Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
It most certainly is.
M&P 9mm and IDPA
- Thread starter Recce21
- Start date
It most certainly is.
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
Wrong again, it is allowed, most do not like it, but it is legal.
Thanks for the tip. Brownells had been backordered for over three months.
But they are expecting delivery the second week of Oct.
Curious...where did yours break? I actually need one that I can trim the pin on to make it non-firing but still go click for training.
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
Lets all talk about it.
Just because it has been talked about does not make something perfectly safe. Just because you have safe guidelines and/or written guidelines does not make it a safe practice. Trying to make a firearm safe by inserting a magazine that has ammunition in it to me is an unsafe practice. We are trying to make the gun safe by having it unloaded and keeping it unloaded in this step. By inserting a magazine with ammunition in it, we are reversing the process of making the pistol safe and unloaded.
It is as bad as teaching your kid to mash the gas after coming to a stop and putting it in park in front of your garage door just to ensure it is safe and not in gear. It's in the park gear right? Show me how a car gets into gear on its own. I wonder how many garage doors would be replaced.
I will assure everyone here one thing. Not one single person will be stepping on the range I am participating as a safety officer or range officer and use the above procedure.
As well, DAO versus safe action pistols makes no difference. Reholstering any pistol with something in the trigger area that will depress the trigger will make it go bang whether it be a safe action or a double action. First and foremost, everyone needs to slow down and ensure that what they are doing is safe.
Greg
Just because it has been talked about does not make something perfectly safe. Just because you have safe guidelines and/or written guidelines does not make it a safe practice. Trying to make a firearm safe by inserting a magazine that has ammunition in it to me is an unsafe practice. We are trying to make the gun safe by having it unloaded and keeping it unloaded in this step. By inserting a magazine with ammunition in it, we are reversing the process of making the pistol safe and unloaded.
It is as bad as teaching your kid to mash the gas after coming to a stop and putting it in park in front of your garage door just to ensure it is safe and not in gear. It's in the park gear right? Show me how a car gets into gear on its own. I wonder how many garage doors would be replaced.
I will assure everyone here one thing. Not one single person will be stepping on the range I am participating as a safety officer or range officer and use the above procedure.
As well, DAO versus safe action pistols makes no difference. Reholstering any pistol with something in the trigger area that will depress the trigger will make it go bang whether it be a safe action or a double action. First and foremost, everyone needs to slow down and ensure that what they are doing is safe.
Greg
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i shoot a CZ75 for IDPA in SSP..love it !!..NEVER had a problem !
It broke at the mid-point under the spring cups. just where the circumference is turned down. The fracture is as clean as a drill bit.
Today S&W apologized, saying that there had been a mix-up and that nothing had been shipped yet, but that it would be shipped to me today.
P.S.: read the comments on this thread
http://pistol-training.com/archives/998
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Wendall what series of the M&P do you have? I know the early versions had poor strikers. Since that first batch I understood S&W had changed suppliers and the problem has pretty much disappeared. I believe the "N" series as denoted on the inside of the dustcover was the latest but that may have since changed. The M&P Forum I think has the the varous series noted.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
That would be an earlier version of the gun. I believe the "N" series followed that if memory serves me correctly. The M&P Forum has a thread that listed the various series leading up to the "N". I am not sure if there hasn't been an series after the "N" or not.
Take Care
Bob
Well for starters part of the unload drill is pulling the trigger while the pistol is pointed in a safe direction after confirming the chamber is empty. Being a retard and playing cowboy in a BAT in KAF doesn't qualify as a proper unload drill with a safe direction.
Your arguement doesn't make sense.
The rationale to the 'hammer down' component is simply another safety step past 'unload and show clear' to ensure that if for some unfathomable reason the shooter and SO both missed that a round is in the chamber, it would be fired in a safe direction, as some autos can be fired without a magazine inserted.
This rationale has transended through all unloading drills with autos, even on ones with mag disconnects.
If a magazine is loaded into a pistol that already has the slide forward on an empty chamber whether it has rounds in it or not is immaterial.
