M&P Slide Release - A problem for IPSC

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Slavex said:
reading your post tells me you don't understand what fine motor skills vs gross motor skills actually means. Anything that requires grasping or manipulating of an item is a FINE motor skill. Hitting, punching and kicking are gross motor skills. Further if your fine motor skills degrade so poorly under stress that using the slide release is not possible how are you ever going operate the trigger or mag release? Under some arguments for Fine vs Gross, hitting the slide release could actually be a Gross motor skill function, but that's a debate for another day.

You should probably try reading a bit more and try training with people that actually know what they are talking about before you try to become an internet expert.
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I can assure you that I have more than enough experience and training on the topic to offer my opinion. If you want to nit pick, yes, you're right. Anything done with the hands is a "Fine Motor Skill" by definition. But the act of operating a small lever with a single digit, vs operating the whole slide with your whole hand is a Fine vs Gross movement when it comes to pistol handling. I certainly didn't say it wasn't possible to operate the slide stop under stress, I said the chances of making a mistake with that movement, rate higher than if you grab the slide and work the action.

Your argument of mag release and trigger operation degrading under stress actually validates my point... If you have the experience that you say you do, you'll agree with me what once someone is put under stress, their shooting and pistol handling suffers. Their groupings open up and they're reloads start to get rushed and sloppy.

I don't train for a world of targets and timers. At the end of the day all pistol manipulations should be done using techniques with the highest rate of success. In my 1000+ hours of range time, the over hand slide manipulation is what I train for and it has never failed me.

If you've trained yourself to a level where you're confident in your tactics, then that's fine. But for the average shooter, I don't think it's the right way to go.

Differing opinions make the world go round. I'm not offended by yours, and I don't expect you to get your back up over mine.
 
This isn't a simple matter of different opinions. It's a matter of factual information. Operating the slide release takes the exact same amount of fine motor skill as grasping the slide. If you can't do one you can't do the other. There are those of us who are professional trainers who actually know things and have been taught by some of the best in the business for both gaming and tactical shooting. And it's not about getting my back up, it's about putting a stop to the spread of false information that is constantly being spread in our community. People bandy about these words in an attempt to sound like they know what they are talking about, and honestly they don't.

As for hand grasping the slide not failing, hate to burst your bubble it happens all the time. people ride slides or get it caught in clothing due to the close to the body position they do the manipulation from. Pressing down the slide release allows the gun to function as it was designed to do, going forward with the contained spring pressure from the point it got trapped out.

People and schools that treat racking the slide as being a common, 1 stop shop, solution to dealing with their gun and things that can befall it are training to the lowest common denominator shooter out there, usually the LEO candidate who really isn't interested in using a gun beyond training. They get taught a solution that their lazy uninterested minds can deal with. Anyone with an even slight interest in improving their skills will learn all the ways to work with their gun, and all the ways to fix it and then use the best one for the job when it's needed. It isn't that hard to do, and all it takes is practice. In my 10s of thousands of hours of teaching, being taught and competing, that's what I've learned. And I'm still learning. But certain things like the concept behind Gross motor and Fine motor control skills are set in stone and purposely limiting options for the interested shooter is a disservice to the shooting community.
 
Slavex said:
I wouldn't say it makes sense to shoot to slide lock, anytime you do that in IPSC it's a risk. you are either trying to avoid a reload on a short 11 round stage or trying to change where you do the reload on larger stages due to excellent stage design by a crafty MD. But it's always a risk playing the last round game like that.
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That is essentially the point I am trying to make. In a match, you will normally do whatever gets you through the stage best, tactics are really not relevent, except perhaps for some who genuinely use IPSC as training (LEO, Military folks).
 
For those who want to initiate an "auto-forward" the technique is simple - after indexing the magazine into the well, the insertion stroke is upward and forward at about a 45 degree angle, with the heel of your hand on the baseplate of the magazine as the magazine locks. Mine does it predictably, but I generally avoid doing so and use the release. It always works.
 
