Luger questions

[smellie]

Navies are ALL Imperial period.

Navies and Artilleries and Carbines were being faked back in toe 1960s; I knew a guy who made a dozen or so.

BTW an original Carbine does NOT have a date, nor does it have a Prussian ownership mark: Serge's DO.

OTOH, the incredibly-rare DO exist; about 5 years ago I had a very minty original COMMERCIAL NAVY in my hands. By the time the Owner pried it out of my fingers, I am afraid it was quite rusted, just from drool. I cry to myself for 20 minutes every night about that one. I believe it found a new home for something like 8 grand.

 

[drm3m]

Tom,

Take what Imperial Luger said very seriously as far as the Navy pistols are concerned.

If you are determined to own a Luger without the 12(6) issue you might want to look for an Artillery Luger (LP08) as Nabs is doing

Generally they are easier to find, probably less costly than a legit Navy pistol, and less 'buggered' with.
Peter at 'lugercollector' sometimes trips over them.

The Artillery Luger also adds a different collecting dimension with the stock, holster and other leather accessories, snail drum magazine and magazine loader.
The snail drum magazine (TM08) is not restricted as to cartridge capacity---- so it does not have to be pinned.

Homework is certainly required in order to recognize legit stuff.

It is so much easier with the P.38 as compared to the P.08 Luger as far as the 12(6) requirement is concerned if you wanted a German WWII pistol ....as Steve suggested.

David

No 12(6) required for a WWII P.38..... more affordable in original collectable (shooting) condition.

 

[drm3m]

smellie,

This should probably not be part of this thread but here it goes.

Your comment;

“But most people look at the Dollar as fixed (although it is not) and, in this light, $1200 might be high TODAY for a very pretty refurb Luger, but it may not be next year.”
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I wonder where the inexpensive refurbed Russian Moisin Nagants (rifles-carbines) and TT-33 pistols will fit into this equation in the years to come.

Will they appreciate over the years as the supply depletes…..I suspect that they will to some degree.

I suspect that will make original pieces even more valuable…wherever they are?

The definition of collectable pieces may change in time????

David

In 2007 I bought into it.....for the price????? I have never done that before.
Would I do it again....I don't think so.

Price paid in Feb 2007; (six years ago)

91/30 rifle $265 plus tax.
Two M44s $175 plus tax.
One M1938 $210 plus tax.

I have no idea what they are worth today?

 

[smellie]

@drm3m:

David, there are people on this forum every day who would cheerfully commit mayhem to get their sweaty little hands on ANY Model 38, much less one in the superb condition you show. That one I am quite certain is "ahead of inflation". Likewise, Russian Model 44s will never again be seen at the price you post.

There are zillions of 91/30s on the go at this time but they all appear to be War Reserve rifles and as such as refurbed; this is entirely at odds with a completely-ORIGINAL specimen which has not been through the rebuild process and also did NOT get run over by a Tiger at Kursk.

I would think your photograph should make most serious collectors of Russian arms salivate more than a bit!

In CONSTANT dollars, I would think this little collection will have appreciated considerably.

As more and more are sold, get to the range, are shot, get bashed-about and (far) too many are brutalised into minimal "sporters" or "tactical" monstrosities, so the value of ORIGINAL specimens will begin to rise.

It's just the old story of the $250-a-dozen unfired Kar 98ks, repeating itself in a new generation and using a less-valuable "dollar".

I wonder what one of those $28 crates of a dozen Carcanos would b worth today.... the ones that Walter H. Craig used to advertise from Selma, Alabama?

"The more things change, the more they are the same."

Just my take on things,

Smellie (George)

 

[drm3m]

smellie (George)

Thanks for your comments.

Once again …probably not the right thread for this stuff.

Following the purchase of the MNs in 2007 I really have not thought about them since then.

I notice various comments on EE from people looking for M38s and M44s.

I really don’t know much about these guns.
I have never shot them nor will I.

My wandering into the world of Mosins was probably driven by the incredibly low cost and the connection that I had with the seller back then.
He was just starting into selling the Russian refurb stuff at that time…..I think.

David

M44 Izhevsk dated 1945----Tula M44 dated 1944.

M38 Izhevsk-dated 1943.

Other purchases back in 2007. Russian TT-33 pistols dated 1942 and 1945.

 

[Imperial luger]

Smellie, your comment " Navies are ALL Imperial period."

This is not correct my learned friend, you will also find naval lugers in the Weimar period--newly manufactured by DWM, shortened LP08's with Imperial naval property marks,reworked LP08's sent to coastal batteries with Naval property markings and also Third Reich period Mauser manufactured P08's starting with K date, G date all the way up to 1942 when the Po8 was replaced with the P-38.

To my knowledge I have not heard or seen a naval P-38 however Star from Spain,The Radom factory,both have bonafide serial ranges for WW#2 German procured pistols that were utilized by WW#2 German Naval forces although very limited numbers.

Yes I must add that their are some collectors that have been bilked out of thousands of hard earned dollars by well known scumbags selling faked wares.

