M1 Garand Ammo problem + Adjustable Gas plug

jeffQC1

jeffQC1

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Hi.

Recently bought an HRA M1 Garand, that i cannot yet take home due to me waiting for the PAL. However, i'm currently trying to fix the ammo issue.

As some of you may know, the M1 Garand was designed to shoot the M2 Ball .30-06, which shoot a 151gr bullet at around 2700 FPS, with a somewhat lower pressure compared to many modern ammo. Most commercial .30-06 ammo have higher pressures and many have heavier and lighter bullets, that can cause damage to the Garand if you consistently shoot commercial ammo through it without using specific Garand specs ammo or using a adjustable gas plug.

Now, i'm asking if shooting commercial ammo with similar bullet weight and speed to the M2 Ball specs will be safe for the rifle?

Also, if any of you know where to find adjustable gas plugs for M1 Garand in Canada. I found many in the US, but many doesn't export to Canada or require a lenghty and pain-in-the-ass import permit.

I will absolutely go for an adjustable gas plug, but i plan to maybe use standard commercial ammo as a placeholder or buy some special Garand ammo (That offer limited choice, quantities and high price), until i get the plug.

Reloading is also an option, although unsure if i can easily get the stuff to make M2 ball spec ammo,

Thank you kindly for any charitable response.
 
the barrel will handle commercial ammo its damage to the oprod you need to worry about

reloading components are easy to come by I use canpar 150grn fmj .308 bullets with imr4895 powder you can get a load pretty close to usgi spec

Im not a fan of adjustable gas plug if it was a good idea the us military would have made them......
 
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Check out some of the reloading books for M1 Garand loads. The NRA Reloading Guide has some, but it you were to google the subject on the internet, I think you will find lots of information.

As mentioned, the damage to the operating rod is a concern. The use of IMR 4895 powder is a good idea, as the pressures can be made similar. Very slow burning powders do not seem to be appropriate. The M1 Garand taps gas off the muzzle end of the barrel, and too much pressure there from an inappropriate powder or maximum load will damage the op rod.

One thing here --- most of the loads recommended use COMMERCIAL cases. MILITARY cases tend to be a bit thicker, thus a bit reduced in internal capacity, so start a bit low and work upwards.
 
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AFAIK the only commercial ammo which is advertised as Garand compatible by reason of suitable propellants and bullet weights are the Hornady 168 gr and American Eagle 150 gr, both of which are labelled for the Garand. Commercial .30-06 ammo is loaded with slower burning powders in the interests of higher velocity and these do not generate the correct gas port pressure for the rifle.

I reload extensively for the Garand using 150-168gr bullets and IMR4895, IMR4064 and H4895. IMR49895 was the MILSPEC propellant for military ammo, but the other 2 have compatible burning rates. These 3 propellants cycle the action safely and reliably and produce excellent accuracy, so there's no point in looking further.

There are Cdn vendors who sell adjustable gas plugs for use with slower burning powder in commercial ammo. You might try a WTB ad on the EE. I use a couple of them made by CGN member "Pocketfisherman" in my 7.62mm Garands and they work well. The only reason why I've done this is because I'm very fond of my big stash of WC755 ball powder in the .308 Win/7.62 and get excellent results in my 7.62 handloads. WC755 is too slow burning and generates the wrong gas port pressure pulse for the Garand, but it works well using the adjustable plug.

A few caveats on reloading for the Garand besides using the correct propellant and 150-168gr bullets; always FL resize, keep cases trimmed below specified OAL, seat primers below flush with the case head and don't try to get more than 5 firings out of a piece of brass. I avoid Federal primers which are reputed to have soft cups and have always had good results with all of WLR, Rem 91/2, CCI LR and CCI No 34 primers. There's no need to use a small base resizing die when reloading for a Garand. You can strip the rifle and remove the op rod and spring and bolt internals in order to trial chamber resized brass to ensure free chambering.

It's worth reading up on slamfires and out of battery detonations when reloading for semi-auto rifles, incl the Garand. These can result from several ammo and mechanically related factors in the Garand.
 
ricohman said:
Why not buy commercial PPU M1 ammo? It's made for the Garand and others have used it safely.
Click to expand...

It's mainly a question of saving money and obtaining more quantities. M1 ammo can be bought but at a usually much higher price than you standard ammo. I was thinking about either making the ammo or buying it cheap somewhere. A new adjustable plug would allow me to use a larger variety of ammo and aso resupply myself at my local store easily.

But i think reloading is the answer. That way, i can easily make sure to have ammo with the good specs, insure a longevity for the M1 and plenty of shots cheaper per round.

purple said:
AFAIK the only commercial ammo which is advertised as Garand compatible by reason of suitable propellants and bullet weights are the Hornady 168 gr and American Eagle 150 gr, both of which are labelled for the Garand. Commercial .30-06 ammo is loaded with slower burning powders in the interests of higher velocity and these do not generate the correct gas port pressure for the rifle.

I reload extensively for the Garand using 150-168gr bullets and IMR4895, IMR4064 and H4895. IMR49895 was the MILSPEC propellant for military ammo, but the other 2 have compatible burning rates. These 3 propellants cycle the action safely and reliably and produce excellent accuracy, so there's no point in looking further.

There are Cdn vendors who sell adjustable gas plugs for use with slower burning powder in commercial ammo. You might try a WTB ad on the EE. I use a couple of them made by CGN member "Pocketfisherman" in my 7.62mm Garands and they work well. The only reason why I've done this is because I'm very fond of my big stash of WC755 ball powder in the .308 Win/7.62 and get excellent results in my 7.62 handloads. WC755 is too slow burning and generates the wrong gas port pressure pulse for the Garand, but it works well using the adjustable plug.

A few caveats on reloading for the Garand besides using the correct propellant and 150-168gr bullets; always FL resize, keep cases trimmed below specified OAL, seat primers below flush with the case head and don't try to get more than 5 firings out of a piece of brass. I avoid Federal primers which are reputed to have soft cups and have always had good results with all of WLR, Rem 91/2, CCI LR and CCI No 34 primers. There's no need to use a small base resizing die when reloading for a Garand. You can strip the rifle and remove the op rod and spring and bolt internals in order to trial chamber resized brass to ensure free chambering.

It's worth reading up on slamfires and out of battery detonations when reloading for semi-auto rifles, incl the Garand. These can result from several ammo and mechanically related factors in the Garand.
Click to expand...

I see. Perhaps, i can find specific information about the Garand loading. Is slamfire and out of battery really a thing for the Garand? I didn't heard much about this, although i did heard short strokes issues sometimes.

Perhaps, buying a bunch of M2 Ball ammo and reusing the brass could be a good idea?
 
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jeffQC1 said:
It's mainly a question of saving money and obtaining more quantities. M1 ammo can be bought but at a usually much higher price than you standard ammo. I was thinking about either making the ammo or buying it cheap somewhere. A new adjustable plug would allow me to use a larger variety of ammo and aso resupply myself at my local store easily.

But i think reloading is the answer. That way, i can easily make sure to have ammo with the good specs, insure a longevity for the M1 and plenty of shots cheaper per round.



I see. Perhaps, i can find specific information about the Garand loading. Is slamfire and out of battery really a thing for the Garand? I didn't heard much about this, although i did heard short strokes issues sometimes.

Perhaps, buying a bunch of M2 Ball ammo and reusing the brass could be a good idea?
Click to expand...

I bought both the PPU ammo and new PPU brass. I will reload with IMR4985 and 150gr bullets as purple recommended.
This way I can go shooting and reload at my convenience.
 
jona710 said:
I bought an adjustable plug from Brownells

If you’re in ns or nb I can sell you 150 rounds of Garand ppu ammo!
Click to expand...

I live in Québec and don't have yet my PAL (Already sent, just waiting for it). If you don't mind me asking, how was the process of buying and importing the adjustable gas plug from Brownells? They say they require a import permit of some sort, although PAL owners can import ammo and some parts without it.
 
You don’t need a pal and it’s in stock on their website so no importation. Just buy it on their site. Their tracking is iffy though it tracks only to Canada then it shows up when it shows up haha. Took maybe 2-3 weeks to get to me in Nova Scotia.

Same as anything from brownells just ordered online it will show up eventually. Make sure you get the Garand one not the m1a one!
 
jona710 said:
You don’t need a pal and it’s in stock on their website so no importation. Just buy it on their site. Their tracking is iffy though it tracks only to Canada then it shows up when it shows up haha. Took maybe 2-3 weeks to get to me in Nova Scotia.

Same as anything from brownells just ordered online it will show up eventually. Make sure you get the Garand one not the m1a one!
Click to expand...

Alright, il try this out.
 
jeffQC1 said:
It's mainly a question of saving money and obtaining more quantities. M1 ammo can be bought but at a usually much higher price than you standard ammo. I was thinking about either making the ammo or buying it cheap somewhere. A new adjustable plug would allow me to use a larger variety of ammo and aso resupply myself at my local store easily.

But i think reloading is the answer. That way, i can easily make sure to have ammo with the good specs, insure a longevity for the M1 and plenty of shots cheaper per round.



I see. Perhaps, i can find specific information about the Garand loading. Is slamfire and out of battery really a thing for the Garand? I didn't heard much about this, although i did heard short strokes issues sometimes.

Perhaps, buying a bunch of M2 Ball ammo and reusing the brass could be a good idea?
Click to expand...

A serious Garand wanker should get a copy of Kuhnhausen's comprehensive Shop Manual on the M1/M14. It is a guiding light when it comes to building/inspecting/troubleshooting/repairing a Garand, but it also has an excellent discussion on slamfires and out of battery detonations with the rifle, incl reloading precautions to avoid these problems.

Slamfires/OOB problems can be due to either ammunition or mechanical factors or a combination of the two. I mentioned some important caveats on reloading for a Garand in my previous post. I can't overemphasize the importance of case preparation and proper FL resizing to avoid OOB problems due to cases which will not fully chamber when the bolt is closed. Cases must permit the bolt to fully close w/o feeling any resistance. You can get away with less than FL resized cases in a bolt rifle due to the powerful camming action of the bolt when it closes. But the Garand relies on the forward inertia of the bolt and the pressure of the op rod spring to close the bolt, so cases must chamber freely.

This means trimming resized cases to below max length and FL resizing, not neck sizing. FL resizing is critical because, in addition to setting the case shoulder back, it also reduces the radial dimension of the case body to permit free chambering. I once experienced an OOB detonation with a reload in an M14. The case did chamber far enough to permit the bolt lugs to engage sufficiently to prevent a blowback or a case rupture, but the bolt remained forward after firing and was not fully closed. The case had been FL resized and I put the reason for this down to brass springback following FL resizing which meant that the case diameter wasn't reduced enough to permit full chambering. About 21/2 yrs ago I ran a test with chambering FL resized military brass in a 7.62 Garand and found that a significant number of cases weren't sufficiently reduced after FL resizing to permit chambering w/o resistance. I ran a post in the Battle Rifles Forum about this for the interest of folks who reload for M14 types.

The Garand bolt uses a floating firing pin which runs forward and may lightly contact the primer on chambering w/o detonating the primer. You can often see these firing pin "kisses" on the primer when you extract an unfired round. This is why MILSPEC primers, like the CCI No 34, use harder metal in their cups than commercial primers. This is another reason why primers must be seated slightly below flush with the case head. Seating primers below flush also eliminates any possibility of the bolt face contacting the primer when a round is fed and chambered by the forward action of the bolt.

On the mechanical side its important that the firing pin length is within spec and that the firing pin isn't broken or fouled inside the bolt which may cause the tip to "freeze" forward of the bolt face thereby causing a high risk of a slamfire on feeding/chambering. The "tail" of the firing pin must not be excessively worn or broken/deformed which might prevent its proper interaction with the safety bridge in the receiver.

When loading the rifle it should be loaded from the clip rather than dropping a round in the chamber and then releasing the bolt to allow it to slam forward on the chambered round. Clip loading slows the velocity of the bolt which reduces the possibility of an OOB event when the bolt closes on a chambered round.

The Garand is a safe and reliable rifle, but it pays to get the full knowledge on reloading for it. It's different than cranking out .30-06 or .308 handloads for a bolt action hunting rifle.
 
purple said:
A serious Garand wanker should get a copy of Kuhnhausen's comprehensive Shop Manual on the M1/M14. It is a guiding light when it comes to building/inspecting/troubleshooting/repairing a Garand, but it also has an excellent discussion on slamfires and out of battery detonations with the rifle, incl reloading precautions to avoid these problems.

Slamfires/OOB problems can be due to either ammunition or mechanical factors or a combination of the two. I mentioned some important caveats on reloading for a Garand in my previous post. I can't overemphasize the importance of case preparation and proper FL resizing to avoid OOB problems due to cases which will not fully chamber when the bolt is closed. Cases must permit the bolt to fully close w/o feeling any resistance. You can get away with less than FL resized cases in a bolt rifle due to the powerful camming action of the bolt when it closes. But the Garand relies on the forward inertia of the bolt and the pressure of the op rod spring to close the bolt, so cases must chamber freely.

This means trimming resized cases to below max length and FL resizing, not neck sizing. FL resizing is critical because, in addition to setting the case shoulder back, it also reduces the radial dimension of the case body to permit free chambering. I once experienced an OOB detonation with a reload in an M14. The case did chamber far enough to permit the bolt lugs to engage sufficiently to prevent a blowback or a case rupture, but the bolt remained forward after firing and was not fully closed. The case had been FL resized and I put the reason for this down to brass springback following FL resizing which meant that the case diameter wasn't reduced enough to permit full chambering. About 21/2 yrs ago I ran a test with chambering FL resized military brass in a 7.62 Garand and found that a significant number of cases weren't sufficiently reduced after FL resizing to permit chambering w/o resistance. I ran a post in the Battle Rifles Forum about this for the interest of folks who reload for M14 types.

The Garand bolt uses a floating firing pin which runs forward and may lightly contact the primer on chambering w/o detonating the primer. You can often see these firing pin "kisses" on the primer when you extract an unfired round. This is why MILSPEC primers, like the CCI No 34, use harder metal in their cups than commercial primers. This is another reason why primers must be seated slightly below flush with the case head. Seating primers below flush also eliminates any possibility of the bolt face contacting the primer when a round is fed and chambered by the forward action of the bolt.

On the mechanical side its important that the firing pin length is within spec and that the firing pin isn't broken or fouled inside the bolt which may cause the tip to "freeze" forward of the bolt face thereby causing a high risk of a slamfire on feeding/chambering. The "tail" of the firing pin must not be excessively worn or broken/deformed which might prevent its proper interaction with the safety bridge in the receiver.

When loading the rifle it should be loaded from the clip rather than dropping a round in the chamber and then releasing the bolt to allow it to slam forward on the chambered round. Clip loading slows the velocity of the bolt which reduces the possibility of an OOB event when the bolt closes on a chambered round.

The Garand is a safe and reliable rifle, but it pays to get the full knowledge on reloading for it. It's different than cranking out .30-06 or .308 handloads for a bolt action hunting rifle.
Click to expand...

Great explanation,also when resizing cases it's good practice to check them all in a case gauge and make absolutely sure they will chamber without any effort,I use these for all the different calibers I handload
 
You can use the rifle itself as a gauge to check if cases are sufficiently resized prior to loading them. To do so strip the rifle and the bolt, insert resized cases into the chamber and then close the bolt with light finger pressure. The bolt should close fully with no resistance felt.
 
purple said:
You can use the rifle itself as a gauge to check if cases are sufficiently resized prior to loading them. To do so strip the rifle and the bolt, insert resized cases into the chamber and then close the bolt with light finger pressure. The bolt should close fully with no resistance felt.
Click to expand...

Agreed,but a lot more work.
Also with a case gauge you can see instantly without measuring if a case needs trimming.
 
The solution I've found for my M1 Garand is simply buying commercial ammo. PPU and Federal M1 Grand safe ammo is pretty readily available now by mail order for me, and at a reasonable price for the amount of rounds I tend to shoot. Also Winchester announced at Shotshow they are introducing 30-06 fmj loaded to WWII military spec, not sure what the price will be.

PPU and Federal both function great in my rifle.

I will add that one tends to bang off a lot more rounds with the M1 while at the range simply because the recoil is so moderate for a full power round, and reloading is just so damn fast haha.
 
Kano said:
Does the problem exist for .308 Garands?
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Yes. Again the 7.62 NATO round was designed to use propellants compatible with the M14, which can be extrapolated to include the M1 Garand. MILSPEC propellant for the 7.62 NATO was the same as for the M1 Garand, IMR4895.

I reload for the 7.62 NATO in Garands and stick with any of IMR3031, IMR4895, H4895 and IMR4064 with excellent results. There's a saying that if your .308/7.62 doesn't shoot well with IMR4895, then you have a rifle problem.
 
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