M1 garand doctor near me ....need help

wolf300H&H

wolf300H&H

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
102   0   0
Location
Cabin in central Alberta
without going into too much detail ...... ive exhausted my skill and knowledge trying to get my garand to shoot consistently and accuratley ....... changed some parts ,,,stripped ,,,, handloads ,,,,, accurate but shortstroking....then vice versa with more powder

was hoping someone on here could take it and see what its problem is that is close to red deer ...... wetaskiwin ...or ponaka type area ...central alberta i guess

or if you knew someone that has extensive knowledge of these tricky firearms that could take a look ......

thanks

PS ive been thru the usual methods of repair,greasing ,cleaning ,etc ......now have been tinkering with handloads ....primers ...brass sizing ...col etc to see what works ,really need someone to take a look at it
 
Is your problem reliability or accuracy or both?

You mention short stroking as a problem. If so, there are a number of possible causes for this incl;
- oversize/worn bore of gas cyl
- undersize/worn op rod piston
- fouled bore of gas cyl
- loose gas cyl screw
- dirty gas cyl screw which does not allow the valve to fully close
- cracked interior face of gas cyl screw
- gas cyl loose on barrel around gas port
- fouled/undersize gas port in barrel
- op rod binding

Here are some handloads which have proven to be accurate, safe and mechanically reliable for me in several dozen Garands;

168 Sierra/Nosler/Hornady match bullet, 45.5gr IMR4895 or 46.5gr IMR4064, COL 3.330

155 Sierra/Nosler match bullet, 48gr IMR4895 or IMR4064, COL 3.280

150gr Hornady FMJ, 48gr IMR4895 or IMR4064, COL 3.280

When diagnosing a problem don't change more than one thing at a time. Lube/grease the rifle at specified grease points and make sure that the rear sight adjustment knobs are tight. Also, verify tight lock-up of trigger housing and no fore/aft movement of the rifle in the stock. There should be a bit of clearance between the rear surface of the rear handgd and the face of the receiver. There should also be a bit of fore/aft movement of the front handgd when the gas cyl is installed. There should be no rotational movement of the gas cyl on the barrel.
 
Go here and download the free .pdf TM's and FM's. Note the need for the provided UN & PW.
You want TM-9-1275 and FM-23-5.
TM-9-1275 has the Trouble Shooting pages. As mentioned, short stroking is a gas system issue. Doesn't always mean new parts, but the end of your op rod may be too small. Has to be no more than .525". And the gas cylinder no more than .532". Measuring that requires an inside micrometer.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/
 
Yeah I've measured the piston and changed out the gas cylinder. Changed out the spring too. Good recipe there cause it shoots 45.5 gr 4895 with the 168 s beautifully. But s strokes. 46 gr and less of an s stroke issue. But accuracy goes down hill. Fast. Even if another member here got together that has an fully functional garand as we'll maybe that is all I would need compare the two guns and see what's wrong with mine. Thanks for your info guys
 
Unfortunately comparing your rifle to another one that functions properly won't really help to ID your problem.You appear to have eliminated the gas cylinder and gas piston as a cause of short stroking. After that it's a matter of working thru the other possible gas related issues that I mentioned to ID the problem. The gas port diameter on a .30-06 barrel is .0790. A #47 drill shank can be used as a clean-out tool and "go" gauge. On the op rod spring, DO NOT use one of the commercial so-called "extra power" springs as they are too long and can prevent the action from fully cycling to the rear. The correct length of the op rod spring is 193/4 to 201/4 inches.

You should also check for a binding op rod by doing the "tilt test". A binding op rod will inhibit proper cycling even if the gas supply is OK. To do the tilt test remove the barreled action from the stock and remove the following parts; follower arm pin, follower arm, bullet guide, op rod catch, follower and follower rod with op rod spring. With the bolt and op rod installed and in the closed position, hold the rifle in a horizontal position. Next tilt the muzzle up to a 45 degree position. The bolt and op rod should move fully to the rear from their own weight. Return the rifle to a horizontal position with the bolt and op rod fully to the rear, then lower the muzzle to a 45 degree position. The bolt and op rod should fully close from their own weight. If the rifle fails the tilt test the cause of the op rod binding must be pinpointed and corrected. Often the source of op rod binding is interference with the op rod by the lower band, stock ferrule or front handguard liner. Even if the rifle passes the "tilt test" you should also verify that the stock is not interfering with the op rod by installing the barreled action, less the parts that you removed for the tilt test, in the stock and then installing the trigger group. After that cycle the op rod by hand and watch for interference from the stock or stock ferrule. Any interference along the tube portion of the rod will show up as a worn/shiney area on the tube.