 

[smellie]

@Imperial Luger:

When I speak of a Navy Luger, I mean the classic Naval model (which also was made in tiny numbers as a Commercial) with the Long or the Short Frame, 2-position adjustable rear sight and 6-inch barrel. I was under the impression that all of THESE were made in the Imperial period.

I do not include Naval-OWNED or Naval-USED pistols of standard military type as NAVY LUGERS.

A Naval-MARKED gun, of course, would have to be somewhere in the middle.

I think my absolute DREAM pistol would be a Navy marked to U-18, U-19 or U-20. I have less chance of scoring one than of winning the 6-49!

Can you offer any references, photos, of these later-production Navies?

I have an interest in maritime weaponry, owning a Webley Mark VI, SMLE Mark I*** and a pair of Sparkbrook LLEs with the Naval "N" as well as a commercial LM-II from the old HMS CALYPSO/BRITON and a Ross from the HMS CANADA/ALMIRANTE LATORRE. I regard none of these, however, as purely NAVAL firearms because they are not made to a specific Naval Pattern; they are MILITARY firearms with a Naval Service past.

One point I will admit freely: I don't know everything.... but I am still trying to learn most of it!

Your assistance in this, I think, would be appreciated by all.

 

[drm3m]

This is a 1906 Navy Luger sold by Peter at lugercollector in Canada.
This was part of a thread on Jan Still's Luger Forum following a question regarding a Navy Luger offered for sale on GB.

There are photos of a few really nice Navy Lugers and discussions about what is right and what can be wrong on these pistols.

Also a discussion in another thread regarding a faked Navy Luger holster offered on GB.

Good reading for they that are interested.

Peter's pistol.

Navy 1906
Here are photos of a Navy I sold recently...it came from a 50 Year old collection..in Canada where boosting is very unusual.....no halos on the barrel sn which I believe to be correct on the Early Navy Lugers.

David

This is another Navy pistol shown in that thread that belongs to a collector in the U.S.

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Another one of Peter’s WWII K Date Navy Lugers (P.08)
K Date Navy Luger
Here are photos of a recent find......as brought back from WW2 by a Canadian Veteran.

"K" date is 1934 the very first year of military production for Mauser.

 

[drm3m]

A rare Radom Navy marked WWII pistol .....the Navy (KM) marking is even more rare on the holster.
This was posted on Jan Still's Luger Forum.

David

 

[Nabs]

I am sure you have these beauties in a sealed vault ?

Nice Navy Luger too.

 

[drm3m]

Nabs,

The Navies shown above are not mine.
I would like to own one but I don't.

I have a couple of KM marked Mauser Model 1934s....thats it.

David

 

[Imperial luger]

Smellie

Drm3m has done an admiral job in posting pictures of an 1906 luger with long frame and an Third Reich period K date Po8--thankyou David. I simply do not have the time right now to post photos of my naval collection.

regarding the 1906 Imperial Naval luger posted by David you will note that the Lugers rear grip strap is unit marked to W.W. 1435, Werft Wilhelmshaven, primarily a dock yard weapons armament store, you will not find a Imperial naval luger marked to a specific U Boat or Capital ship, some will be marked to other docks and GOUV- Kiatschow colony. Also to torpedo units and sea batallions.

You are correct that the Naval Luger with two position rear sight was manufactured in the Imperial German time frame starting in 1904 with reworks carried out post 1918, and new manufacture in the Weimar period and Third Reich Period as evident by Davids photos of the KM accepted K date unit marked to Ostsee-O-1987, in the Baltics.

No one knows all and I sure as heck do not possess the Enfield knowledge you have or others on this forum. We all have our niche and mine is German handguns of all kinds with naval lugers first and foremost. My reasoning to include other German procured naval handguns was to hopefully bring attention to other highly collectable pistols.

Some luger collectors lump all Imperial naval Lugers into the P04 designate--the year of acceptance by the Naval arm of the Imperial German Navy. Their is 1904, 1906, 1908 and model 1914 which covers 1916,1917 and some believe 1918 dated short frame lugers. The commercials are in 1906 and 1908. Also a few P08's.

That K Date is a very hard luger to find on any continent let alone country, Canada is fortunate in respect to our vets coming into Germany from the north, we possess some of the finest lugers this world has to offer here in Canada.Shielded from fakes unlike some countries whom enhance naval lugers.

Your comment in reference to your personal collection "I regard none of these, however, as purely NAVAL firearms because they are not made to a specific Naval Pattern; they are MILITARY firearms with a Naval Service past." This is a very good comment in my opinion and one that can only be brought about by a man with extensive military history, if you were to place this line of thought into lugers the only inference would be 1904 and 1906 and some 1908 naval lugers with accompanying board stocks made specifically for the Imperial German navy, all others would be simply procurement.

David-can you post other Naval photos, you may use all of my photos that you can find on other forums.

 

[drm3m]

The pieces shown below belong to the same American collector and were posted on Jan Still's Luger Forum.

