Ive got a bit of work to do on mine. Its definetely my most used and beat up rifle but it is still far and above my favourite. I live for the *ping*! PO said it is all WW2 parts and was a Danish leasy, has a big serial number crudely engraved on the bolt. Get one while you can, they are truly amazing rifles. So well balanced, I can hold it steadier than any other firearm I have ever shouldered, and recoil is like an SKS. From what I understand, they were all made to USGI spec, right? So wear and tear is the big issue with finding a good shooter?
M1 Garand Model Differences. What Are They?
- Thread starter .45_Funk
- Start date
Wow, you ask one simple question and you get so much more information than you expect. I'm loving this site, and I'm really starting to feel the community. Thanks a lot for everything. Okay, so I might--emphasis on the 'might'--have my eyes on a possible Garand. Now I heard somewhere that reloading is about the only way to go. Could someone please point me to somewhere I may read up on all I need to know? And, again, thanks.
For basic reloading info, look around in the Reloading forum, there are numerous beginner reloading threads to browse through.
For Garand specific info, search on "garand" in the Reloading forum, a bunch of threads will come up. Basically, the best way to duplicate the M2 ball ammo that the military spec'd is with either IMR4895 or IMR4064 powder and a 150gr FMJ bullet. Match loads use 168gr boat tail bullets for improved long range performance.
In reality, reloading is the only way to go for pretty much any centerfire rifle calibre. You can tune your loads to your specific rifle, produce higher quality ammo and save money all at the same time. Commercial ammo is around $1/round and my handloads run around $0.60/round for 30-06.
Mark
Gots two
I have a new manufactured Springfield Match rifle and a Service Grade CMP rifle Springfield '43 receiver with a '56 barrel. Both are great guns. The Springfield is of course more accurate but the CMP gun I ordered and had delivered to my door has a very shiny and vitually pristine barrel. Probably was refurbed then put in storage. I asked them to pay particular attention to barrel condition when selecting mine. Although not for issue to Canadians from the CMP, they all do come with an inspection sheet and certification papers listing grade, muzzle wear, throat erosion and stock condition.
More info: http://www.odcmp.com/
I have a new manufactured Springfield Match rifle and a Service Grade CMP rifle Springfield '43 receiver with a '56 barrel. Both are great guns. The Springfield is of course more accurate but the CMP gun I ordered and had delivered to my door has a very shiny and vitually pristine barrel. Probably was refurbed then put in storage. I asked them to pay particular attention to barrel condition when selecting mine. Although not for issue to Canadians from the CMP, they all do come with an inspection sheet and certification papers listing grade, muzzle wear, throat erosion and stock condition.
More info: http://www.odcmp.com/
I s'pose I'm to expect this price? http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502026
Does SA stand for Springfield Armory? Somebody here said they're not the greatest quality. Should I be worrying about this gun having SA parts?
Does SA stand for Springfield Armory? Somebody here said they're not the greatest quality. Should I be worrying about this gun having SA parts?
SA = Springfield Armory. There is now a Springfield Armory which is a private company, nothing to do with the now closed US Springfield Armory.
If anyone told you that rifles and parts from the original Springfield Armory are not of the greatest quality, he is just plain stupid.
That rifle is the EE looks to be a typical M-1 that got rebuilt over the years, maybe tidied up after it was sold off as surplus. I'm not going to comment on the price, other than to say that it is more than I would pay.
Chris Dingell
Member
- Location
- West of Windsor, Ont.
Evaluating a shooter Garand
First, check to see that it's unloaded. Pull back the bolt and leave it locked back.
When looking at Garands for shooting, not collecting, take a dummy .30-'06 cartridge with you, an M1 en-bloc clip and a cleaning rod with patch. Gently insert the bullet of the cartridge in the muzzle. A barrel with a worn muzzle will admit the bullet all the way down to the cartridge mouth. A new barrel will show about 3/8" of bullet. Put your thumb over the bolt face, get some light on your thumb and look down the bore at your thumb examining the rifling for corrosion or other problems. If you think there's just dust ior grease in the bore, use the rod, but don't let it touch the rifling. Some people claim to have Garands with bad muzzles or bores that still shoot well, but I have not seen one.
This next part be careful or you may discover what an "M1 Thumb" feels like. Test whether clips eject. Grasp the rifle stock on the under side ahead of the action. Insert the clip in the open Reciver, back end just ahead of the bolt face. Place the blade of your right hand against the handle of the Operating Rod and hold the Op Rod firmly back against its stops. Place your thumb on the Follower and the clip and gently push them down until the Bolt can be eased forward over both. Ease the Operating Rod handle and Bolt forward until they are on top of the Follower and clip, then remove your thumb from on top of the follower and clip. Once your thumb is out of the way, let the Op Rod handle slip off the blade of your hand and the bolt will slam. Tap the rear of the Op Rod handle to make sure the bolt is closed. Pulll the Op Rod handle smartly to the rear, and the clip should be ejected with a loud "Ping!"
Many stocks have been abused and rasped down, and the receivers are loose in the stock. Put your right hand around the wrist of the stock, and your left thumb against the side of the rear of the receiver and push hard: if you see the receiver move the receiver is very loose in the stock side-to-side and will shoot badly. If the rear of the receiver overhangs into space at the rear because so much wood has been rasped away, it's not going to shoot well. Sit down, put the rifle on your lap, flip the rifle over, grasp the Trigger Guard at the rear, pull it rearward and then upwards: If it merely unlatches and sits there against the Trigger Housing the wood is compressed and/or the trigger guard lugs are worn, resulting in a lack of clamping force when the Trigger Guard is closed, and the rifle will not shoot for sour owls. A new stock, with a new Trigger Guard lugs will give 1/2 to 3/8" of gap between the tip of the Trigger Guard and the Trigger Housing, and to close it you'll have to use a good deal of force to close the Trigger Guard. After doing this, pull the rear of the Trigger Guard rearwards and down to reclamp.
Pull the operating rod handle rearwards and place your hand on the gas cylinder. If it rattles even a little, it will not shoot well until the splines are peened a bit so it is tight.
When picking up a Garand, do NOT pick it up by the front handguard. Most Match conditioned Garands have the front handguard glued and sometimes screwed to the lower band, so they should not move. The attachment by screwing/gluing of handguards in Match conditioned Garands has the reputation of being somewhat fragile. You break it, you may have bought it. All other Garands, there ought to be a little play fore-and-aft in the front handguard, and those that are tight have the reputation of splitting. An old US NRA publication encouraged those offended by the rattle to cut a piece out of an old felt hat, oil or grease it, and insert it between the lower band and the front hand guard.
Before you buy it, ask if you can shoot it. Do not use modern Commercial ammo, as the powders used now are much slower and will result in gas port pressures much higher than the system was designed to operate with: Bent Op Rods and poor functioning will result. Try and find some US surplus made after about 1955 (so you can be sure it is not corrosive). If not, PMC used to make some new Commercial FMJ intended for Garands. There was some Korean surplus around a while back that was appropriate, that with the KA headstamp was corrosive, that with a PS headstamp was not. The proper powders to use are in the 3031-4895-4064 speed ranges. If handloading, full length size, have your primers a bit below flush, and use a harder primer.
Bad things that can happen when shot include poor grouping, the Operating Rod dismounting itself due to a worn tab, pierced primers, lots of different failures to function, doubling, and other problems. Doubling may just result from a failure to pull the trigger straight to the rear, or it may be worn parts such as the Hammer and/or Sear.
The rifle may well not function if not greased. Any place the working surfaces have polished through the Parkerizing needs grease, and that includes the side of the barrel where the Op Rod bears against it. Moly DiSulfide works fine. Don't put on much, as it tends to fling it all over the right lens of your glasses.
First, check to see that it's unloaded. Pull back the bolt and leave it locked back.