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Ahhhh... Slavex... Someone is wrong on the internet!! :)

(FWIW, my own dilettante opinion agrees with your well-informed experience and opinion)

I totally appreciate your contribution, and I'd like to see more of it on CGN (more from you in particular, and more of its type in general). I personally think there should be more of an expectation to read and understand, like some of the better-moderated forums out there.
 
BooSSted said:
Differing opinions make the world go round. I'm not offended by yours, and I don't expect you to get your back up over mine.
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I like seeing many and contrary opinions presented. Particularly when the opinion is supported by evidence. However, as I read it you didn't state your post as "opinion". You stated it as fact, which leaves your post subject to the correction that Slavex offered.
 
Slavex said:
This isn't a simple matter of different opinions. It's a matter of factual information. Operating the slide release takes the exact same amount of fine motor skill as grasping the slide. If you can't do one you can't do the other. There are those of us who are professional trainers who actually know things and have been taught by some of the best in the business for both gaming and tactical shooting. And it's not about getting my back up, it's about putting a stop to the spread of false information that is constantly being spread in our community. People bandy about these words in an attempt to sound like they know what they are talking about, and honestly they don't.

As for hand grasping the slide not failing, hate to burst your bubble it happens all the time. people ride slides or get it caught in clothing due to the close to the body position they do the manipulation from. Pressing down the slide release allows the gun to function as it was designed to do, going forward with the contained spring pressure from the point it got trapped out.

People and schools that treat racking the slide as being a common, 1 stop shop, solution to dealing with their gun and things that can befall it are training to the lowest common denominator shooter out there, usually the LEO candidate who really isn't interested in using a gun beyond training. They get taught a solution that their lazy uninterested minds can deal with. Anyone with an even slight interest in improving their skills will learn all the ways to work with their gun, and all the ways to fix it and then use the best one for the job when it's needed. It isn't that hard to do, and all it takes is practice. In my 10s of thousands of hours of teaching, being taught and competing, that's what I've learned. And I'm still learning. But certain things like the concept behind Gross motor and Fine motor control skills are set in stone and purposely limiting options for the interested shooter is a disservice to the shooting community.
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I am a professional, this is what I do... I have been trained by some of the best in the business and they share my opinion. I disagree with you, and you with me. We'll leave it at that. I don't want to continue a keyboard war that isn't going to benefit either of us or resolve anything.
 
People and schools that treat racking the slide as being a common, 1 stop shop, solution to dealing with their gun and things that can befall it are training to the lowest common denominator shooter out there, usually the LEO candidate who really isn't interested in using a gun beyond training. They get taught a solution that their lazy uninterested minds can deal with. Anyone with an even slight interest in improving their skills will learn all the ways to work with their gun, and all the ways to fix it and then use the best one for the job when it's needed. It isn't that hard to do, and all it takes is practice. In my 10s of thousands of hours of teaching, being taught and competing, that's what I've learned. And I'm still learning. But certain things like the concept behind Gross motor and Fine motor control skills are set in stone and purposely limiting options for the interested shooter is a disservice to the shooting community.
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This I have to agree with.

Here's my .02.

Standing is a gross motor skill. Threading a needle is a fine motor skill. Where does gross end and fine begin ? Over the top racking uses the whole hand and therefore slingshot racking using just thumb and forefinger must be a finer motor skill. Using the thumb for the slide stop or the mag release must be finer still, but it is obviously do-able.

Doesn't really matter. When the SHTF you do what you are trained to do thru hundreds of repetitions. Which is why the statement quoted is correct. It's the KISS principle. Give them one option and with limited training it will be the one remembered, (actually the one done automatically). There are some things that in my view shouldn't be done. Relying on the slide to snap forward when inserting a magazine is one of them. In the aforementioned SHTF situation short term memory dissolves and you do what you are trained to do, so what do you do if the slide doesn't snap forward ?

However, as stated by someone above, the discussion is for an IPSC user. My answer is, train yourself to do it, and that is what you will be able to do.

TJ
 
so the best of the best don't understand basic early childhood development terms or theories? Interesting, I guess I know which instructors not to bother taking any courses from
 
OK, now I'm confused, I thought I was, at least somewhat familiar with the basic teachings of the vast majority of serious instructors. I'm only familiar with one training outfit that stresses the exclusive use of the 'powerstroke'. It's not, to my knowledge, any of the following; Ken Hackathorn, Paul Howe, Dave Spaulding, Super Dave, Larry Vickers, Massad Ayoob (showing my age there), Todd Green, Chris Costa, Travis Hailey, Louis Awerbuck, or Bill Rogers. Did I miss something?
 
for sure it loosens up, but my M&P also slams the slide home when I slam in a mag, saving lots of time... I dont even hit the button because its faster to just slap a mag in and be done with it.

great "feature"? happy coincidence?
 
If I can wade in...

I have shot a lot of ammo and done a lot of mag dumps with a couple of different steel pistols. In the event I needed the 11th round for some reason and I was slide locked, the followthrough of the upward movement of my weak hand on the reload allowed my thumb to stab the slide release every time and allowed the slide to come into battery as I was regaining my grip. I find it plenty smooth, plenty fast, and I can feel the slide lock forward as I refocus onto the next A zone. And to me it has worked every time.

In my opinion (as an old guy who has shot ipsc since 1977 until I got better hobbies in 2005) I have seen many new shooters get convinced that some local hotshot was the guru-to-follow. Here's a suggestion...create some dummy rounds and do drills both ways until you are comfortable with both. Now get to the range and use a timer to prove which is gonna shave 0.4 (or possibly 1.2) off the first shot after a standing slidelock reload. Do it 10 times and compare.

If you try the mag release with an open mind, you will be surprised. Not only that, you will see that your brain will be able to differentiate between action required for slidelock and action required for failure to lock into battery once the gun is up and engaging targets.
 
enefgee said:
...Ken Hackathorn, Paul Howe, Dave Spaulding, Super Dave, Larry Vickers, Massad Ayoob (showing my age there), Todd Green, Chris Costa, Travis Hailey, Louis Awerbuck, or Bill Rogers. Did I miss something?
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Going back to the thread title and primary question; these guys do not shoot IPSC.
Wouldn't more appropriate references be Max Michel, Eric Grauffel, Manny Bragg, Travis Tomasie, Phil Strader, Saul Kirsch, Chris Tilley, Ben Stoeger, Mike Voight and Frank Garcia?
:cheers:
 
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Freedom Ventures said:
Going back to the thread title and primary question; these guys do not shoot IPSC.
Wouldn't more appropriate references be Max Michel, Eric Grauffel, Manny Bragg, Travis Tomasie, Phil Strader, Saul Kirsch, Chris Tilley, Ben Stoeger, Mike Voight and Frank Garcia?
:cheers:
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Actually, you'd be shocked at how many of them do shoot IPSC - and Ken H and LAV helped invent IDPA.
 
enefgee said:
Actually, you'd be shocked at how many of them do shoot IPSC - and Ken H and LAV helped invent IDPA.
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IDPA has nothing to do with this - again, the topic at hand is IPSC.

I'll challenge you to show me a recent result in the last 5 years from a major match that any of them competed in, then I'll be shocked.
If you can find such a thing, and any of them got a 70% or more in the division they chose; I'll be doubly shocked.
 
Freedom Ventures said:
Going back to the thread title and primary question; these guys do not shoot IPSC.
Wouldn't more appropriate references be Max Michel, Eric Grauffel, Manny Bragg, Travis Tomasie, Phil Strader, Saul Kirsch, Chris Tilley, Ben Stoeger, Mike Voight and Frank Garcia?
:cheers:
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Very useful clarification.
 
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