Lower pressure factory loads?

Algonquin

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Hello gunners,

I'd really appreciate any experiences using and sourcing lower pressure upland loads for a pre-war sxs in 16 ga. Ideally, where grouse loads of this type would be available near the Ottawa Valley region. I also wondered about trap or skeet loads called, I think, target loads since they seem lower pressure. I'd be happy with something below 9,000 psi since this particular 16 ga. is said to have 2 9/16 chambers and still has orginal forcing cones (L C Smith Field grade).

Thanks for your help,

FM
 
The only stuff available in Canada is Kent/Gamebore 2.5". Great shells for older guns. Call Kent Canada to get a list of stocking dealers. The other option that I do when the oppertunity comes up is ti buy RST'S 2.5" in the USA and bring them across the border yourself. I hand load for my 16's and am a member of the 16ga low pressure group. Factory 2.5's are usually expensive so I bought an exra mec 600 (used ) and put 16ga dies dedicated to short shells.
Cheers/luck! John
 
Thank you, gents.

Word has it these LC Smith thingamabobs have sufficient strength that owners attest to shooting 2 3/4 inch shells regularly in these smaller bore guns but only using lower pressure loads. That sounded fine to me. Would target loads suit grouse shooting in dense cover? Must admit I haven't measured the chokes, yet. My first sxs was a 16 ga back in 1964 and I have a personal like of this bore, particularly for upland.

Once I have a handle on what to expect and what's avaiable in 16 bore I have plans to have the forcing cones lengthened and cleaned a bit which reduces pressure somewhat.

FM
 
The only stuff available in Canada is Kent/Gamebore 2.5". Great shells for older guns. Call Kent Canada to get a list of stocking dealers. The other option that I do when the oppertunity comes up is ti buy RST'S 2.5" in the USA and bring them across the border yourself. I hand load for my 16's and am a member of the 16ga low pressure group. Factory 2.5's are usually expensive so I bought an exra mec 600 (used ) and put 16ga dies dedicated to short shells.
Cheers/luck! John

Sorry but you can't bring back ammunition from the US.

"Purchasing ammunition from a Federal
Firearms Licensee (FFL) or a nonlicensee
to possess in the United States

A nonimmigrant alien generally MAY NOT purchase
ammunition from an FFL or a nonlicensee to
possess in the United States. If you violate this
prohibition, you could receive a maximum of 10
years of imprisonment. "

The above is from an ATF document
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-18.pdf
 
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hmmm, took a second look and thought I'd ask if 1260fps is correct -- that IS impressive for that pressure range!

Are these lead shot? I'm upland with this particular oldie.

Thank you,

FM

Ahsan is correct. These are nitro powder shells in 2 1/2" with 1 oz (IIRC) lead load. "Pure Gold" is the name given to these shells by Gamebore. I love 'em - wouldn't shoot anything else in my vintage 12 gauges.

Don't be swayed by the "light load" designation given to target loads. For the most part, this moniker refers to the pellet load, not the powder charge. A 2 3/4" target load will develop dangerous "peak" pressures when used in your Elsie. First off, they routinely generate pressures in the 11 - 12,000 psi range. In addition, when 2 3/4" shells are fired in 2 1/2" and 2 9/16" chambered guns, the crimp has no place to go, except to open into the forcing cone. This additional constriction of the forcing cone raises pressures even higher than the same shell would produce in a gun chambered for the shell.

About 3 years ago, we pretty much begged Kent to bring in Gamebore's 2 1/2" low pressure loads. They imported a skid of mixed 12, 16, and 20 ga. At the time, I bought a flat of each gauge. I use them exclusively for hunting, so I have supply to last me years to come.

By coincidence, just last weekend I heard that my hunting partner and I were the only ones to buy more than a few boxes at a time. I can't say for certain, but I suspect some of that shipment persists in local gun shops (P&D Enterprises here in Edmonton initially received the whole shipment).
 
Thanks for verifying that, Straight.

