letting go my S&W Heavy Duty in 38 special. It arrived in Canada in 1940, and has a BCPP rack number.
This is a selfish plug, but I don't ever plan on letting go my S&W Heavy Duty in 38 special. It arrived in Canada in 1940, and has a BCPP rack number.
- Location
- Winnipeg,Man.
The last show I was at locally, there was a U.S. gent there looking for Winchesters. He was paying piddly for them ( i overheard some of the offers and unfortunately sales) and he attested that he had over 500 so far that were being shipped south.
Guess the all mighty buck persuades sellers to let the guns go because of the low Canadian prices offered for them. Soon there will be just old worn out pieces left for us to fight over. I will not sell to U.S. people and Win 38-55 can attest to my guns originality. I would rather give them to a museum and at least get a tax break. then they will stay where their history lays.
Guess the all mighty buck persuades sellers to let the guns go because of the low Canadian prices offered for them. Soon there will be just old worn out pieces left for us to fight over. I will not sell to U.S. people and Win 38-55 can attest to my guns originality. I would rather give them to a museum and at least get a tax break. then they will stay where their history lays.
stickhunter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Victoria, B.C.
This is an interesting point because I can't say I haven't contemplated it myself once-or-twice. There are a lot of older rifles, especially those with aging bores, whose sum of parts is worth more than the whole --- that's in dollar terms, not historical terms. I just don't have the heart to do it, though it's tempting after trying to source some parts for an old Marlin of mine and seeing how quickly the costs add up.
I guess the economics are similar to the case where it's often more lucrative to sell a rifle and scope seperately than as a package, but the stakes are lot greater with these older rifles that will never be made again.
Am I correct in understanding from the OP's post that firearms imported to the US from Canada get permanent (e.g., electro-pencil) importation marks? Is this always the case?
then buy it... I rather see a gun go to someone who wants to have it for historical purpses then someone that just wants it for what ever reason.. I have no problem with them selling things like that... sure its part of history but thats the whole idea when you buy it.. its part of history thats why people want it.. and exporting it not a big deal..
my grandfather did that... then the mussiam was told they had to turn the guns in blah blah blah.. because they didnt want to give them the permit to keep the full auto... they just disasembled them all into parts to avoid it.. and it seemed to work
so they got the paper work and asked me and a few other people to put them back together,..Yes. Old Winchesters purchased in Canada and imported into the USA, unless they are legal USA antiques, are permanently marked. For an example, look at the photo of the underside of the barrel just forward of the forearm tip and octagon-to-round transition WWWWWW.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=13812 That really rips me when I see that. If someone ever scribed a bunch of letters and numbers on one of my old Winchesters, it would require great restraint on my part to avoid busting his chops. When I do buy an old Winchester in the USA and import it into Canada, I avoid any with import marks, as it devalues the rifle in my opinion.
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I agree with you .Win 38-55.If I was purchasing a firearm as a collector firearm I would not want a bunch of letters and numbers stamped on it either.
Not to long ago I was talking to a guy who knows some of the guys who are running around getting old firearms to feed to Joe.
Joe does alot of buying himself,go to Eganville in August and he will be there on the Friday night with lots of ca$h
Thats a gentleman from Central Ontario
Meanea
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That's maybe the only saving grace. Many U.S. collectors will not buy import marked guns unless they are super rare. The same situation existed in the military rifle collecting field in the U.S.. Pre 1968 guns were not import marked and were worth a premium over import marked milsurps. I don't think there's much of a difference now that the supply of unmarked milsurps has dried up pretty much south of the border.
Losing our History
I have been reading this thread and thought I would correct a few of the comments that have been stated. Yes a lot of the guns that we see on Joe Salter’s site and many other sites in the US do come from Canada. As stated he buys from either collection, eastern region gun shows, Canadian auctions and connections in Canada that he has made in the past 40+ years. Joe is not a US citizen as stated in one of the replies, he lives in Cape Breton from where is has operated from before opening the business in the US and operating a Web Site for the past few years. He has offered many of his guns with Canadian History here in Canada but for some reason there is not a lot of interest in the Canadian history here in Canada to the point people are willing to invest. Case in point were the 2 guns belonging to the Canadian Aces, Billy Barker and Billy Bishop. When offered in Canada there were no takers. I last seen these guns being offered in the US for sale. It is sad that no one offered to purchase these guns in Canada not even the Canadian Government. The last I heard about these guns was that the RCMP had set Joe up in an elaborate sting operation and the guns were seized.