Do you say 'hammer down' when you SO revolvers? The answer is NO.
Because the rationale for clearing a revolver is different, and the rules reflect that....
Your analogy makes no sense. You are comparing a sequence of events (with the pistol) that cannot physically happen, with one of mechanical failure. It's rather illogical, and quite frankly, kind of insulting.
If you came down here with that attitude while I was the MD, you'd be packing your stuff in short order.
Really, I think you are taking too much stock out of this. As an SO, I've run across two types with the mag disconnects: experienced shooters that are slow methodical, and pause with the mag to show me it needs to be loaded in order to hammer down, and those that are new, and I simply talk them through it slowly and calmly.
If you feel this strongly about the mag disconnects, how do you feel about running hot ranges?
Agreed.
- Location
- Peace River, Alberta
Insulting, really and your post has what in it?
I have got no issues with hot ranges. None what so ever. I have run hot ranges, participated in hot ranges etc. I actually carried hot all day long for work.
It still makes no sense to put live ammunition into a firearm that you are proving is unloaded and safe. For all of you out there, I fully understand the mechanics of semi auto's and semi auto's with mag disconnects. I have actually owned both. And for those of you that think I have only shot a couple of weeks think again.
This is not a mechanical issue. It is an issue about mentality. Do not put live ammunition into a gun to attempt to prove it is unloaded! It is simple.
Watching over someone as an SO, there are many distractions. The shooter is finished and trying to get back to his/her friends as soon as possible it seems with many times no intention of listening and obeying your commands, he/she is cursing themselves for not shooting the stage as they thought they should. They are questioning you. The scorekeeper is questioning you, your trying to make sure that everyone around you is safe, your getting ready for scoring of the stage. A multitude of things are transpiring and you might not have your head exactly in the game when you should. How hard is it to put a empty magazine in the firearm to make sure it is safe and everyone around you is safe. I bet it was as easy and it was to type your insulting assumptions of me were.
It is never going to happen to me. Just keep repeating it until it happens. You know last match, I told everyone to slow down and follow the commands the SO gives but do you think that happened? But hey it is okay because no one had an accident because everyone is an expert and knows more than I do.
As for visiting you with my attitude, you haven't been waiting by the gate to open if for me all this time have you?
Greg
Here are some others comments.
Why I hate magazine safeties
Posted on March 16, 2009 by Caleb
I was talking yesterday in The Conspiracy with some of the guys about magazine safeties, and why they suck so much. In my opinion, the magazine disconnect safety is a “safety device” which actually makes the gun less safe for the user and for anyone else around them. Not to pick on Ruger, but I’ll use their SR9 as my example, because it features a magazine safety and were it not for the mag disconnect safety I’d recommend the gun without hesitation.
To illustrate why mag disconnects make your gun unsafe, allow me to draw and example from competition shooting. In USPSA/IDPA shooting, at the end of each course of fire, you (the shooter) are required to “unload and show clear” – meaning that you have to demonstrate to the RO that you have an empty (cold) gun before you can holster. The range commands go roughly as follows:
1.“If you are finished, unload (drop the mag) and show clear (rack the slide to eject the round).
2.If clear (the RO looks in the slide to verify an empty chamber) slide forward and hammer down. (lower the slide and dry fire the gun)
The problem with a magazine disconnect safety rears its ugly head when you have to dry fire the gun – because you can’t dry fire a gun with a mag disconnect safety unless you stick a magazine in it, the “slide forward/hammer down” step requires additional manipulation of the gun beyond what you’d see with a Glock or 1911. To complete this step, after lowering the slide, you have to insert an empty magazine into the gun to dry fire it – and as an RO/SO myself, nothing cranks up the pucker factor like someone putting a magazine into a gun that’s supposed to be cold.
Now, you’re probably thinking “Caleb, what could go wrong? It’s just an empty mag, surely someone wouldn’t put a loaded mag into the gun while the slide was back and then cook a round off.” You know, I’d like to think that, but the problem is that 1) I’ve seen exactly that happen at .22 matches with a Walther P22, and I firmly believe that the most effective way to ensure that your gun is safe is to make the manual of arms as simple and straightforward as possible.