You mention that the rifle shoots well with a particular load. That would indicate that stock bedding is probably OK. Rifles do show a preference for different bullets and different propellants, and even varying weights of the same propellant. Overall I've found IMR4064 to shoot a bit better than IMR4895 in many Garands, but there are exceptions. All of IMR4064, IMR4895, and H4895 will generate acceptable accuracy in a Garand, assuming that the barrel is sound and that the rifle is in proper mechanical condition with proper lubrication.
 
wow purple your the guy i need ......im coming to penticton in october ...whats your address ? ill show up with my garand and say take my money !!!!!! as long as you give the garnad back fixed ...you keep the money ....lol

hey good advice there ...ive done the tilt test but think i cheezed out and only removed the spring and whatver else ....i should do that more thouroughly ....it did it but i had to shake it a bit to get it to slide ....thanks will do

ill also look for that drill bit ...and check the port

and yup i put a proper spring in and not the extra power one you said

my first handloads(think im on my 5th now or so ) indicated its preferance for 168s ( 150 s are more affordable ...hoping but what cha do---- like my m1a ) and imr 4895.but it has shot groups at 100 that are roughly 1.2 " /irons so thats what i want, again 45.5

my first batch was resized so much i couldnt pull bulloets apart that were near showing pressurre signs so i got them for fouling in a bolt gun ....next batch i sized too little ....like neck sized with my full die ...... hmm what else.... i think i got it down now though .... ill go see how much tension is in them by seeing if i can pull it apart like normal

oh i checked run out on my rounds and there bad .... like .008 or .01 ...instead of .001-.002 like my match bullets . na that wouldnt matter except on paper and ill take 1.2 " groups for this with irons . how do you fix that though anyway ?buy better dies ???

the gas lock ...bought another so i have two of those and cylinders ....whichever combo i use its not super tight/snug its backed off a little to make it fit over the barrell or lock channel thing ....wondering if that could be the issue and gas is escaping there? backed off like an 1/8th of a turn. what ya think of that ?

thanks again
 
Last edited:
I'm not in business, but my advice is free for what it's worth. Remember though, this is the internet.

The gas cylinder lock locates the gas cylinder longitudinally on the barrel and is critical for proper gas supply and functionality. When the gas cyl lock is installed and the bottom aperture for the gas cyl screw is at the 6 o`clock position, the gas port in the bottom of the barrel should be fully visible inside the square `window`at the top inside of the gas cyl. This will ensure that there is sufficient gas in the `chamber` that is established between the front of the gas piston and the rear face of the gas cyl lock to cycle the action. If the gas port is partially covered by the `window` chances are that the amount of gas that is available will not be sufficient to cycle the action. This can be checked with a flashlight when the rifle is inverted.

There are a lot of variations in where different gas cyl locks will tighten up against the shoulder of the barrel, so it is a good idea to keep a few on hand for trial fitting. The `timing`of the gas cyl lock should be checked with the gas cyl removed. The ideal fit is when the lock tightens up against the barrel shoulder in the 6 to 8 o`clock position before it is backed off to install the gas cyl screw. Ideally when the gas cyl is installed and the gas cyl screw is tightened, the gas port should be fully visible in the `window`of the gas cyl and there should be some detectable fore and aft movement of the front handgd between the lower band and the rear face of the gas cyl. The overriding thing with a gas cyl lock is to find one that locates the gas cyl in the correct position relative to the gas port, even if this means using a lock that times up more than the ideal 6-8 o`clock position against the barrel shoulder.

As I mentioned in my first post, there should be no rotational movement of the gas cyl when it is installed as this results in an inconsistent sight picture and unwanted vibrations which affect accuracy. If the gas cyl is sloppy on the barrel splines, the edges of the splines can be lightly peened to correct this. A drive on fit of the gas cyl is just fine. A tight gas cyl should be installed and removed by placing a hardwood block on the front and rear of the bayo lug and then tapping on the block, not against the gas cyl itself. Small point, but the stacking swivel should be swung to the rear position and the stacking swivel screw should be tightened down, otherwise the stacking swivel will smack the bottom of the gas cyl when the rifle is fired which will introduce more unwanted vibrations.

The gas cyl screw should be kept tight at all times and checked periodically for tightness when shooting. As mentioned, if the valve of the gas cyl screw is fouled and partially open, or if the rear face of the screw is cracked, gas will be lost and functionality will be affected.

