Lube .22 ammo?

Will different lube make a rimfire bullet perform better?
I know they use a different lube for Biathlon ammo for winter and out of my guns in winter testing it does shoot better. I will test that ammo in summer and compare.
Is it the lube or bullet shape between different mfgs. or how the dies are working that day in production.

I remember the moly coat days with centerfire. It came and went. Didn't really catch on in BR shooting either.
Lubing in cast bullet shooting definitely makes a difference
 
SK and Lapua both use a "greasy" type of lubrication on standard velocity .22LR ammo. Eley uses a beeswax tallow lubrication. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that one is better for accuracy than the other.

Both Eley and Lapua use their own specially formulated lubes for biathlon ammo. It must perform well in sub zero temperatures. Bullet shape is important for consistent chambering in biathlon conditions and Lapua biathlon bullets in both Polar Biathlon and Biathlon Xtreme have a shape that's different from other Lapua ammo.

The copper in copper-plated HV ammo serves as a partial lubricant and preventer of leading, but the real lubrication is a wax that's dissolved in a solvent and then applied to the bullet. The lubricant is barely noticeable. The result is a drier bullet that won't get fingers greasy, pick up lint in pockets or significantly contribute to fouling the action of semi-autos. The copper plated HV ammo is inaccurate for reasons other than the lubrication.
 
My sons biathlon rifle never had one problem with non biathlon ammo. I mean we never tried SK Biathlon specific ammo, but the 6 or 7 ammo types we tested never had a problem. Maybe his rifle does not have the top tier chamber in it, I only assume they have different ones.
 
grauhanen said:
There are two important caveats to the "it's both" claim.

The first is that Lapua or Eley (or other ammo-specific) chambers are only found on custom barrels with specific chambers. Anyone who wants a Lapua or Eley friendly chamber needs to get a custom barrel and have the barrel manufacturer cut that chamber. They aren't available on factory-made rifles.

To elaborate, factory rifles will have a chamber that is made to CIP dimensions or SAAMI dimensions. Chambers on CIP-specification rifles will have chambers no smaller than the minimum dimensions permitted under law. That includes rifles from manufacturers such as Anschutz, Walther, FWB, Bergara, CZ, Tikka, Sako. The length may be longer or shorter on different rifles, but they can't be any shorter than what CIP specs require. CIP specs call for a 5 degree leade and so, too, do SAAMI specs for both Match and Sporting chambers.

The reason why most firearms makers don't put ammo-specific chambers in their rifles is so that shooters can use a variety of match ammos. Even Vudoo, which uses a Lapua-friendly chamber on the V22 custom barrels, says the Ravage V22 chamber is "compatible with the higher quality 22LR Match ammunition". In short, almost anyone with a factory barrel/chamber will find it difficult to see any chamber-based benefit to choosing ammo based on the manufacturer.

The second is that even with a Lapua or Eley specific chamber it's still necessary to test lots of the make of ammo for which the chamber is designed. The use of an ammo-specific chamber doesn't mean that all lots of ammo produced by a certain ammo maker will shoot equally well. No manufacturer promises that a certain chamber will make lot testing unnecessary if only the chamber specific "brand" of ammo is used. It also doesn't preclude Eley from shooting well in a Lapua-friendly chamber or vice versa.

Invariably, the choice of which chamber to use is for many very serious BR shooters based on which ammo maker has the reputation at a given time for producing the best ammo. There was a time, for example, that Eley regularly produced ammo that shot better than Lapua and so the super serious BR shooters who were looking for a new barrel would usually prefer an Eley-friendly chamber. In more recent years, Lapua ammo has improved its reputation at the expense of Eley and so Lapua-friendly chambers, like the Nevius, are favoured.
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Yep, but all those factory chambers are still going to show preferences for certain ammo. In the case of my two silhouette guns, those are two factory barrels with factory chambers. A wing safety Anschutz 1712 (this is accordingly with Anschutz's older chamber) and a CZ 453 Vermint. That CZ is the one that absolutely will not shoot Lapua ammo. It likes Eley round nose, and surprisingly will also not shoot Eley with the EPS bullet. It will shoot Eley Club and Eley Sport better than it will Tenex. And, yes, I've tried many lots of Tenex through it. Just won't shoot that bullet.
 
_Shorty said:
Yep, but all those factory chambers are still going to show preferences for certain ammo.
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Do you know of any reasons why generic chambers will prefer one make of ammo over another?

Factory rifles have generic chambers, which means they are not made for any particular ammo. Both CIP and SAAMI chambers, which will be found on factory rifles, have 5 degree leades. This is not considered "ideal" for either Lapua or Eley ammo.