I was at a .22 only steel match once, and I saw exactly what I describe above. At the command of “slide forward and hammer down”, the shooter put a loaded .22 magazine into his P22, dropped the slide (chambering a round) and proceeded to cook a round off into the berm, scaring the beejesus out of his RO. Now, the RO should have seen the loaded mag and stopped him, but the point remains – magazine disconnect safeties add an unnecessary and potentially dangerous step to the manual of arms for both competition shooters and defensive shooters.
For people who don’t shoot competition, the mag disconnect safety is just as dangerous – because it requires you to put an ammo feeding device (magazine) into the gun when you’re dry firing. That adds an additional element of danger, because it removes the first safety step of dry fire practice, which is remove the source of ammo from the gun.
I probably could have written a much shorter post about this – however the long and short of it is that I utterly despise mag disconnect safeties. I think they’re unnecessary legal masturbation, and add an actual element of danger to the safe handling and operation of your firearm.
Holy Frak, a like minded thinker with a bad attitude. What a freaking amateur that brings nothing to the group! God, it takes me a lot of self control not to get another infraction.
I have got no issues with hot ranges. None what so ever. I have run hot ranges, participated in hot ranges etc. I actually carried hot all day long for work.
It still makes no sense to put live ammunition into a firearm that you are proving is unloaded and safe. For all of you out there, I fully understand the mechanics of semi auto's and semi auto's with mag disconnects. I have actually owned both. And for those of you that think I have only shot a couple of weeks think again.
This is not a mechanical issue. It is an issue about mentality. Do not put live ammunition into a gun to attempt to prove it is unloaded! It is simple.
Watching over someone as an SO, there are many distractions. The shooter is finished and trying to get back to his/her friends as soon as possible it seems with many times no intention of listening and obeying your commands, he/she is cursing themselves for not shooting the stage as they thought they should. They are questioning you. The scorekeeper is questioning you, your trying to make sure that everyone around you is safe, your getting ready for scoring of the stage. A multitude of things are transpiring and you might not have your head exactly in the game when you should. How hard is it to put a empty magazine in the firearm to make sure it is safe and everyone around you is safe. I bet it was as easy and it was to type your insulting assumptions of me were.
It is never going to happen to me. Just keep repeating it until it happens. You know last match, I told everyone to slow down and follow the commands the SO gives but do you think that happened? But hey it is okay because no one had an accident because everyone is an expert and knows more than I do.
As for visiting you with my attitude, you haven't been waiting by the gate to open if for me all this time have you?
Greg
Here are some others comments.
Why I hate magazine safeties
Posted on March 16, 2009 by Caleb
I was talking yesterday in The Conspiracy with some of the guys about magazine safeties, and why they suck so much. In my opinion, the magazine disconnect safety is a “safety device” which actually makes the gun less safe for the user and for anyone else around them. Not to pick on Ruger, but I’ll use their SR9 as my example, because it features a magazine safety and were it not for the mag disconnect safety I’d recommend the gun without hesitation.
To illustrate why mag disconnects make your gun unsafe, allow me to draw and example from competition shooting. In USPSA/IDPA shooting, at the end of each course of fire, you (the shooter) are required to “unload and show clear” – meaning that you have to demonstrate to the RO that you have an empty (cold) gun before you can holster. The range commands go roughly as follows:
1.“If you are finished, unload (drop the mag) and show clear (rack the slide to eject the round).
2.If clear (the RO looks in the slide to verify an empty chamber) slide forward and hammer down. (lower the slide and dry fire the gun)
The problem with a magazine disconnect safety rears its ugly head when you have to dry fire the gun – because you can’t dry fire a gun with a mag disconnect safety unless you stick a magazine in it, the “slide forward/hammer down” step requires additional manipulation of the gun beyond what you’d see with a Glock or 1911. To complete this step, after lowering the slide, you have to insert an empty magazine into the gun to dry fire it – and as an RO/SO myself, nothing cranks up the pucker factor like someone putting a magazine into a gun that’s supposed to be cold.
Now, you’re probably thinking “Caleb, what could go wrong? It’s just an empty mag, surely someone wouldn’t put a loaded mag into the gun while the slide was back and then cook a round off.” You know, I’d like to think that, but the problem is that 1) I’ve seen exactly that happen at .22 matches with a Walther P22, and I firmly believe that the most effective way to ensure that your gun is safe is to make the manual of arms as simple and straightforward as possible.
I was at a .22 only steel match once, and I saw exactly what I describe above. At the command of “slide forward and hammer down”, the shooter put a loaded .22 magazine into his P22, dropped the slide (chambering a round) and proceeded to cook a round off into the berm, scaring the beejesus out of his RO. Now, the RO should have seen the loaded mag and stopped him, but the point remains – magazine disconnect safeties add an unnecessary and potentially dangerous step to the manual of arms for both competition shooters and defensive shooters.
For people who don’t shoot competition, the mag disconnect safety is just as dangerous – because it requires you to put an ammo feeding device (magazine) into the gun when you’re dry firing. That adds an additional element of danger, because it removes the first safety step of dry fire practice, which is remove the source of ammo from the gun.
I probably could have written a much shorter post about this – however the long and short of it is that I utterly despise mag disconnect safeties. I think they’re unnecessary legal masturbation, and add an actual element of danger to the safe handling and operation of your firearm.
Holy Frak, a like minded thinker with a bad attitude. What a freaking amateur that brings nothing to the group! God, it takes me a lot of self control not to get another infraction.
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Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
Were exactly is this thread going? Bottom line, for those of you that are comfortable allowing a shooter to drop the hammer, once the gun has been shown clear, on a magazine with ammo in it, go for it. For those of you that are not comfortable doing this method of hammer down, as an SOI and area coordinator, I would encourage you to allow the shooter to empty a magazine into your hand, as I prefer, and then complete the hammer down and holster process. This is not rocket science, it is a simple method to perform, just deal with it as you see fit ensuring your range is safe. Remember one thing, when the range is hot, the SO is in charge. We have SO's at our club that have no problem with this and ones who will not do this, it is up to you as the SO to choose the way you want it done. Now that being said, make sure when the shooter comes to the line, and you see they have a firearm that has the mag safety, make certain you inform them of how you as the SO want them to do the hammer down and holster. Now for the love of all things fun, can we please get back to shooting.........!
I agree with all of your comments Steve except for the one I've highlighted.
The SO is in charge of the range/bay period. full stop.
Greg:
If you have issues with how people do hammer down with a firearm with a mag safety, that's obviously your perogative as an SO.
However, you may want to keep this discussion in mind if you ever decide to DQ someone because they didn't do it the way you like it done.
It's 6 and a half dozen.
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
That is what I meant, should have worded it different.
x2
That - combined with the known conditioning effect on those people who have become accustomed to relying upon the magazine disconnect as a "safety" (ironically, in a world where that feature is actually the exception rather than the rule) - is what I mean when I say, "the magazine disconnector is inherently unsafe".
I own an M&P with the mag disconnect and use it for IDPA. If I know for a fact that the chamber is empty and the slide is dropped it doesn't really bother me personally inserting a loaded mag to drop the hammer. If the chamber is empty and the slide is forward it is IMPOSSIBLE to somehow send lead down range without racking the slide manually.
That said, some of the SO's want the mag to be empty. It is a bit of a pain having to unload a mag before inserting it but it's not really a big deal. If they want an empty mag, they get an empty mag, no biggie.
That said, some of the SO's want the mag to be empty. It is a bit of a pain having to unload a mag before inserting it but it's not really a big deal. If they want an empty mag, they get an empty mag, no biggie.
Just put a single round in your charging mag and hand it to the SO when you're done with it. Easier than putting it in your own pocket.