A Rare Navy Stock - A Rare Bargain
I've become resigned over the years, to having to pay through the nose for nice Imperial Navy items. They're rare, and there's lots of competition. Imagine my surprise when I chanced upon this very fine Navy stock on a dealer's website, priced so low that it had me lunging for the telephone. How low a price? Lets just say that I would happily have paid three times as much! Although serial numbered, it looks like this stock was never issued, it's correctly C/M marked on both the wood and disc, and has no "GERMANY" export mark. Enjoy the photos.

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2012 Navy Acquisitions
This past year was excellent for me, a lot of great Imperial Navy stuff came my way. I was able to pick up three nice guns (by coincidence, one from each of the three Imperial Navy dockyards, Danzig, Wilhelmshaven and Kiel), a very hard to find Navy stock, a Type 1 holster with early brass zig-zag cleaning rod, a Type 2 pouch and a couple of Navy magazines.
I'd like to acknowledge the forum members from whom I was able to buy some of these Navy things: Ron Wood, Bob Young, Peter Dunster (Canada), and Kai Petter Flesjå (Norway). Thanks guys!

David

 

[drm3m]

The 1906 Navy shown below belongs to another American collector. Sn 1596a. Kiel Naval Depot marking.
The pistol came with three matching magazines which is very rare.

The comment below was from a member on Jan Still's Luger Forum.

"PJ
That is a mind blowing gun! Definitely world class, and three matching magazines is almost unheard of. Your 1906 Navy Luger is a 1st Issue Altered not 2nd Issue."

Crown over M marking on the inside of the holster....most unusual.

David

 

[drm3m]

RIA Auction sale of 1906 Navy Luger rig--Sept 7 2012.

Outstanding Pre-World War I German 1906 DWM Navy Luger with Two Matching Magazines, Navy Holster, Magazine Pouch and Rare Matching Serialized Navy Board Stock.

Sept 7 2012 auction …it sold for $47,500 plus the juice.

Lot #: 3473 Estimated Price: $50,000 - $75,000

Description: This is an example of an exceptionally nice, all original DWM Model 1906 first issue/modified, German Navy Luger rig that is complete with three magazines (two matching) an original matching Navy stock and original Navy holster with straps and double magazine pouch. These were the standard pre-WWI Navy issue Lugers issued to the Imperial German Navy all the way through WWI and even into the Weimar era, albeit almost all were reworked or destroyed under the Versailles treaty after WWI. This series of Navy Luger has the standard grip safety, with the altered second pattern (upper) marked safety with no chamber date. The left side of the barrel extension has the double Crown over "M" proof marks with the smaller Imperial "Crown" firing proof, that is repeated again on the left side of the barrel. The frame and underside of the barrel are both correctly numbered with the full serial number (6668a) along with the bore markings on the barrel. The last two digits of the serial number (68) are correctly stamped on the various small parts. The back grip strap is correctly inscribed "W.W./2208". As noted the magazines that accompany this pistol are the original pre-war versions that have the nickel plated body with the wooden base that has the concentric circles on the ends. The one in the pistol is unnumbered or marked, with the two in the magazine pouch being correctly numbered length wise on the base with the full serial number (6668), along with a single Crown "M" Navy acceptance proof on each base. The two spares are contained in an original, pre-WWI dark brown leather, double pocket magazine pouch, that has a single closure tab on the front with a single brass stud, with a single horizontal loop on the back that is intended for the shoulder/carrying straps for the holster. Also accompanying this Luger is an original Navy model, walnut board shoulder stock with matching attaching iron, numbered "6668a" on top of the iron. The stock itself has a single "Crown/M" navy proof on the side and is still fitted with an original steel stock disc, that is marked on the disc, "W.W./2208". The pouch is marked on the back, "H. MILLER & Co./Offenback a.M.". The holster itself is an original German Navy model that accommodates the six-inch barrel and is marked on the inside "LOW SOHNE/ACT./GES./BERLIN". It has the correct cleaning rod pouch sewn on the side, with the pouch for the take-down tool on the inside of the flap, that contains an original Navy proofed take-down tool. The holster is complete with an original wooden handled, brass cleaning rod with the zigzag end.

Condition: Excellent with 95% plus of the original blue finish overall with slight wear on the edges and high spots overall with some blue loss on the front frame rails, the side plate hump and the left side of the muzzle area. The grips are also in excellent condition with nice sharp original checkering on both sides with light wear across the tops of the checkering. The stock is in very fine condition with a nice even original brown color overall with nice clear sharp markings and proofs, with normal handling marks and light scratches on both sides. The holster, magazine pouch and straps are all in very good to excellent condition with nice color overall, clear distinct markings with nice tight stitching with normal scuffs and light age cracking in some areas. As noted this Luger rig has matching numbers except the one magazine as noted, the firing pin which is unnumbered and the right grip panel which is also unnumbered but correct. An extremely rare example of a very scarce and complete 1906 Navy Luger rig.

David

This rig was discussed at length on Jan Still's Luger Forum.
Supposedly before the auction it was offered for $35,000 then $32,000.....I guess the seller did well with the auction at $47,500 plus fees.