The handloads that I described will operate the rifle and provide good accuracy. Any currently available sizing and seating dies will produce accurate ammo and I have used all of RCBS, Lee and Redding dies to reload for Garands. The key to accurate loads is consistency in case preparation, charging and bullet seating. I segregate my brass by make, firing cycle and weight, deburr flash holes and trim to the same OAL. I also weigh individual charges. Some additional precautions when reloading for a Garand or M14 type include;
1. Keep cases trimmed below max OAL
2. Always full length resize
3. Seat primers slightly below flush with the casehead
4. Use bullets in the 150-168gr range. I`ve found that the most accurate and cheapest non-match grade bullet to use in a Garand or M14 is the Hornady 150gr FMJ.
5. Only use IMR4895, IMR4064 or H4895. These propellants will generate the correct gas port pressure for the rifle and will deliver optimum accuracy as well.

BTW, a lot of Albertans like to come to Penticton to float the Okanagan River channel, drink beer, play with the ducks and geese and do other fun things in there. During the peak of the summer it gets pretty full. I didn`t spy a single Albertan in there today. Traffic is noticeably lighter (and slower) too.
 
Hey purple and others interested. Think I found the problem. There's a little more resistance with the handgaurd on doing the tilt test but it's still fine - op rod is favoring one side by where the handgaurd is / muzzle end . Kinda minor though. Also the gas port seems clear with that size you reccomended. No I think the problem is when I put the trigger group in and lock it down. Then it won't tilt and has I suppose significant resistance working the bolt/ action. Hmmm. Now how do I fix that ? Here I come google.
 
Thought it was a wood stock issue but don't think so now. Put the TG on the rifle minus stock and the bolt comes into rough contact with the .... Don't know what it s called but the main part of the trigger that slams or releases upwards when you pull the trigger. And of course is reset with it being semi auto. There's a groove in the top of it like it should I guess minus my grease. Guess emery cloth it down I would think. Suggestions ? Thanks guys. Whew. Getting close I think.the hammer I think it's called. Lol. Bad contact between bolt and hammer maybe.
 
Last edited:
Ok. Further inspection. Don't know what it's supposed to be like. But with the TG on the rifle minus stock. I can pull down in the hammer maybe 1/8" of an inch and then the bolt clears great. And it will tilt test. So now I'm wondering if something is wrong wth the trigger group. The trigger on this rifle is very light for a military gun. It's very nice. But would rather it work and shoot than have a match trigger on it. Am gonna go look at my m1a and see what it says to me.

So who knows military triggers we'll around red deer. ?? Thanks.

Ok checked out the newer m1a. Same sort of thing. Hammer can be depressed about an 1/8". So that theory is out. Looking at it again. I think it's a contact issue between bolt and top ( grooved) of the hammer.
 
Last edited:
There is nothing wrong with your trigger, the bolt will always rub on the hammer that's why that grove is machined into it. you can try to grease your spring inside the oprod the smart people say sometimes it helps, I would check the piston size with a calliper if its smaller then 0.5250 then it should be replaced by US Army standards but it still should work. if all else fails and you don't want to spend more money then drill your gasport bigger, do it one size up at the time and testfire. This is a temporary fix for your worn out gas cylinder or oprod.
 
When you install the rifle, less the parts which you removed for the tilt test, in the stock and then install the trigger group, the idea is to cycle the action by hand to check for op rod interference with the op rod channel in the stock as well as with the stock ferrule. You weren't able to check for interference with these parts when the rifle was out of the stock. The bolt needs to contact the face of the hammer and then slide over the top of the cocked hammer so that the bolt is cocked in recoil and ready to fire the next shot. The hammer always needs to be cocked before installing the trigger housing in the rifle.

I think that the lube/grease points for the Garand are described in a sticky on this forum. I do put a bit of grease on the face of the hammer as well as in the groove on top of the hammer. Min/max trigger pull on the Garand is 5.5 lbs and 7.5 lbs.

Some minor dragging of the op rod in some areas incl the inside upper surface of the front handguard liner and the stock ferrule is quite normal, but you can't have a hard contact that binds the free movement of the op rod when you do the tilt test.

If you have the gas cylinder installed in the correct position it might be time to assemble some proper handloads and give the rifle a range check for functionality. BTW, the lower band must be tight on the barrel with no movement as a loose lower band can cause the op rod to bind and can also cause poor accuracy. P.S. Did you verify that the gas port in the barrel is cleaned out? Do not enlarge it beyond passing a No 47 drill shank thru it.
 
Last edited:
think you might have been right purple ................. found a big clue ......... my gas cylinder lock was super fouled and seized up ........i have over looked that whole piece of the puzzle for a long time now ........i was ignorant and believed it was just a plug ............and initially because it was seized wouldnt move ............i thought incorrectly that yup just a plug ......because it fits so tightly with the bottom or threaded portion didnt really seem like there was a seam /plunger etc ....... but i kept looking at it and the round thing inside the screwdriver section intrigued me ...... kept thinking why is that there ....lubed it up some more then pushed it sideways on the faint lip ...."seen" it slightly move .....was like ..... "ill be a sonofa "..... then pushed again with an allen key and voila it freed up ....blew it out with air and lube 3x .....alot of debris came out ........alot ...... im praying to the garand gods this was the whole problem the whole time ... 24 pieces of brass are in the tumbler now resized ............ will have to go test it out monday .........