Gamebore loks perfect for my purposes but I haven't found them around the upper Ottawa Valley as of yet. I would happily buy a flat of 12 ga. and 16 ga. as well if that didn'require me to drive to Toronto or similar horrors.

I did just buy a box of Rio upland 16 ga which at 2 3/4 are still a concern but reviews are positive for use in pre-war sxs at least as far as LC Smith guns go. Any way to ballpark the pressure rating of factory loads based on minimal provided data?
Got to have SOMETHING to go pop with while searching for Gamebores!

FM
 
The first box of Kent Gamebore 16 ga. 2.5" #6 that I ever bought was used in my old Ithaca Flues double. I was a little leery about the patterns I could expect form the old style fiber wads. That box of shells killed 15 birds for 25 shots. Huns, pheasant, sharptails, pigeons, and ruffed grouse. I was a believer then! I just bought another case of them for my old Sauer drilling.
I think the shot used in Kent lead shells is the best in the industry.
 
Get the Kent BP 16 Ga 2 1/2".... they're FUN! to shoot and easy to reload....


**** EDIT; The factory loads are for guns proofed to at least 3 Tons per Sq. Inches (12 000 PSI Proof pressure), so it should be below the 9000 PSI you are looking for.


16ga2_5KentBP2.jpg


16ga2_5KentBP1.jpg


16gaBPHVAM20.jpg
 
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BTW,

Regarding British Proofing of Smooth Bores;

BritishProof1.jpg


BritishProof2.jpg


BritishProof3.jpg


As you can see, 2 3/4 Drams should be OK with most 1887 and up 16 Ga smoothbores with British proofmarks.
 
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Just to be clear, Baribal is talking about 2 3/4 Drams of black powder NOT 2 3/4 Dram "equivalent" of nitro powder. The difference is that nitro (modern smokeless) powder is more explosive. Consequently, it burns faster, even when the blaine is very coarse. The faster burn rate translates into more pressure because it builds up more quickly.

The answer to your question is "No. There is no way using Dram equivalence, Shot size, Shot load, and/or maximum velocity to calculate peak pressure".

What the Gamebore loads (and others like them) do is to mix retardants into the nitro powder to deliberately cause the powder to ignite and burn more slowly, thus reducing the peak pressures down into the 8,500 psi range. Still, I had to look long and hard to find the pressures that could be expected from these shells. Even Gamebore understands that they mustn't guarantee the maximum pressures of these shells because they could randomly produce a 'hot' load or two at any time. Used in an "iffy" gun, they could result in damage or injuries.

For this reason, shooters who purchase and shoot vintage guns are wise to inform themselves of the facts, the risks, and best practices. No different than any other firearm, you need to know what you're doing. Equally like any other firearm, they can be used perfectly safely provided basic safety measures are observed.

Check your Elsie for dings, cracks, pits, rust and other corrosion. "Ring" the barrels to see if the rib is coming loose or problems exist that can't be inspected visually. Keep her clean and lightly lubricated. Check often for obstructions in the barrels while in the field (leaves, snow, etc can get in the barrels while stopped for a rest, for example). You've probably heard all this before. Just keep in mind that, the older the gun, the more important these become.

Oh, and enjoy your time in the uplands and your vintage Elsie. No greater pleasure can be had with your pants on!:cheers:

ETA: My comparison of the two powders is intended to be a discussion about commercially available shells. If it becomes a discussion about one type of powder versus another, anything is possible. For example, tests with black powder have shown that, under the right conditions, pressures as high as 100,000 psi are possible. While this is factual, it doesn't contribute to a discussion on appropriate loads for vintage or other shotguns.
 
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And check for the correct proof marks.