While these chambers are by design intended to shoot all ammos, not all individual chambers will be identical, some having unique imperfections or tooling marks. Additionally, some chambers are made shorter than others, but still within CIP or SAAMI specs, may experience harder chambering with some ammos because of bullet geometry or dimensional inconsistency between rounds. At the same time it's also important to remember that bores themselves are also not identical. In general, notwithstanding chamber and barrel differences, rifles can't shoot all ammos equally because all ammo is not equal. Ammo will vary in a number of ways, not only between lots but even within them.

In the case of my two silhouette guns, those are two factory barrels with factory chambers. A wing safety Anschutz 1712 (this is accordingly with Anschutz's older chamber) and a CZ 453 Vermint. That CZ is the one that absolutely will not shoot Lapua ammo. It likes Eley round nose, and surprisingly will also not shoot Eley with the EPS bullet. It will shoot Eley Club and Eley Sport better than it will Tenex. And, yes, I've tried many lots of Tenex through it. Just won't shoot that bullet.
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A sample of two rifles often isn't enough on which to draw or base firm conclusions. So too with a relatively small sample size of different lots of ammo. More specifically, if your CZ doesn't shoot Lapua, it's a not a result of that make of rifle not shooting that make of ammo. Many other shooters have excellent results with Lapua ammo in their CZ rifles. It's worth remembering that not all CZ barrels are the same. While the majority are average for CZ, some will be different, either better or worse than average. Different CZ barrels (and chambers) may not shoot all bullet shapes equally -- but it's not something that can be said with regard to all CZ barrels/chambers. In other words, it's impossible to generalize that CZ rifles don't shoot a particular make of match ammo well.

Reference is made to the "older chamber" on the wing safety Anschutz 1712. Is there any information about a difference between the chambers on the 17xx rifles with wing vs side safety?
 
I think with probably most factory chambers we're dealing with suboptimal machining and cleanup, if any, so there is most definitely some luck of the draw involved. I wasn't trying to generalize at all and say that Lapua will shoot worse in all CZs, nor anything in general about Anschutz, either. Just saying they were both factory chambers that had certain characteristic behaviours. I shoot silhouette with mostly the same couple dozen guys, and have done so for many years. We've all compared notes, and since most of them are also shooting either CZ (different models) or Anschutz 1712 rifles I do have some anecdotal evidence about a decent sampling of both. Anecdotal, none the less.

I thought the newer Anschutz chamber was a bit shorter and tighter than the one in mine. I'll see if I can't check with a buddy and see if any ammo hits the leade in his newer chamber before the rim makes contact, and then try the same round in mine. PTG lists an Anschutz reamer, but I don't know where the dimensions hail from with that reamer. It is relatively short and tight, and only has a half-degree leade. Interesting. Maybe that's what is in their single-shot rifles. I've been trying for about 20 minutes now to find where I read that Anschutz used a new chamber when they switched safeties, but so far I haven't been able to find it again. Current 1712s have 8-groove barrels. I'll have to take a look at mine, as I thought it was six, but I'm not sure.

I wonder if CZ makes their chambers in the hammer forger or if they cut them afterwards.
 
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Ok, so what about the lube hahaha.

So many different chambers are cut. The best is to match your ammo used to the custom barrel/chamber, but then you are stuck using that brand/type ammo. However each reamer and the cut will have a tolerance and would explain why one barrel is better than another from the same manufacturer even, without even taking account the rifling tolerance/ quality.

I will take the Anschutz, the SK rifle match ammo and take 10 shot groups with it, then clean 10 rounds off completely dry, and compare group sizes. ( I wish it had a scope on it )
Then do the same test with my 10/22.
Next test will be to "wet" lube up some CCI mini mag and compare to factory lube in the 10/22. ( as the mini mags shoot decent in it, for a 10/22 that is.)
All tests will be from a cleaned barrel and seasoned to the dry or wet bullet, say 20 rounds through it before the final groups.
Probably will see no change but worth an experiment.
 
Lead hammer said:
Ok, so what about the lube hahaha.
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In case information offered in posts above is unclear, it can be noted that although SK and Lapua ammo have a greasier lube and Eley uses beeswax tallow, there's no evidence that one is better for accuracy than the other. That is to say that a more lubricious lube than Eley's doesn't seem to matter. As for the lubrication on copper plated HV ammo, it's not the lube that makes them inaccurate but rather their purpose and construction.

If you find through experimentation with CCI Mini-Mag and a 10/22 that adding some lubricant of your own disproves your prediction that you "probably will see no change" you may be on to something groundbreaking. Be sure to test using as many rounds as possible to help verify results. Keep records and targets and go for it.
 
