M-851 Remington + Pic Added

[Rman]

I don't know. I'm more used to model numbers being a bit more definitive, while part numbers appear differently they are using the same model number on different tools. Having a model number for a particular tool would require a separate way to further identify which tool it is, which might be their system. It may be just a small sequence of their alpha numeric system of cataloging.

Are they using the same model number for the group of tools that are used to assemble the shotguns identified? That would explain the model number designation, along with the part number.
"Having a model number for a particular tool would require a separate way to further identify which tool it is, which might be their system" That would be done using the part number.

R.

 

[Lodi]

Are they using the same model number for the group of tools that are used to assemble the shotguns identified?

That was my first thought, and all the tools designated that way are tools that would be used for that model. Until you get to the Model 851, and a Model 851 was never manufactured.

That would explain the model number designation, along with the part number.
"Having a model number for a particular tool would require a separate way to further identify which tool it is, which might be their system" That would be done using the part number.

R.

Agreed. But it would be harder to link a particular tool to a particular firearm that way. But in house that may be non-issue.

 

[Rman]

"That was my first thought, and all the tools designated that way are tools that would be used for that model. Until you get to the Model 851, and a Model 851 was never manufactured."

Except that the 851 designation refers to the group of tools required to assemble a group of shotguns. Such as: "the 851 group of tools is required to assemble a Model 870 shotgun"

"Agreed. But it would be harder to link a particular tool to a particular firearm that way. But in house that may be non-issue."
This would be no different that linking any other part number to any other model number?

R.

 

[guntech]

I have been gunsmithing since 1967 and in the early 70's was doing warranty work for Remington. Over the years I worked on a lot of shotguns 11-48's, 58's, 31's, 1100's, 870's ... and never ever saw a Model 851 nor any reference to a model 851 ...

 

[Lodi]

Again, maybe. And then the 870 group of tools would be used to assemble a different model shotgun? or both 851 and 870 group of tools are required to assemble the same model? This is the rabbit hole stuff I was running into. Everything falls into line and makes sense until the number 851 pops up. But I only have a dozen or so drawings, with more drawings the stuff that stands out as odd might make sense.

Agreed, part numbers just become part numbers. The part numbers would be used as tools are manufactured, but an employee could just grab a new tool from a known bin as needed. In house the tools would reside on the users bench all the time, then only replaced as the need arose.

 

[Rman]

"And then the 870 group of tools would be used to assemble a different model shotgun?"
More like parts of the 851 group of tools was used to assemble multiple shotguns.
"But I only have a dozen or so drawings"
Are these drawing also for assembly tools? Common parts?

R.

 

[Lodi]

Are these drawing also for assembly tools? Common parts?R.

Yes, assembly and disassembly, and I would put some of them into the service category, such as the staking tools. Common parts?, the parts that the tools would be used on are specific to a model of firearm and not a general purpose tool such as a pin punch or bench block.

After counting I need to up the number of drawings to 26. In the box for 'Model' are the numbers 721, 740, 742, 760, 550, 552, 572, 58, 870, and 1100 and of course 851. The tools indicated in the drawings all appear to be consistent with tools used for a firearm model with the same 'Model' number, except the 851.

 

[Rman]

"The tools indicated in the drawings all appear to be consistent with tools used for a firearm model with the same 'Model' number, except the 851."

This is most likely because the 851 tool was used to assemble multiple models of firearms that shared the same latch assembly. The other drawings would indicate this as well, as those tools are for a specific model of firearm, as opposed to multiple models. That is what naming, drafting, and manufacturing convention tells us.
There would have to be significantly more compelling information to show that there ever was a Model 851 firearm, experimental, in development, or otherwise, than one tool drawing showing an application across different models of existing guns.
If you still believe that there was a Model 851 firearm of any description, then contact the folks at the The Remington Society of America. They will be the most accurate source of information on this, and may be very interested in the drawings you have.

R.

 

[Lodi]

This is most likely because the 851 tool was used to assemble multiple models of firearms that shared the same latch assembly. That is what naming, drafting, and manufacturing convention tells us.

The multiple models of firearms is an idea, just need to look at all the models that used that part in that period of time.

The technical drawing and drafting procedure is an area I don't have experience in, which is another reason for posting. Someone with knowledge in this area would know the theory of documentation.

 

[Rman]

"Someone with knowledge in this area would know the theory of documentation."
Someone just did, and let you know what his thoughts were, according to recognized standards, conventions, and experience.
R.

 

[kjohn]

Found it!!

 

[Lodi]

"Someone with knowledge in this area would know the theory of documentation."
Someone just did, and let you know what his thoughts were, according to recognized standards, conventions, and experience.
R.

Thank you. I was unaware the two were connected, as opposed to guesses.

 

[Lodi]

Found it!!

Duuude, so close! But c'mon, where's the cord? 1949, circa 1949, get with the program kjohn!

 

[3macs1]

3macs1, let go of the bone ......... pleaaaaase ..... !!!

Sometimes, you have to know when to stop posting in a thread .....

I am trying to take my own advice and not read but this has been such a ridiculous thread to us old remington people it is painful
So one more I promise

Did the OP with his vast 30 year bench experience with working on remingtons and research on these drawings every think this for even one minute

OK it is a box on a drawing that says model a very small box where a model is normaly entered
This tool is clearly one made to be used on all models with the latch(s) so could maybe just maybe to get the data needed in that small box they did M851

Meaning
M for model
8 for all 8 prefix models like 870 and 878
5 for all 5 like 58
1 for all 1 like 1148 1100

Thus M851 in box covering them all if not name one shotgun in this era that would be missing with a feed latch

no more comments I promise

Take care

 

[struff55]

There have been some ridiculous posts on the gun nutz site this by far wins hands down .

 

[0faustus0]

There have been some ridiculous posts on the gun nutz site this by far wins hands down .

Yups ...

 

[the spank]

There have been some ridiculous posts on the gun nutz site this by far wins hands down .

Amen!!

 

[Lodi]

I have never heard of this model, though the dates kinda coincide with the 48 Mohawk and 11-48's. I'm guessing there was a change in the model designation, but the 851 was kept in the 1961 redraw.

Has anyone information on a Model 851?

I've been flipping thru a book for an entirely different thread and have found additional info. The book, by Eugene Myszkowski, is titled Remington Autoloading & Pump-Action Rifles
A History of the centerfire Models 760, 740, 742, 7400 & 7600. The passage below is from the chapter discussing the beginning and history of these autoloaders.

"Crittendon of Du Pont had begun work on May 20, 1947 on entirely new autoloader and pump action rifle designs. They were given the engineering designations Model 742 and Model 762 on October 9, 1947. [Note: The use of the same model numbers as previous designs were discussed in committee.]
These new designs were based on the size and appearance of the 28 and .410 gauge Model 851, later called the Model 11-48, shotgun receiver. The Model 851/11-48 shotgun, which had a recoiling barrel, was familiar to Crittendon as he, William Gail Jr., Ellis Hailston and C.R. Johnson were the original design team members. The rifle receiver's major changes were a stationary barrel, which locks into the receiver by means of a barrel extension and a multiple lug bolt. It was estimated that 35 to 40 of the 80 parts found in the Model 851/11-48 shotgun would, with minimal revision, be common to a rifle.."