Lucky day?

hogie

hogie

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I purchased a 91/38 Carcano in 6.5 a few weeks ago. I take apart any firearm I buy and inspect them to make sure there is no visable problems, everything looked good. Did my research for reloading, found out about the different bore diameter for these rifles. I ordered the Hornady bullets made for the Carcano. I have the 7th and 9th editions of the Hornady reloading manuals. They have very specific data for using they bullets for the Carcano. I used there data, got the correct components and made my loads. I used Winchester WLRM primers as per data ( they make a note to only use magnum primers for these bullets ), WIN 760 powder and proper bullets. My starting load was 35.5 grains, min start load is 35.0 .

I went to the range today to try out for the first time. Pulled the trigger and had a very load bang, I knew something wasn't right. My face didn't feel right, did a check and I was bleeding. Looked at the rifle, unable to open the bolt, stock is cracked.

the rifle before


After



The position of the bolt after firing



I had some pitting on the receiver, not the area where the crack is














The extractor broke and I found it on the bench









My face




I was wearing safety glasses so this could have been much worse. I went to get checked at the hospital, nurse and doc both shooters, doc getting into reloading asking questions as to what happened. Both of them will be wearing safety glasses when they shoot.

When I got home I pulled my reloads and checked powder weights, 35.5 within .1 grain. I pulled the rifle apart to inspect and found the receiver had cracked. The crack was not there when I first looked at the rifle. I was able to open the bolt with a hammer. The bolt still works and cycles fine. Nothing in the barrel, bullet went out but didn't hit the target, I may have flinched a little.

Any ideas as what happened? My loads were in spec. No visable signs the rifle was damaged. I know it was over pressure that caused this but not sure what I did wrong? I have never taken a rifle to get checked before firing, short of magnafluxing everything for cracks what else would one look for? The only thing I didn't do was slug the barrel, If it was a tight bore I would think the barrel would have shown damage.

I will be getting a rest and remote firing any rifle I have not fired from now on. A lesson learned, would like to know why it happened but feel very lucky that this could have been much worse.

REMEMBER TO WEAR SAFTEY GLASSES WHEN SHOOTING.

Thanks
Hogie































 
That's an excellent reminder on the importance of eye-pro. Good that you weren't seriously hurt. And too bad about the rifle.
 
Don't bother with a lotto ticket, you used up all your luck for this week. Too bad about the rifle but its a good thing you still have both eyes and no serious damage.
 
This seems familiar - is it a re-post?

Anyways, classic signs of an overload with a fast pistol powder.

Carcanos are strong, and yes, eye protection is a must.
 
I'll be thinking a lot more about glasses too. This stresses the importance of eye protection and I really want to wear them all of a sudden. Sorry it happened but thanks for sharing. Glad you weren't seroiusly injured
 
Wow this post hits a nerve with me hogie!

Yesterday after a month or so I finally shot my first loads for this carcano:

A72946D9-AF6A-444E-9D1A-DF82074146BB-274-0000002C6E2A7E5A.jpg


My ugly mug is still in one piece though! Thank god!! Glad to hear you were wearing eye protection, as like you stated it could have gone way worse.

Carcanos are VERY strong actions, VERY STRONG! But that being said something went horribly wrong with that first shot. I'm no carcano expert, but at first I thought maybe you had a double charged round, it's possible that's what happened if you could fit a double charge in the case.

My thoughts after rolling it around in my head is, did you slug the bore previous to firing the gun??
I ask because carcano barrels are all over the map. Your gun like my m38 may have a .264-.265 bore. Pushing those .268 bullets with their huge bearing surface may have been enough to cause a pressure spike when it was fired. This spike lasted for too long and ruptured the case causing the back end to blow off. Like any other gun it will only hold so much pressure before it let go. Maybe there was a crack in the action which resulted in the failure when normally it would have ruptured the cast but otherwise held together.

I started my loads with .264 bullets yesterday and they shot well, although I also loaded some .268's which shot well but recoil seemed to be worse which told me maybe those were s lightly too big for my bore.

Theres videos on YouTube about this subject, a couple have cases with the back end shattered while others just describe signs of pressure and problems opening the bolt after a .268 bullets is fired.