The BSA factory was close to Eley.
The BSA Martinis were tested with Eley ammo.
A BSA Martini MkII build in 1953 was tested with ammo long before Eley changed to the flat or nipple bullet and who knows how many lubes changed as well.
My Remington 40XB was rebarreled with an Eley chamber and there is little point to test anything else except for the knowledge of knowing.
If there is any point to testing your own mix versus accepting the major manufacturers years of R & D.
When casting lead bullets for handgun, there were a few using their own mix or some formula shared amongst shooters.
While the match grade ammunition varies in greasiness, the outside temperature around 35 degrees C. turns the lube into oil.
The next time out the rounds are still greasy so no one knows if any lubricant was lost during the heat wave.
 
the one thing notice with shooting cci ammo is their bullets are lubed up with a lot more wax. I notice it when it feeds into the chamber of my 22 rifles. I've been experimenting with wiping as much as that lube off before I load it. seems to help a bit .why they put so much on is like why.
 
GerardSamija said:
The crate of CCI SV I picked up last fall seems a bit more waxy than usual. The other day I had a 10/22 mag freeze up halfway through, the 5th round refusing to rise. I picked at it with a knife tip and it was a bit stubborn, but then jumped up into place. Pulled the round and found it had an uneven lump of wax all over the bullet. Plainly waxed itself to the lower wall of the feed ramp in the magazine. Wouldn't want to lube them more than that, preferably a bit less...
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I've run into this issue with CCI SV as well. One brick of CCI SV was unshootable in my bolt action 22lr's with the amount of excess lube.
All sorts of Fail to Eject issues. IMO, on the shot, the excess, lube instantly melts, then freezes to the chamber walls before you can eject. It ran in the semi-auto blow-back but man was it ever dirty.

Box on left maybe 5-10 rounds before chamber needed cleaning. This box even has gobs of wax in the corners.
Box on right from a different brick no problems.
Io5Lyao.jpg

CCI SV

My now closed LGS used to let me peak at a box in a brick of CCI SV before I bought after that.
 
I think if I find any wax like that I'd hit'em with a heat gun on a towel to remove 'most' of that c---. On a thread somewhere I read that some folks were cleaning with solvent (forget what) then putting in zipbag with Pledge on a rag (?Lemon?). I'll look that up and post later.
Luckily, most of my 22 is not CCI -over 12K rounds.
 
Pledge lube ??

Here's a thread about lubes. Post #12 is the 'Pledge' one. There are other suggestions, butt :rolleyes: I'd question some of them.
http s://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1162829&highlight=pledge
 
Buck1950 said:
Here's a thread about lubes. Post #12 is the 'Pledge' one. There are other suggestions, butt :rolleyes: I'd question some of them.
http s://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1162829&highlight=pledge
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I'd question them too. Some airgun shooters have tried aerosol waxes like Pledge, but few serious airgunners rely on ideas like this for improved accuracy.

Here's a factual post in that thread by a shooter who's shot a lot of different ammos in a variety of accuracy tests with all kinds of ammo (see, for example his "50 at 200" and "50 at 100" threads on RFC). It goes to the heart of the problem.

jaia said:
My rimfire experiments with a variety of lubricants didn't help. :(

Cr*ppy ammo is still cr*ppy ammo no matter how you decorate it. :D
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With any kind of shooting the most reliable avenue to improving results is to use good ammo, not different or exotic lubes. There is no secret or inexpensive way to turn lousy ammo into good. The most important thing to remember is the adage that applies for computers -- garbage in, garbage out.
 
I have almost a brick of .22 ammo from eastern europe dating back over 50 years that I purchased back then form my Cooey.

I recall it was so very slippery unlike the Canuck brand that I recall, and now it is completely dry. Not that I need it but wonder if there is a lubricant that can be applied or is advised? Someone had mentioned to use WD 40. Wonder what is the opinion?

Thanks and keep well.
 
WD40 stands for Water Displacement #40 - not a particularly good lubricant as it evaporates and doesn't leave an appreciable lube/film. Maybe toss them in a ziploc with some oil on a rag?? If they're extremely oxidized you could wipe them off first, but the OD is probably way off SAAMI spec now. Don't shoot for money ;-)
 
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Buck1950 said:
WD40 stands for Water Displacement #40 - not a particularly good lubricant as it evaporates and doesn't leave an appreciable lube/film. Maybe toss them in a ziploc with some oil on a rag?? If they're extremely oxidized you could wipe them off first, but the OD is probably way off SAAMI spec now. Don't shoot for money ;-)
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I knew that WD 40 was not a good lubricant and likely will not do anything useful. Perhaps cooking oil, Pledge and do have PH :)

These .22s bring back great memories and would like to not leave them behind and dispense with them using the Cooey or a lever.
 
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