When looking at Garands for shooting, not collecting, take a dummy .30-'06 cartridge with you, an M1 en-bloc clip and a cleaning rod with patch. Gently insert the bullet of the cartridge in the muzzle. A barrel with a worn muzzle will admit the bullet all the way down to the cartridge mouth. A new barrel will show about 3/8" of bullet. Put your thumb over the bolt face, get some light on your thumb and look down the bore at your thumb examining the rifling for corrosion or other problems. If you think there's just dust ior grease in the bore, use the rod, but don't let it touch the rifling. Some people claim to have Garands with bad muzzles or bores that still shoot well, but I have not seen one.
This next part be careful or you may discover what an "M1 Thumb" feels like. Test whether clips eject. Grasp the rifle stock on the under side ahead of the action. Insert the clip in the open Reciver, back end just ahead of the bolt face. Place the blade of your right hand against the handle of the Operating Rod and hold the Op Rod firmly back against its stops. Place your thumb on the Follower and the clip and gently push them down until the Bolt can be eased forward over both. Ease the Operating Rod handle and Bolt forward until they are on top of the Follower and clip, then remove your thumb from on top of the follower and clip. Once your thumb is out of the way, let the Op Rod handle slip off the blade of your hand and the bolt will slam. Tap the rear of the Op Rod handle to make sure the bolt is closed. Pulll the Op Rod handle smartly to the rear, and the clip should be ejected with a loud "Ping!"
Many stocks have been abused and rasped down, and the receivers are loose in the stock. Put your right hand around the wrist of the stock, and your left thumb against the side of the rear of the receiver and push hard: if you see the receiver move the receiver is very loose in the stock side-to-side and will shoot badly. If the rear of the receiver overhangs into space at the rear because so much wood has been rasped away, it's not going to shoot well. Sit down, put the rifle on your lap, flip the rifle over, grasp the Trigger Guard at the rear, pull it rearward and then upwards: If it merely unlatches and sits there against the Trigger Housing the wood is compressed and/or the trigger guard lugs are worn, resulting in a lack of clamping force when the Trigger Guard is closed, and the rifle will not shoot for sour owls. A new stock, with a new Trigger Guard lugs will give 1/2 to 3/8" of gap between the tip of the Trigger Guard and the Trigger Housing, and to close it you'll have to use a good deal of force to close the Trigger Guard. After doing this, pull the rear of the Trigger Guard rearwards and down to reclamp.
Pull the operating rod handle rearwards and place your hand on the gas cylinder. If it rattles even a little, it will not shoot well until the splines are peened a bit so it is tight.
When picking up a Garand, do NOT pick it up by the front handguard. Most Match conditioned Garands have the front handguard glued and sometimes screwed to the lower band, so they should not move. The attachment by screwing/gluing of handguards in Match conditioned Garands has the reputation of being somewhat fragile. You break it, you may have bought it. All other Garands, there ought to be a little play fore-and-aft in the front handguard, and those that are tight have the reputation of splitting. An old US NRA publication encouraged those offended by the rattle to cut a piece out of an old felt hat, oil or grease it, and insert it between the lower band and the front hand guard.
Before you buy it, ask if you can shoot it. Do not use modern Commercial ammo, as the powders used now are much slower and will result in gas port pressures much higher than the system was designed to operate with: Bent Op Rods and poor functioning will result. Try and find some US surplus made after about 1955 (so you can be sure it is not corrosive). If not, PMC used to make some new Commercial FMJ intended for Garands. There was some Korean surplus around a while back that was appropriate, that with the KA headstamp was corrosive, that with a PS headstamp was not. The proper powders to use are in the 3031-4895-4064 speed ranges. If handloading, full length size, have your primers a bit below flush, and use a harder primer.
Bad things that can happen when shot include poor grouping, the Operating Rod dismounting itself due to a worn tab, pierced primers, lots of different failures to function, doubling, and other problems. Doubling may just result from a failure to pull the trigger straight to the rear, or it may be worn parts such as the Hammer and/or Sear.
The rifle may well not function if not greased. Any place the working surfaces have polished through the Parkerizing needs grease, and that includes the side of the barrel where the Op Rod bears against it. Moly DiSulfide works fine. Don't put on much, as it tends to fling it all over the right lens of your glasses.
A stock that is loose enought to allow fore/aft movement can most often be fixed by gluing wooden shims on the vertical surfaces where the rear legs of the receiver bear.
Lack of trigger guard tension can often be remedied by swapping a new guard with unworn, full round lugs. Another fix here is to glue wooden strips on the bottom surfaces of the stock aperture where the trigger housing bears. A quick fix on this one is to cut pieces of a magnetic pad to fit the two bearing surfaces and then put them against the trigger housing before assembly. And don't be too quick to discard a trigger guard with worn/flattened locking lugs. Sometimes they are just fine with a new replacement stock where the wood has not been compressed by vertical tension.
Lack of trigger guard tension can often be remedied by swapping a new guard with unworn, full round lugs. Another fix here is to glue wooden strips on the bottom surfaces of the stock aperture where the trigger housing bears. A quick fix on this one is to cut pieces of a magnetic pad to fit the two bearing surfaces and then put them against the trigger housing before assembly. And don't be too quick to discard a trigger guard with worn/flattened locking lugs. Sometimes they are just fine with a new replacement stock where the wood has not been compressed by vertical tension.
Nobody has mentioned SIGHTS and they are very important.
There were THREE basic, radically different, rear sights made for the M-1 rifle. The first model will generally be found only on the oldest rifles, those built in the late 1930s. This sight would jump its ranges when the rifle was fired. Right now, you would REALLY have trouble finding one; they were all supposed to be changed for the second model, back about the time that World War Two got going.
The SECOND model rear sight is sometimes found on rifles today. This is the model with the straight LOCK BAR across the knob. You had to slack off on the lock bar screw, change your sight setting and then tighten up the lock bar again. This kept the thing from jumping ranges (changing its elevation setting) while the rifle was being fired. These are NOT common, but you will turn one up on occasion. If you are a fanatic about 'period', this is the correct sight for War Two. MOST of these were changed-out for the THIRD model rear sight as fast as they could be manufactured.
The THIRD model sight looks very much like the others, but has no lock bar. Internally, however, parts were rearranged and it does not jump out by itself. This sight started into service shortly after WW2 and was the final production versionb. My own rifle is a Springfield, s/n 4337### (August, 1953) and it has the third type rear sight, as did a million others from the factory.... and a whole big heap that were converted.
Gas-trap rifles. Very rare, very valuable, meaning that there are forgeries out there, same as anything else which is rare, desirable and very darned expensive.
Grease: Garands NEED grease on the lugs, in the lug recesses, on the tail of the bolt and the nose of the hammer (they slide against each other), IN the receiver trackway, ON the operating slide, IN the locking/unlocking cam recess in the operating rod and just inside the TOP of the receiver where the bolt rotates. Failure to have grease in these locations can REALLY speed up a rifle's aging process and give you a LOT of problems. There is a proper US Military "Grease, Rifle" in tiny little screw-top tubs which you can find on rare occasion. If you can't find some of these, use Lubriplate 105 (get it from a GM dealer). This product supplies adequate lubrication, it is difficult to wash off and it is good down to a LONG way below zero, remaining slippery when anything else would be like concrete. We used it wirelining in the oil patch and that is the hardest duty you can throw at ANYTHING, short of a war.
And a hint for shooting the critter. The rear sight is adjustable in 1-MOA increments. The front sight is 4 MOA wide. By putting the rear sight 2 clicks out, you can aim with the CORNER of the front sight. Makes for itty-bitty groups if you do it right.
Hatcher's book is a NECESSITY, better than any manual. Also necessary is "Hatcher's Notebook" (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, USA) which is the best dollar-for-dollar education you can get on the subject of firearms in general, automatic systems development and strange things in particular. I first saw a copy almost 50 yerars ago, still learn something new every time I pick it up. It really IS that good!
Most important point of all: do have fun!
There were THREE basic, radically different, rear sights made for the M-1 rifle. The first model will generally be found only on the oldest rifles, those built in the late 1930s. This sight would jump its ranges when the rifle was fired. Right now, you would REALLY have trouble finding one; they were all supposed to be changed for the second model, back about the time that World War Two got going.