As stated by our mate above, the Dram Eq is a velocity "measure", not pessure. Everything I supplied is based on BP loads.
 
low pressure for 16 gauge

hello there, i load for a remington 1894 hammerless double with damascus barrels, my gun has 2 9/16" chambers, i load plastic hulls, i cut them to 2.5" from 2 3/4" cut crimp right of with sharp utility knife, i then remove and re prime, i use a mec for this, then ill use either 2f or 3f black powder, around 70 grains, then a fiber wad, then a very thin card ,then shot, 1oz of 6 is best for my gun, then i put an over shot card, and i have purchased an old roll crimp tool, this sounds like alot of work, but, its pressure safe for any double with short chambers, kills like lightning on birds, pressure for this load is a little over 6000psi, i also load buckshot with it, i also have tried other powders like pyrodex rs, and goex clearshot, all work very well, only thing is you have to swab bores out after hunting with hot soapy water, the hotter the better, heat will dry them out, then oil them, treat it basically like a mzzleloader, i do this for 12 gauge and 10 gauge also, cheaper than smokless loading, as you dont have to be compeonent specific with loads, you can play around with wads and charges and primers, to get the best combination

hope this helps, if you need more insight on this, you can email me at coltkid_93@hotmail.com, id be more than willing to help out
 
Good information and wow, like that BP picture!

On the L C Smith Collector site I see a reference to original hang tags for 16 ga. having an upper limit of 2 3/4 dram equiv. and I see the Field shells from Rio that I just bought to try are also 2 3/4 dram equiv. with 28 grams if that indicates anything relevent. Point taken about the impossibility of using this data to guesstimate upper limit pressure but can one make an inference from typical offerings from other suppliers? I read on the internet (so it's TRUE) that L C Smith shooters list this Rio shotshell as safe in good guns. No idea how to verify the pressure of the Rio loadings.

All this while I wait to find a way to access Gamebore 2 1/2 inch cartooches. I don't see a listing for these at LeBaron's in Ottawa.

I am really liking this FW framed Elsie as a grouse threatener. It points and swings well. I'd like to enjoy this for some time to come.

FM
 
The manufacturers usually take slow burning powders wich lowers the pressure(well,for shotshell, slow is relative and you usually can determine that by weighting the powder charge and comparing to others - they should be heavier). Actually, they SHOULD be into the pressure spec, just because of liability issues. They usually follow SAAMI / CIP specs (unless they don't suscribe to one or the other or both). Last CIP issue stipulates a PTMax (MAP) of 780 bar (11 380 PSI) for 16 Ga 2 1/2" and 740 bar for the 12 Ga 2 1/2" (10 733 PSI).
Usually lower velocities translates in lower pressure for a given pellet load. Just take ammo that stipulates "for Vintage guns use" or "for English shotguns" os similar.
Epps had some Gamebore / Kent some time ago.
 
Usually lower velocities translates in lower pressure for a given pellet load. Just take ammo that stipulates "for Vintage guns use" or "for English shotguns" os similar.

Can't say I agree with that statement in its entirety.

As far as I'm aware, Gamebore 2 1/2inch, 1oz cartridges generate....

- 12ga Pure Gold: 1295fps (7832psi)
- 12ga Pure Gold (Paper): 1295 fps (6526psi)
- 16ga Game & Hunting: 1260 fps (8122psi)
- 20ga Game & Hunting: 1246 fps (8122psi)

In terms of the more "conventional" (if you will) modern shot shells, a 2 3/4in factory cartridge will usually hurl birdshot at around the same (or lower) velocities cited above and yet may generate pressures well over 10k psi.
 
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As far as I'm aware, Gamebore 2 1/2inch, 1oz cartridges generate....

- 12ga Pure Gold: 1295fps (7832psi)
- 12ga Pure Gold (Paper): 1295 fps (6526psi)
- 16ga Game & Hunting: 1260 fps (8122psi)
- 20ga Game & Hunting: 1246 fps (8122psi)

In terms of the more "conventional" (if you will) modern shot shells, a 2 3/4in factory cartridge will usually hurl birdshot at around the same (or lower) velocities cited above and yet may generate pressures well over 10k psi.

Charts are important but never seem to quite deliver the conclusive answers we're looking for. I find the velocities indicated for 2 1/2 Gamebore cartridges surprisingly good and with pressures within the vintage gun limits. How can this be? It either invokes some arcane exception to the usual laws of physics or just does all the usual things that much better. I like that.

FM
 
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