BTW ....... why is that plunger/gas cylinder lock even there???? or part of the gas system ???? it just baffles me .....i know its function as a plug/hold down the front handgaurd etc etc but i mean what does it even do ? or how ???????? thanks again guys
 
The gas plug contains a spring loaded valve which is opened when a grenade launcher is installed. This permits the grenade launcher to function when using the appropriate ctg for it. As you found out, the internals need to be cleaned to make sure that the valve is fully closed when using normal ammo. The gas plug blocks the escape of gas from the gas cylinder and secures the gas cylinder lock which in turn locates the gas cylinder in the correct position on the barrel splineways. Also check the inside face of the gas cyl lock for cracks which might cause gas to escape and cause short stroking and accuracy variations from shot to shot.
 
AHHHH.........ok ....now it makes sense ........hmmmm ..great now i need to get a grende launcher and grenades and work on a handload with that ............. MOCD/MOGP (minute of coyote den and gopher patch) grenade accuracy ....... cool ....... well someone has offered to take a look at it .....hes coming monday .........so yeah hopefully he thinks its fine ....... then ill hit the range maybe on monday (weather dependant) and hopefuly it functions flawlessly ........or he/i say nope ........ will let ya know what happens
 
I think the OP should revisit the stock bedding issue. I mean where the trigger group locks into it's own position in the lower part of the wooden rifle stock. If there is excessive play here, from a severly worn stock or an improper bedding job was done, it reeks havoc with rifle operation.

Maybe or maybe not.

"Rifle shoots okay with a particular load" is a little vague IMO. Are you talking about how it performs on paper, or the semi-auto function of the rifle? Or both??
 
Last edited:
Faulty gas system, maybe.
Binding op rod, more likely.
I would field strip firearm, remove lower band pin then do the tilt test.If it binds or not centered completely in lower band use a punch/hammer to move band one way or the other until it works. Sometimes lower band has to be fitted to barrel if tight and a modified pin used with a drop of loctite to hold it in place. (sand pin slightly undersize and let it drop through hole and let loctite set to hold in place). I use American Eagle 150 grain FMJ as my test round. It is as close to M2 ball as one might find. Also, grease between op rod and barrel when re-assembling rifle.
 
Brutus said:
I think the OP should revisit the stock bedding issue. I mean where the trigger group locks into it's own position in the lower part of the wooden rifle stock. If there is excessive play here, from a severly worn stock or an improper bedding job was done, it reeks havoc with rifle operation.

Maybe or maybe not.

"Rifle shoots okay with a particular load" is a little vague IMO. Are you talking about how it performs on paper, or the semi-auto function of the rifle? Or both??
Click to expand...

no its a new stock from boyds ...... so that has its own possible problems ... i should have done more testing with its original......... 45.5 gr groups fantastic/doesnt cycle ........... 46 gr cycles better but opens up horribly .....something like that ..... didnt keep track of all the differentt reloading thigs i did ........ tension ,depth, mag/non primers, etc etc ....... just know it likes 45.5 ...or at least it did
 
FALover said:
Faulty gas system, maybe.
Binding op rod, more likely.
I would field strip firearm, remove lower band pin then do the tilt test.If it binds or not centered completely in lower band use a punch/hammer to move band one way or the other until it works. Sometimes lower band has to be fitted to barrel if tight and a modified pin used with a drop of loctite to hold it in place. (sand pin slightly undersize and let it drop through hole and let loctite set to hold in place). I use American Eagle 150 grain FMJ as my test round. It is as close to M2 ball as one might find. Also, grease between op rod and barrel when re-assembling rifle.
Click to expand...

the op rod is a little skewed to one side ....but very minimal ,does do the tilt test / a wee amount of resistance , dont think it will effect it .........ill look into what you just reccomended though with the barraell band ......... mine wont cycle AE 150 garand factory ammo .........and doesnt like 150s either ...but fine for function testing , i have greased the pi$$ out of it twice ........i think its the grenade launcher plunger ...... would explain why it has cycled partially ......... the other wierd thinig with this rifle is i would remove it from stock to inspect /trouble shoot after having it zeroed for 80-100 yards ,put it back togethere and twice now the poi was significantly lower than the previous zero ...really wierd ..... so im guessing the barrell harmonics were maybe going out with that gas lock ...... something to do with the thing touching bareel l splines etc etc ....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom