M 38 or why nobody likes counter bored ?

Maybe the barrel just looks new to me and you but had a worn or damaged crown?

Or that particular day at that particular factory they decided to give more work to the guy on the lathe and they made him counter bore *Everything* LOL

Who knows?

I don't know if I believe the bit about muzzle flash. That has more to do with the same charge of powder being consumed in a shorter barrel. With my reloads there is no flash at all, as they are lighter and use a faster burning powder.

I've a .375 Model 94 Winchester carbine and you ought to see the fireball that bugger makes with a hefty shot of ball powder and a hunting bullet!
 
I had a SMLE with a badly worn muzzle, and it would have cost me more than the rifle was worth to have it counter-bored. I'm trying to remember where I read that the 11 degree target crown used today is pretty much an arbitrary figure, but based on that, I bought a 45 degree piloted reamer and used that to great effect. It looks odd, I'll admit, but the shotgun-like groups I first got shrank considerably, and now I only have some vertical stringing to deal with.



OK, the reamer did cost more than I paid for the rifle, but I still have it for the next LE that speaks to me. I was amazed at how little effort it took to cut that metal. It was like carving hard cheese. I'll touch it up with cold blue just before I reassemble it.
 
ciphery said:
Throw a bore snake in your pocket and do a millitary obstickle cource ( crawl on your hands and knees through the dirt, run through a muddy trail, jump into a fox hole and roll around in the dirt, then pull that bore snake out and clean your gun with it, do that every day for a year a report back how your bore looks. The dirt from your pocket , and from the bore acts like abrastive compound. You might as well put valve grinding compound on your patches.
Bear in mind the germans used a CHAIN pull through.
Did you know that you can sharpen a knife off of dirty trousers if you strop the edge on your leg which IS hardened steel while a rifle barrel is NOT hardened?
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LOL really ?? your too funny .. First off there are many places to keep a pull through clean in combat .. Im not sure about you but im not in combat or on the eastern front , are you? Yes a proper cleaning rod, brush and jag are a far better way to clean a bore . Boresnakes dont really clean or remove copper fouling , they are for preserving bores between shooting occasions or at the end of the hunting day to remove debris, carbon or moisture NOT FOR CLEANING .. If you do a full cleaning with a rod , brush , jag after every time you shoot or take the gun outdoors you will wear out a bore faster than anything ITS NOT NEEDED only a full rod cleaning is needed when fouling builds up like after hundreds rounds, The boresnake is the best thing to use between full cleanings and WILL NOT WEAR OUT A CROWN .. Any half decent metal will not get worn down by cloth ! Sure not gona wear it out any faster than a piece of copper and lead going mach 3 over it .. Try to take any steel edge and create any visible wear with a string , even a cheap utility knife , good luck buddy.. Btw Just tried for 20 min to sharpen a stainless steel knife on some work jeans, knife is still dull and my wrist hurts ..
 
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boss351cleveland said:
LOL really ?? your too funny .. First off there are many places to keep a pull through clean in combat .. Im not sure about you but im not in combat or on the eastern front , are you? A proper cleaning rod, brush and jag are a far better way to clean a bore , yes . Boresnakes dont really clean or remove copper fouling , they are for preserving bores between shooting occasions or at the end of the hunting day to remove debris or moisture NOT FOR CLEANING .. If you do a full cleaning with a rod , brush , jag after every time you shoot or take the gun outdoors you will wear out a bore faster than anything ITS NOT NEEDED only a full rod cleaning is needed when fouling builds up like after hundreds rounds, The boresnake is the best thing to use between full cleanings and WILL NOT WEAR OUT A CROWN .. Any half decent metal will not get worn down by cloth ! not gona wear it out any faster than a piece of copper and lead going mach 3 over it .. Try to take any steel edge and wear it down with a string , even a cheap utility knife , good luck buddy..
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Guess you have never seen a razor strop in your life time.
Or seen what happens to guides in a fishing rod when you run fire line over them.
Ever see a worn recoil guid on a lawn mower,chain saw,snow machine? Dirt + nylon cord + friction= wear

Pull throughs are s**t on barrels
 
ciphery said:
Guess you have never seen a razor strop in your life time.
Or seen what happens to guides in a fishing rod when you run fire line over them.
Ever see a worn recoil guid on a lawn mower,chain saw,snow machine? Dirt + nylon cord + friction= wear

Pull throughs are s**t on barrels
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Please explain how a fabric pull through can wear out a barrel faster than , lead /copper bullet going 2500fps, brass brush , cleaning rod ect .. Yes anything that contacts metal will wear it to a degree but the harder the thing thats contacting it the more wear is created and heat has a huge factor too . How is fabric harder than copper ? how can a fabric pull through create heat ? Firing one round will create 10 times the wear as one pass through with a Boresnake ......
 
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Its more so if you pull it out with it putting pressure on one side of the crown, believe me but I have a No.4 that has an oval shaped crown due to careless use of a pull through, you'd be surprised.
 
boss351cleveland said:
Please explain how a fabric pull through can wear out a barrel faster than , lead /copper bullet going 2500fps, brass brush , cleaning rod ect .. Yes anything that contacts metal will wear it to a degree but the harder the thing thats contacting it the more wear is created and heat has a huge factor too . How is fabric harder than copper ? how can fabric create heat ? Firing one round will create 10 times the wear as one pass through with a Boresnake ......
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lol I don't know how many times I've explained the same to people. Every time you pull the trigger, a steel core full metal jacket projectile being pushed through the bore under massive pressure and incredible violent heat and speed over and over and over.

But yeah those brass brushes/cloth bore brushes and cleaning patches are sure going to "do a number on those barrels"......

Obviously if you blindfold yourself and clean your bore with a sledge hammer and a screwdriver or something retarded like that you're going to cause damage to your crown and bore, but anyone who is mildly not retarded with a bore brush and patches isn't going to do anywhere near the wear and damage as simply firing your gun.....unbelievable.......
 
D-BOMB said:
Its more so if you pull it out with it putting pressure on one side of the crown, believe me but I have a No.4 that has an oval shaped crown due to careless use of a pull through, you'd be surprised.
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^^^ THIS! ^^^

I used to be a doubter too....

But, when that pull through is full of sand, carbon, and bits of steel/copper jacket, it acts like emory cloth on the crown...

Apparently the British had such a problem with poor cleaning techniques ruining barrel crowns, that they funded a study on the matter...

Some CGNer's are more versed in the subject than I. Paging Smellie... ;)
 
Cord wear was a recognized problem by the British Army.

The British military used two different marks to indicate cord wear on their rifles, one if the damage was found by the inspection dept and another one if marked by AOD. Both marks are basically the letter W with a star above it. Both marks were placed on the barrel knox form.

Pull throughs will destroy the crown on a rifle if not pulled straight out. If you want to use one, fine, but be careful.
 
stevebc said:
I had a SMLE with a badly worn muzzle, and it would have cost me more than the rifle was worth to have it counter-bored. I'm trying to remember where I read that the 11 degree target crown used today is pretty much an arbitrary figure, but based on that, I bought a 45 degree piloted reamer and used that to great effect. It looks odd, I'll admit, but the shotgun-like groups I first got shrank considerably, and now I only have some vertical stringing to deal with.

The vertical stringing is caused by inconsistent velocities in your loads. Careful load development and testing over the chronograph will help bigtime.:)
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Desert_Fox said:
^^^ THIS! ^^^

I used to be a doubter too....

But, when that pull through is full of sand, carbon, and bits of steel/copper jacket, it acts like emory cloth on the crown...

Apparently the British had such a problem with poor cleaning techniques ruining barrel crowns, that they funded a study on the matter...

Some CGNer's are more versed in the subject than I. Paging Smellie... ;)
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Like i said before pull throughs like boresnakes should not be a replacement for proper cleaning but just to preserve the bore and remove debris and moisture before putting away the rifle , you should only do a full cleaning with a rod as little as possible , only when fouling builds up and affects accuracy , over cleaning with rods does more damage to bores than anything, you cant compare the awful ww2 era pull throughs to a modern bore snake. fact is improper sloppy cleaning practices with rods or dirty pull throughs are both not good
 
I thought the discussion was about vintage cleaning methods on vintage rifles, not modern ones vs vintage steel rods...


FWIW I use a patch wet with ballistol after the range, for preservation and to soften the fouling, then put it away and dry patch before shooting again.

And I shoot cast, just because I don't like the idea of nasty surplus bullets wearing the bore out.
 
Travis Bickle said:
lol I don't know how many times I've explained the same to people. Every time you pull the trigger, a steel core full metal jacket projectile being pushed through the bore under massive pressure and incredible violent heat and speed over and over and over.

But yeah those brass brushes/cloth bore brushes and cleaning patches are sure going to "do a number on those barrels"......