Another comment that was made is that Joe has lots of cash to take to the gun shows, it’s not cash anymore these days, but he pays by business cheques. In the future the tax man may come knocking at your door.
Some of the people that have made the comments to this thread know me and may say the same about letting my guns go South. I do know a number of US citizens that have Canadian PALs and regularly come to Canada and buy guns to take back to the US, all perfectly legal. Once these guns are back in the US they can be taken off the Canadian registry and that person can do what he pleases with them. I believe that only guns imported through a business need to be engraved with import numbers.
I also regularly watch sites like Joe Salter’s and always offer my merchandise for less than these sites. I would like to see all the guns that are in Canada stay here for future generations of Gun Collectors and enthusiasts to have access. But I also hear continually that prices are to high at Canada Gun Shows and on EE. I am not sure what they are comparing these prices to?
Canadians will still search the US sites and buy from there rather then find something comparable in Canada. The reason is that there is not enough sites like CGNs to give Collectors an opportunity to find more of this stuff in Canada.
This may have sounded like a rant but I thought I would offer my comments and thoughts to subject. I have known Joe for about the past 25 years see him regularly at Gun Shows on both sides of the border I have not bought from him or he from me in the last 10 to 12 years. My enjoyment in collecting comes from being able to find guns that other collectors may not be able to find and offering these pieces for sale at reasonable prices. Guns that do not sell go back into my collection to be offered at a later time or used as Gun Show merchandise. This brings up the issue with good guns being parted out for parts. I recently sold a couple of old 92 Winchesters that had been on EE and lugged around to Gun Shows being offered at reasonable prices. I was made an offer and sold these guns to an individual who in turn parted and sold these guns for parts. Both guns were all original but had no finish left on them. I am sure he doubled his money on these guns. There is nothing that we can do or should care about what another person does with his or her property. For people that criticize individuals for doing this, start by buying and saving these guns from the scrap pile.
I would like to thank all that have taken the time to read this and supported me in the past and hopefully in the future.
Road King
I have been reading this thread and thought I would correct a few of the comments that have been stated. Yes a lot of the guns that we see on Joe Salter’s site and many other sites in the US do come from Canada. As stated he buys from either collection, eastern region gun shows, Canadian auctions and connections in Canada that he has made in the past 40+ years. Joe is not a US citizen as stated in one of the replies, he lives in Cape Breton from where is has operated from before opening the business in the US and operating a Web Site for the past few years. He has offered many of his guns with Canadian History here in Canada but for some reason there is not a lot of interest in the Canadian history here in Canada to the point people are willing to invest. Case in point were the 2 guns belonging to the Canadian Aces, Billy Barker and Billy Bishop. When offered in Canada there were no takers. I last seen these guns being offered in the US for sale. It is sad that no one offered to purchase these guns in Canada not even the Canadian Government. The last I heard about these guns was that the RCMP had set Joe up in an elaborate sting operation and the guns were seized.
Another comment that was made is that Joe has lots of cash to take to the gun shows, it’s not cash anymore these days, but he pays by business cheques. In the future the tax man may come knocking at your door.
Some of the people that have made the comments to this thread know me and may say the same about letting my guns go South. I do know a number of US citizens that have Canadian PALs and regularly come to Canada and buy guns to take back to the US, all perfectly legal. Once these guns are back in the US they can be taken off the Canadian registry and that person can do what he pleases with them. I believe that only guns imported through a business need to be engraved with import numbers.
I also regularly watch sites like Joe Salter’s and always offer my merchandise for less than these sites. I would like to see all the guns that are in Canada stay here for future generations of Gun Collectors and enthusiasts to have access. But I also hear continually that prices are to high at Canada Gun Shows and on EE. I am not sure what they are comparing these prices to?
Canadians will still search the US sites and buy from there rather then find something comparable in Canada. The reason is that there is not enough sites like CGNs to give Collectors an opportunity to find more of this stuff in Canada.
This may have sounded like a rant but I thought I would offer my comments and thoughts to subject. I have known Joe for about the past 25 years see him regularly at Gun Shows on both sides of the border I have not bought from him or he from me in the last 10 to 12 years. My enjoyment in collecting comes from being able to find guns that other collectors may not be able to find and offering these pieces for sale at reasonable prices. Guns that do not sell go back into my collection to be offered at a later time or used as Gun Show merchandise. This brings up the issue with good guns being parted out for parts. I recently sold a couple of old 92 Winchesters that had been on EE and lugged around to Gun Shows being offered at reasonable prices. I was made an offer and sold these guns to an individual who in turn parted and sold these guns for parts. Both guns were all original but had no finish left on them. I am sure he doubled his money on these guns. There is nothing that we can do or should care about what another person does with his or her property. For people that criticize individuals for doing this, start by buying and saving these guns from the scrap pile.
I would like to thank all that have taken the time to read this and supported me in the past and hopefully in the future.
Road King
Road King, you are absolutley right. I was not criticizing Mr. Salter or any other dealer just pointing out that with a bigger market therefore higher demand and prices antique guns are going to go stateside to some degree. I heard about the WW1 aces handguns some time ago and was disgusted by our national museums reluctance to purchase irreplacable pieces of Canadian history. I don't believe the story was ever carried by the mainstream media which is no surprise. But it's still unfortunate that there are not enough buyers in Canada for these things.
Road King raises a good point that I mentioned in my first post. I wrote, "Canadian collectors simply do not want to pay what the Americans are willing to pay, so even if the dollar is at par, some guns are still worth more in the USA." The bottom line is that if there is a pile of Canadian stuff, and Americans value our Canadian stuff more than we Canadians do, then we should not complain if our Canadian stuff ends up in the hands of the people who value it more than we do. I've brought a total of five American classic old guns into Canada, but I've sold two Canadian guns south of the border. In both those cases I advertised them here on CGN EE. One was a Winchester Model 1886 .45-90 with full octagon and button mag, all original, made in 1888, and the other was a Winchester Model 1892 carbine made in 1893. In both cases, I did not get a single offer, although both of these were several years ago. After zero interest from Canadians, I shipped them south and sold both of them immediately. I would have liked to keep them in Canada, but if there was no interest, and I need the money to buy something else, then I can't be sitting on them for 10 years waiting. Now before some of you take me out behind the barn to pound some sense into me, let me remind you that, although I've sold two guns down south, I've brought five into Canada. The bottom line is this: As long as Americans put a higher value on Canadian guns than Canadians do, there will be a steady leakage of Canadian guns going south. Other people like our stuff more than we do, simple as that. In other words, Americans put a higher value on Canadian old guns than Canadians do. Of course, I'm speaking in generalities. There are some of us here who do value old Winchesters, Colts, S&W's etc. enough to actually compete with the Americans and go down there and buy their stuff and bring it back to Canada. I had to smile with the latest old Winchester I brought into Canada from the USA (an original Winchester Model 53 32-20). An American found out I had raided their stuff and was not very happy about it. But it had sat for sale on Leroy Merz's site for months while I hemmed and hawed over whether to get it, so he had plenty of chance to make his move. So next time you check out EE or go to a gun show looking for a particular piece, take a look at what the same gun has actually sold for on GunBroker. Don't pay any attention to the asking prices on GunBroker, just the actual selling prices. That will give you an idea of what the fair market value is in the USA. You need to know that, because there are Americans looking through CGN EE just like you are, and there are Americans with PAL's going to the same Canadian gun shows you are, and you are going to have to compete with them whether you like it or not ..... and if the American standing next to you at that gun show table happens to put more value in the piece of Canadian history laying there than you do (it hurts to think of all the Winchester Model 1876 NWMP SRC's that are now south of the border), then we really can't complain, can we. All this being said, I would hope that everyone of us gives Canadians first shot at whatever we are selling by posting it on CGN EE.
P.S. The sixgun I'm holding in the avatar photo is an original S&W Schofield used by the US Cavalry back in the mid-1870's. The little history I was able to find about the use of the Schofields by the Cavalry was that the Schofields saw heavy use by the Cavalry units most involved in the Apache wars. There are quite a few Americans not happy at all at the fact that I brought a Schofield with that history out of the USA into Canada. I sold it to another forum member here, so no longer have it (in case some of you were thinking of PM'ing me with an offer).
P.S. The sixgun I'm holding in the avatar photo is an original S&W Schofield used by the US Cavalry back in the mid-1870's. The little history I was able to find about the use of the Schofields by the Cavalry was that the Schofields saw heavy use by the Cavalry units most involved in the Apache wars. There are quite a few Americans not happy at all at the fact that I brought a Schofield with that history out of the USA into Canada. I sold it to another forum member here, so no longer have it (in case some of you were thinking of PM'ing me with an offer).
Until the laws change (particularly antique laws), I simply don't see this situation changing much. Getting a gun across the Canada/US border legally tends to be such a (often quite costly) hassle that once a gun gets there, or here, it tends to stay where it is.