The SECOND model rear sight is sometimes found on rifles today. This is the model with the straight LOCK BAR across the knob. You had to slack off on the lock bar screw, change your sight setting and then tighten up the lock bar again. This kept the thing from jumping ranges (changing its elevation setting) while the rifle was being fired. These are NOT common, but you will turn one up on occasion. If you are a fanatic about 'period', this is the correct sight for War Two. MOST of these were changed-out for the THIRD model rear sight as fast as they could be manufactured.
The THIRD model sight looks very much like the others, but has no lock bar. Internally, however, parts were rearranged and it does not jump out by itself. This sight started into service shortly after WW2 and was the final production versionb. My own rifle is a Springfield, s/n 4337### (August, 1953) and it has the third type rear sight, as did a million others from the factory.... and a whole big heap that were converted.
Gas-trap rifles. Very rare, very valuable, meaning that there are forgeries out there, same as anything else which is rare, desirable and very darned expensive.
Grease: Garands NEED grease on the lugs, in the lug recesses, on the tail of the bolt and the nose of the hammer (they slide against each other), IN the receiver trackway, ON the operating slide, IN the locking/unlocking cam recess in the operating rod and just inside the TOP of the receiver where the bolt rotates. Failure to have grease in these locations can REALLY speed up a rifle's aging process and give you a LOT of problems. There is a proper US Military "Grease, Rifle" in tiny little screw-top tubs which you can find on rare occasion. If you can't find some of these, use Lubriplate 105 (get it from a GM dealer). This product supplies adequate lubrication, it is difficult to wash off and it is good down to a LONG way below zero, remaining slippery when anything else would be like concrete. We used it wirelining in the oil patch and that is the hardest duty you can throw at ANYTHING, short of a war.
And a hint for shooting the critter. The rear sight is adjustable in 1-MOA increments. The front sight is 4 MOA wide. By putting the rear sight 2 clicks out, you can aim with the CORNER of the front sight. Makes for itty-bitty groups if you do it right.
Hatcher's book is a NECESSITY, better than any manual. Also necessary is "Hatcher's Notebook" (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, USA) which is the best dollar-for-dollar education you can get on the subject of firearms in general, automatic systems development and strange things in particular. I first saw a copy almost 50 yerars ago, still learn something new every time I pick it up. It really IS that good!
Most important point of all: do have fun!
You will sometimes encounter a rifle where the serrations on the receiver which engage the elevation knob(left side) are worn to the point where they won't positively retain the single "tit" on the inside of the latest style elevation knob. This results in slippage of the elevation knob and aperture. There is a serrated disc available, which can be epoxied to the left side of the receiver to correct this, but another fix is to simply install one of the older lockbar style windage/elevation knob sets. The elevation knob on these units has many engagement points on the inner face which provide more positive retention for the elevation knob.
What does this mean, exactly? And, if most Garands have been stripped and pieces have been changed, does it really matter what brand you have?--keep in mind I don't want a collector's piece.
There are those who swoon over Winchester marked M-1s.
The only feature of significance is the Winchester name.
If it turns your crank.....
For a representative rifle, in sound serviceable condition, the maker's name on the heel of the receiver doesn't matter.
And yes, the overwhelming majority of M-1s have been rebuilt at least once.
There were two makers during WW2, Springfield Armory, which made the majority, and Winchester. In the 1953-1956 period Garands were made by Springfield Armory (again the biggest producer), Harrington& Richardson, and International Harvester. Each maker has it's devotees and you can see some unique quirks among them in shaping the exterior of the receivers to final dimensions. The general consensus is that Springfield and H&R rifles exhibited the best fit and finish followed by IHC and Winchester. That being said, they all met government acceptance criteria and parts are interchangeable among makers.
US collectors are somewhat distainful of the Beretta and Breda Garands which were produced under license in Italy in 1954-55. IMHO these are every bit as good, or better, than the 1950s vintage Springfields and H&Rs.
US collectors are somewhat distainful of the Beretta and Breda Garands which were produced under license in Italy in 1954-55. IMHO these are every bit as good, or better, than the 1950s vintage Springfields and H&Rs.
