M+M M10x FRT 153447

[Ar180shooter]

As has already been discussed ad nauseum, the M10X offers the following key advantages over existing, older 7.62x39mm rifle/carbine designs:

- Monolithic top rail for unlimited optics mounting options,

- MLOC modular side and bottom handguard rails,

- Standard North American muzzle thread with factory brake,

- Ambidextrous controls, including reversible cocking handle,

- Magpul furniture for optimized ergonomics, including buttstock cheek risers for optics mounting,

- Use of modern materials (steel receiver, extruded aluminum monolithic receiver shell, polymer furniture) and finishes (nitrited steel including bore, and anodized aluminum,

- Simple disassembly into major components without tools,

- Improved AK fire control group with enhanced trigger and AR style change lever,

- Accepts all known variants of 7.62x39mm AK magazines with stabilizing magazine release lever,

-Straight line design for enhanced recoil and muzzle-rise reduction.

There are no doubt a few features that I've missed just off the top of my head, but I'm sure the message ought to be clear enough. The M10X offers substantial improvements over its 7.62x39mm predecessors in just about every facet of its design, fabrication and performance. If that isn't enough to float yer boat then the M10X probably isn't for you. Simple, really.

I too am rather impressed with the design and execution of the rifle. It has many similarities to the Sig 55X series of rifles (which I adore) and has some improvements over it. If it's below $2000, I might give it a chance providing service is good and replacement parts are available. I don't entirely blame M+M for wanting to subsidize U.S. sales with higher prices here, but they need to keep it within reason or they won't sell very many rifles...

 

[jiffx2781]

I too am rather impressed with the design and execution of the rifle. It has many similarities to the Sig 55X series of rifles (which I adore) and has some improvements over it. If it's below $2000, I might give it a chance providing service is good and replacement parts are available. I don't entirely blame M+M for wanting to subsidize U.S. sales with higher prices here, but they need to keep it within reason or they won't sell very many rifles...

Apparently you're OK with taking it up the a$$ and enjoying it.

I can see the pre-order price left slim profit margins but all the people who are offering to willingly throw another $500 at them for no good reason need to give their head a shake.

A fool and his money are soon parted. And this place is full of them.

 

[drifter dave]

I did the math, I predict a new price of $1950.

 

[Ar180shooter]

Apparently you're OK with taking it up the a$$ and enjoying it.

I can see the pre-order price left slim profit margins but all the people who are offering to willingly throw another $500 at them for no good reason need to give their head a shake.

A fool and his money are soon parted. And this place is full of them.

It's easy to make ignorant comments like that when you know very little.

A business exists to make money. The highly competitive U.S. gun market relegated a novel design like the M10X to a niche firearm with very little profit margin. Having designed an AK-ish gun that isn't an AK variant and is therefore available in Canada means that they have very limited competition, with the only real comparable rifles being the VZ-58. I'd like to have the rifle for as cheap as possible, but I realize that there are other factors to consider, and businesses need to make money. That is why I am different to ignorant a$$hats like you. If you're investing millions of dollars in to founding and operating a small business, you want to make a decent paycheck at the end of the day, and I can't blame a business like M+M or Canadian firearm distributors and retailers for wanting a reasonable return on their investment. When you develop and manufacture a better and cheaper NR AK alternative send me a PM, otherwise STFU.

 

[MCGA]

I did the math, I predict a new price of $1950.

 

[norlandgeese]

I did the math, I predict a new price of $1950.

For the public good, predict lower as opposed to predict what your math speculates LOL.

After seeing a few of these new gun product introductions drama, I believe many small firearms biz owners should get some professional marketing/procurement and/or professional project management consultation. Unfortunately small businesses often don't heed that kind of advice.

 

[greentips]

I too am rather impressed with the design and execution of the rifle. It has many similarities to the Sig 55X series of rifles (which I adore) and has some improvements over it. If it's below $2000, I might give it a chance providing service is good and replacement parts are available. I don't entirely blame M+M for wanting to subsidize U.S. sales with higher prices here, but they need to keep it within reason or they won't sell very many rifles...

I too am rather impressed with the design and execution of the rifle. It has many similarities to the Sig 55X series of rifles (which I adore) and has some improvements over it. If it's below $2000, I might give it a chance providing service is good and replacement parts are available. I don't entirely blame M+M for wanting to subsidize U.S. sales with higher prices here, but they need to keep it within reason or they won't sell very many rifles...

The receiver design is a modernized updated 55X, but the overall "architecture" is convoluted.

It is a direct transplant of SG55X operating ( gas and locking ) system. Everything looks like a direct copy. What they do was throwing away the outdated(expensive) way of making receiver out of heavy sheet steel and welding the locking block on it. Instead, they fix the steel locking block and trunnion to an aluminium extrusion tube. This is basic idea of how all the current designs are executed, from SCAR to MCX, whether the steel trunnion or locking block is affixed by two cross bolts or other more permanent method. Actually, the Bushmaster M17 was already using the concept back in the 80's.

Instead of making a new shorter trigger housing with bolt catch and , which SIG/Swiss arms did when re-developing the entire AK concept back in the 60/70's, the M10 sticks with the AK receiver blank to use as the trigger housing and the basic design of AK trigger group. It is probably conceived to be "cheaper" for them to use AK blanks without making a new lower trigger housing, but the entire upper design is now driven by the desire to use an AK receiver blank as the trigger housing. To make that work it turns into a rather awkward non-push pin receiver / trigger housing arrangement ( the AK blank is probably too thin for push pins, so the cheapest way is to make it permanently attached and only crack opens) . So it is like the wagon is pushing the horse here, they built a new rifle on an AK receiver blank that was designed to work as a receiver, but now it is only used as trigger housing. So what is the point of sticking with a rather crappy AK like trigger housing? If you go that far may as well do what Sig/swiss arms did in the 60/70's, design and make a more ergonomic trigger housing!

I think it appeals to people who want the "AK" look and the mediocre "AK ergonomics", in addition to the NR status. It is also a bit of a forbidden fruit for Canadians because we cannot own AK. But putting the NR status aside, which is the major appeal in the Canadian market, the philosophy behind the system is quite convoluted. The rifle is redesigned/rebuilt around the most antiquated part of AK, the square box stamped metal AK receiver, just because! The end product doesn't even need the AK receiver, other than for the reasons of availability of mass produced aK blanks and the "look"!

In the practical world, I don't think the gun buying public really cares about my points - as long as the rifle works! This rifle will be successful in Canada because it nicely fit into the category that shoots 7.62 Russian in a price category just next up to VZ58 and Type 81. The next price bracket up will be XCR and potentially Bren 806 some years down the road. So it does have a very nice niche here in Canada. It fits nicely in the 1500 to 2000 bracket that seems to be empty right now.

 

[drifter dave]

No magic involved.
Take the US retail, convert it, add $100 for import.
In reality it will probably be more.

 

[norlandgeese]

So from a technical stand point, you would've preferred they used a different receiver design with BHO etc? That would make sense to me.
Curious though, this was designed first for the US market and they don't suffer from the same AK forbidden fruit situation.
What is their primary intended market/application?

The receiver design is a modernized updated 55X, but the overall "architecture" is convoluted.

It is a direct transplant of SG55X operating ( gas and locking ) system. Everything looks like a direct copy. What they do was throwing away the outdated(expensive) way of making receiver out of heavy sheet steel and welding the locking block on it. Instead, they fix the steel locking block and trunnion to an aluminium extrusion tube. This is basic idea of how all the current designs are executed, from SCAR to MCX, whether the steel trunnion or locking block is affixed by two cross bolts or other more permanent method. Actually, the Bushmaster M17 was already using the concept back in the 80's.

Instead of making a new shorter trigger housing with bolt catch and , which SIG/Swiss arms did when re-developing the entire AK concept back in the 60/70's, the M10 sticks with the AK receiver blank to use as the trigger housing and the basic design of AK trigger group. It is probably conceived to be "cheaper" for them to use AK blanks without making a new lower trigger housing, but the entire upper design is now driven by the desire to use an AK receiver blank as the trigger housing. To make that work it turns into a rather awkward non-push pin receiver / trigger housing arrangement ( the AK blank is probably too thin for push pins, so the cheapest way is to make it permanently attached and only crack opens) . So it is like the wagon is pushing the horse here, they built a new rifle on an AK receiver blank that was designed to work as a receiver, but now it is only used as trigger housing. So what is the point of sticking with a rather crappy AK like trigger housing? If you go that far may as well do what Sig/swiss arms did in the 60/70's, design and make a more ergonomic trigger housing!

I think it appeals to people who want the "AK" look and the mediocre "AK ergonomics", in addition to the NR status. It is also a bit of a forbidden fruit for Canadians because we cannot own AK. But putting the NR status aside, which is the major appeal in the Canadian market, the philosophy behind the system is quite convoluted. The rifle is redesigned/rebuilt around the most antiquated part of AK, the square box stamped metal AK receiver, just because! The end product doesn't even need the AK receiver, other than for the reasons of availability of mass produced aK blanks and the "look"!

In the practical world, I don't think the gun buying public really cares about my points - as long as the rifle works! This rifle will be successful in Canada because it nicely fit into the category that shoots 7.62 Russian in a price category just next up to VZ58 and Type 81. The next price bracket up will be XCR and potentially Bren 806 some years down the road. So it does have a very nice niche here in Canada. It fits nicely in the 1500 to 2000 bracket that seems to be empty right now.

 

[Ar180shooter]

The receiver design is a modernized updated 55X, but the overall "architecture" is convoluted.

It is a direct transplant of SG55X operating ( gas and locking ) system. Everything looks like a direct copy. What they do was throwing away the outdated(expensive) way of making receiver out of heavy sheet steel and welding the locking block on it. Instead, they fix the steel locking block and trunnion to an aluminium extrusion tube. This is basic idea of how all the current designs are executed, from SCAR to MCX, whether the steel trunnion or locking block is affixed by two cross bolts or other more permanent method. Actually, the Bushmaster M17 was already using the concept back in the 80's.

Instead of making a new shorter trigger housing with bolt catch and , which SIG/Swiss arms did when re-developing the entire AK concept back in the 60/70's, the M10 sticks with the AK receiver blank to use as the trigger housing and the basic design of AK trigger group. It is probably conceived to be "cheaper" for them to use AK blanks without making a new lower trigger housing, but the entire upper design is now driven by the desire to use an AK receiver blank as the trigger housing. To make that work it turns into a rather awkward non-push pin receiver / trigger housing arrangement ( the AK blank is probably too thin for push pins, so the cheapest way is to make it permanently attached and only crack opens) . So it is like the wagon is pushing the horse here, they built a new rifle on an AK receiver blank that was designed to work as a receiver, but now it is only used as trigger housing. So what is the point of sticking with a rather crappy AK like trigger housing? If you go that far may as well do what Sig/swiss arms did in the 60/70's, design and make a more ergonomic trigger housing!

I think it appeals to people who want the "AK" look and the mediocre "AK ergonomics", in addition to the NR status. It is also a bit of a forbidden fruit for Canadians because we cannot own AK. But putting the NR status aside, which is the major appeal in the Canadian market, the philosophy behind the system is quite convoluted. The rifle is redesigned/rebuilt around the most antiquated part of AK, the square box stamped metal AK receiver, just because! The end product doesn't even need the AK receiver, other than for the reasons of availability of mass produced aK blanks and the "look"!

In the practical world, I don't think the gun buying public really cares about my points - as long as the rifle works! This rifle will be successful in Canada because it nicely fit into the category that shoots 7.62 Russian in a price category just next up to VZ58 and Type 81. The next price bracket up will be XCR and potentially Bren 806 some years down the road. So it does have a very nice niche here in Canada. It fits nicely in the 1500 to 2000 bracket that seems to be empty right now.

Interesting criticism, admittedly I have not looked too deeply in to the design, and the improvements I was mentioning were the free floated front rail and ambidextrous/reversible charging handle. I had noticed the striking similarity of the bolt carrier and piston design, but not having looked in to the design extensively, I didn't want to make the claim that it was a direct copy of the 55X system. Too bad they didn't redesign the lower in order to not limit the design of the rest of the rifle to fit in to an old mold, although a completely new design of the lower would likely have increased costs, which would further decrease the competitiveness of the price point. While I understand the criticisms regarding the shortcomings of the design, if well constructed it will still perform acceptably for the intended purpose, despite the eccentricities of the receiver system.

If it does stay in the $1500-$2000 price bracket, I do agree that it will fit an unfilled niche.

 

[greentips]

So from a technical stand point, you would've preferred they used a different receiver design with BHO etc? That would make sense to me.
Curious though, this was designed first for the US market and they don't suffer from the same AK forbidden fruit situation.
What is their primary intended market/application?

There are gazillions of firearms makers in the US for the consumer market. Everyone is trying to make something "different". Go to Shot Show and you will understand. It doesn't need to make sense, as long as it is something different it will have a chance in the market if you market it well enough.

I think M&M was lucky with this, they hit the jack pot because of our rather stupid gun laws. The architecture doesn't makes sense, but our gun laws don't either! It turns out that you need to do something that doesn't make sense to get around laws that do not make sense. Bingo!

2 negatives and you end up with a positive! At the end of the day, regardless of the design concept, most people will be quite happen as long as it shoots. It scratches the "AK" itch for a lot of folks.

 

[Ar180shooter]

There are gazillions of firearms makers in the US for the consumer market. Everyone is trying to make something "different". Go to Shot Show and you will understand. It doesn't need to make sense, as long as it is something different it will have a chance in the market if you market it well enough.

I think M&M was lucky with this, they hit the jack pot because of our rather stupid gun laws. The architecture doesn't makes sense, but our gun laws don't either! Match in Heaven!

2 negatives and you end up with a positive!

Very true, I highly doubt they intended this for the Canadian market, they just sort of stumbled in to it, much like RA when they were developing the XCR.

 

[jiffx2781]

It's easy to make ignorant comments like that when you know very little.

A business exists to make money. The highly competitive U.S. gun market relegated a novel design like the M10X to a niche firearm with very little profit margin. Having designed an AK-ish gun that isn't an AK variant and is therefore available in Canada means that they have very limited competition, with the only real comparable rifles being the VZ-58. I'd like to have the rifle for as cheap as possible, but I realize that there are other factors to consider, and businesses need to make money. That is why I am different to ignorant a$$hats like you. If you're investing millions of dollars in to founding and operating a small business, you want to make a decent paycheck at the end of the day, and I can't blame a business like M+M or Canadian firearm distributors and retailers for wanting a reasonable return on their investment. When you develop and manufacture a better and cheaper NR AK alternative send me a PM, otherwise STFU.

I'm not opposed to a business profiting from their investment.

I am however opposed to ignorant a$$hat Canadians who are gleefully supporting an openly confessed "subsidize the Americans at the expense of desperate firearms deprived Canadians" scheme.

A$$hats like you and many others here who are ignorantly stating much higher prices they are willing to pay are the reason we get taken advantage of which is clearly what is happening here. Dig you're head out of the sand.

Are you so gullible that you honestly believe they have no msrp pricing for us yet? They know exactly what this costs to build, ship, and export. They just decided to take a little extra time to hear from people like you thats all.

Everyone here stating specific higher prices they are willing to pay should just stfu and see where M+M decide to take this. It may not go as high as we think but if people like you keep proclaiming their willingness to throw extra money at them I don't really blame them for taking it.

It would be more beneficial to Canadians if everyone said they are not willing to pay extra when this whole mess started. I don't give a rats a$$ what is more beneficial to the Americans. Nor do I have a joyful willingness to make them richer than I have to. I don't know about you but the last time I checked I was Canadian. Did you forget that?

Sit back, shut up about your willingness to make them rich at you're expense and wait to see what they come up with.

 

[Bonjour43ma]

Again. More than 1600 and it's over priced. I'm out at that range and I'm sure many others as well.

 

[norlandgeese]

There are gazillions of firearms makers in the US for the consumer market. Everyone is trying to make something "different". Go to Shot Show and you will understand. It doesn't need to make sense, as long as it is something different it will have a chance in the market if you market it well enough.

I think M&M was lucky with this, they hit the jack pot because of our rather stupid gun laws. The architecture doesn't makes sense, but our gun laws don't either! It turns out that you need to do something that doesn't make sense to get around laws that do not make sense. Bingo!

2 negatives and you end up with a positive! At the end of the day, regardless of the design concept, most people will be quite happen as long as it shoots. It scratches the "AK" itch for a lot of folks.

Ah I see it is basically Shakespearean, comedy of errors.

 

[greentips]

Very true, I highly doubt they intended this for the Canadian market, they just sort of stumbled in to it, much like RA when they were developing the XCR.

I do think XCR in general was a pretty good concept and it is quite valid of how they came to the the architecture back in the days of SCAR. Talks of those days were about "user" changeable barrel, getting rid of AR piston-in-the-bolt design, free floating hand guard, monolithic receiver.......

 

[Patt08]

I’ve never owned an xcr. Always toyed with the idea of buying one but ended up with an ACR instead. Once funds allow I might pick one up off the EE tho. I like the fact that the xcr has way better support and parts availability over the ACR though.

 

[Ar180shooter]

I do think XCR in general was a pretty good concept and it is quite valid of how they came to the the architecture back in the days of SCAR. Talks of those days were about "user" changeable barrel, getting rid of AR piston-in-the-bolt design, free floating hand guard, monolithic receiver.......

They did quite well, apart from initial QC issues (which they have largely resolved IMHO), it was a good concept. I will say that having owned an ACR too, the quick change barrel system on that platform is far superior to the XCR, as well as the accuracy of the ACR was better.

 

[Ar180shooter]

I'm not opposed to a business profiting from their investment.

I am however opposed to ignorant a$$hat Canadians who are gleefully supporting an openly confessed "subsidize the Americans at the expense of desperate firearms deprived Canadians" scheme.

A$$hats like you and many others here who are ignorantly stating much higher prices they are willing to pay are the reason we get taken advantage of which is clearly what is happening here. Dig you're head out of the sand.

Are you so gullible that you honestly believe they have no msrp pricing for us yet? They know exactly what this costs to build, ship, and export. They just decided to take a little extra time to hear from people like you thats all.

Everyone here stating specific higher prices they are willing to pay should just stfu and see where M+M decide to take this. It may not go as high as we think but if people like you keep proclaiming their willingness to throw extra money at them I don't really blame them for taking it.

It would be more beneficial to Canadians if everyone said they are not willing to pay extra when this whole mess started. I don't give a rats a$$ what is more beneficial to the Americans. Nor do I have a joyful willingness to make them richer than I have to. I don't know about you but the last time I checked I was Canadian. Did you forget that?

Sit back, shut up about your willingness to make them rich at you're expense and wait to see what they come up with.

I see lots of grandstanding and whining but no better and cheaper alternatives to the gun. It will sell for whatever it will sell for, and nobody if forcing you to buy it if you don't like the price. If nobody buys it at the price, the price will either drop of the rifle will become unavailable. What I'm saying is they have developed a rifle that escaped our stupid variant rules and they want to make a buck on it, which I don't have a problem with. At least they are being honest about the higher price. You need to realize that market forces here are different from the U.S., and prices are higher on virtually all consumer goods (although on many items like food our quality standards are also higher that they are in the U.S., and this has direct impacts on things like price). I may not be willing to buy one of them if I feel the price is unjustified based on the quality of the product, but I am under no delusions about the increased costs of doing business here. It is entirely unreasonable to expect U.S. retail pricing on guns in Canada. Contrary to a "joyful willingness" to make them "rich", I'd love to be able to buy them for the $1450 originally stated by Wanstalls, but I realize the reality of the situation, rather than some over-blown persecution complex held by individuals such as yourself. If you're tired of the "constant price gouging", move to the U.S.

Rather than whine, make a better rifle and produce it, or start an import company and import the rifle for cheaper. I'll be your first customer if you pull it off (but I doubt you will because it would require actual work).

 

[jory]

This is turning out to be the most dramatic gun I'll ever own.