Obviously if you blindfold yourself and clean your bore with a sledge hammer and a screwdriver or something retarded like that you're going to cause damage to your crown and bore, but anyone who is mildly not retarded with a bore brush and patches isn't going to do anywhere near the wear and damage as simply firing your gun.....unbelievable.......
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The big difference with the bullet is that remain centered in the bore. Using a pull thru without being carefull to keep it centered and rubbing on 1 side will wear the crown over time. You would be surprised to see the wear marks on the rope guide on a hayballer. The rope, particulary nylon one wear the guide, they even wear ceramic guide too. The comparison may seems somewhat strange to some but pulling a pull thru at angle from a rifle barrel will definitely wear the crown, Do it wrong regulary and wont take manys years to wear the crown. Hard to believe but its true. SKS and Mosin have bore guide to prevent the cleaning rod from damaging the crown but they must be used and they are better than any pull thru to clean a barrel.

Joce
 
svt1940 said:
The big difference with the bullet is that remain centered in the bore. Using a pull thru without being carefull to keep it centered and rubbing on 1 side will wear the crown over time. You would be surprised to see the wear marks on the rope guide on a hayballer. The rope, particulary nylon one wear the guide, they even wear ceramic guide too. The comparison may seems somewhat strange to some but pulling a pull thru at angle from a rifle barrel will definitely wear the crown, Do it wrong regulary and wont take manys years to wear the crown. Hard to believe but its true. SKS and Mosin have bore guide to prevent the cleaning rod from damaging the crown but they must be used and they are better than any pull thru to clean a barrel.

Joce
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Bingo!
Ye just saved me some typin' time. Oh yeah.....Bore snakes blow.:)
 
boss351cleveland said:
Please explain how a fabric pull through can wear out a barrel faster than , lead /copper bullet going 2500fps, brass brush , cleaning rod ect .. Yes anything that contacts metal will wear it to a degree but the harder the thing thats contacting it the more wear is created and heat has a huge factor too . How is fabric harder than copper ? how can a fabric pull through create heat ? Firing one round will create 10 times the wear as one pass through with a Boresnake ......
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Its not JUST the fabric, its that the fabric is a magnet for grit.
The coefficient of friction is not soley based on how hard something is either. For instance a 3M scotchbrite pad is made from plastic, yet it is an abrasive used for rust and scale removal. The plastic is not as hard as steel but none the less it scratches away the surface of a piece of metal even as it sacrafices its own surface.
A steel blade is not as hard as a stick of celery either but none the less the knife gets dull after you cut up a bunch doesn't it? If what you said were true than a knife would never dull as long as you used it on a wooden cutting board and never tried cutting anything as hard or harder than the blade.

The same instences apply to bore snakes. From the first time they are used they start picking up dirt. As they are pulled time and time again through a dirty bore, they pick up more and more grit. Their storage and care not to let them touch any dirt must also be taken into account. If you tuck that bore snake into a pocket with a bit of sand or other grit hidden in the corner or if the end touches the ground while you are fishing the draw end through the barrel, even just drop it by accident, you might just as well throw valve grinding compound on your patches too.

The aluminum ball chain issued German troops were particularly bad with getting dirt imbeded into the surface of the balls and lurking inside the hollow balls looking to find its way out. Add a bit of oil to them and now they really are abrasive magnets.
 
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ciphery said:
Its not JUST the fabric, its that the fabric is a magnet for grit.
The coefficient of friction is not soley based on how hard something is either. For instance a 3M scotchbrite pad is made from plastic, yet it is an abrasive used for rust and scale removal. The plastic is not as hard as steel but none the less it scratches away the surface of a piece of metal even as it sacrafices its own surface.
A steel blade is not as hard as a stick of celery either but none the less the knife gets dull after you cut up a bunch doesn't it? If what you said were true than a knife would never dull as long as you used it on a wooden cutting board and never tried cutting anything as hard or harder than the blade.

The same instences apply to bore snakes. From the first time they are used they start picking up dirt. As they are pulled time and time again through a dirty bore, they pick up more and more grit. Their storage and care not to let them touch any dirt must also be taken into account. If you tuck that bore snake into a pocket with a bit of sand or other grit hidden in the corner or if the end touches the ground while you are fishing the draw end through the barrel, even just drop it by accident, you might just as well throw valve grinding compound on your patches too.

The aluminum ball chain issued German troops were particularly bad with getting dirt imbeded into the surface of the balls and lurking inside the hollow balls looking to find its way out. Add a bit of oil to them and now they really are abrasive magnets.
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Please go to a precision or bench rest shooting match and you will see many people using boresnakes after the match , including high level shooters and champions , people that care about the razors edge of accuracy for their livelihood .And quit talking about crappy ww2 era pull throughs , yes they are crap , just like steel non coated cleaning rods are crap.. How many shooting matches have you shot lately ?
 
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