Anyhow that's my take on it, I'm no carcano expert as these rounds were the first I've loaded and shot out of mine. But I've done lots of research on the topic and I'm lucky to have some fellow gun nutz that filled me in on the bullet diameter subject.

Steve.
 
The pictures indicate a typical high pressure incident. The reason Winchester recommends Magnum primers is that 760 powder is a bit more difficult to ignite, especially in reduced or lighter loads. There are also some cartridges that it is not suited for. One case comes to mind where I was on the range and a guy had loaded lighter loads of Winchester 760 powder in a 7mm Remington Magnum, and was getting serious hang fires with an appreciable delay between the firing pin falling and finally the round going off.

There is also what is known as "secondary explosion effect" and this has been documented in larger cartridges, first noted in the 270 Winchester. Basically what apparently happens is a reduced load will go off inside the cartridge but create a shock wave. This shock wave then comes up against the bullet, and the bullet seems to act as an obstruction thus creating much higher pressure. Some powders, like IMR-4895 can be used with 80% loads, but other powders are not suitable.

With a 35 grain load, I am not sure if you could double charge a Carcano case with 70 grains of Winchester 760. Right now, I have to go to work so I do not have the time to try it but maybe someone else can.

This leaves a cartridge brass case failure as a possibility, with weak brass in the head area, or possibly a headspace problem. As pointed , the Carcano action is quite a strong one. However, I do see that there is "Cal 6.5" stamped on the sight. Military rifles did not have this, so it would seem that this rifle has been looked at, and possibly been rechambered for another cartridge.

Was the Winchester 760 from a NEW can, or did you buy it from another source, such as at a Gun Show? Buying unsealed cans of powder is dangerous. Have you used powder from this particular can of 760 before, or is this the first time? Have you fired your Carcano before, or is this the first time?

Once again, it shows the value of wearing shooting glasses or safety glasses. Thankfully, it did not do a lot more serious damage, especially to your eyes.
.
 
Glad you're okay! Too bad about the gun. Were you wearing just the standard cheap eye protection or one of the more expensive ballistic types such as what the military uses? Seems to have done the job properly.

-Steve
 
All of my components brand new, PRVI brass, new can of powder, new primers, .267 Hornady #2645 bullets. I went with WIN760 powder because of the reloading manual recommendations of this powder giving good results. Everything purchased from stores. Hornady is very specific on the loads for the .267 bullet, only use magnum primers no matter which powder used. They list 6 different powder choices. Not double charge, .5 gr over starting load. Max load 39.6 gr. I was 4 gr under max load. I did some research on this bullet before picking it, never thought of Youtube. There were some stories of overpressure, sticking bolts, flat primers, normal signs. Nothing like what I had.

The Italians originally were going to chamber the 38 series in 7.35. WW2 changed that so the went back to 6.5. That is why it has the 6.5 stamp. There are 38 chambered in 7.35 around.

I didn't slug the barrel, that will be next step. That's the only thing I can think of as to causing the overpressure.

This is big learning experience for me. I will be approaching how I fire rifles for the first time very different. It's easy to get too comfortable around firearms and reloading when nothing bad has happened.

hogie
 
This is the first time I have used WIN760. New can from store, ball powder. I don't have blc2 powder. I would think it should be ok. The first time I've used Winchester powder for reloading.
 
Hogie, this is a very interesting thread, please keep us posted on any findings you may stumble upon.

I don't think you could fit a double charge in that case, at least that wasn't the case with the loads I was doing yesterday. A .267 bullet should be almost perfect for any carcano barrel so now I'm not so sure that my original thoughts regarding bore size vs. a too large bullet are correct. the original size milspec bullet was .266 so .267 should work just fine as well as .268 shouldn't give you any troubles.

I loaded 5 .268 bullets yesterday which were quite large for my bore and fired them with ZERO signs of pressure issues. The only difference was a perception of higher recoil which would make sense due to more pressure from the larger bullet.

Maybe as Buffdog stated it may be a combo of the powder you picked and or bad brass?

Just glad you're ok, and you're very correct sometimes we do get a little to "comfy" shooting these things!
 
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