M10 Ross markings

[PEI ROB]

Well I picked up a 1910 Ross, sporter that is. The stock was sanded down and all the markings and #'s are totally removed. Any way to determine what year this is or any other info?

N marking

B marking

5 25 marking on barrel

0/4 marking

24 9 F P marking

3 [I think its a 3] E, E is for enlarged chamber for the 303 british ammo correct?

BTW, I got to playiong around with it and this bolt simply cannot be installed wrong, and it is not pinned. The extractor groove is short/not extended around but even with the extractor removed I could not assemble it with the head turned around.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[H Wally]

Well I picked up a 1910 Ross, sporter that is. The stock was sanded down and all the markings and #'s are totally removed. Any way to determine what year this is or any other info?


BTW, I got to playiong around with it and this bolt simply cannot be installed wrong, and it is not pinned. The extractor groove is short/not extended around but even with the extractor removed I could not assemble it with the head turned around.

Cheers,
Rob

Afraid all the really pertinent info was put on the stocks. Just the way she goes What's the barrel length on yours?

Also, I don't remember specifically how, but it is possible to install the bolt assy wrong. I decided to try one day and managed it - It takes some weaseling but it'll slide into position - if you were tired or not paying attention it could get past you, likely the same problem tired and not overly attentive or technically minded soldiers had.

 

[smellie]

Wally is correct enough there, but you might want to try ultraviolet light ("black light": ou can getbulbs for about a buck) and see whatshows up. This has worked for some folks.

By the way, assuming that your rifle has the original bolt, you HAVE a serial number: that "249 F P" is correct for a Ross Mark III serial number; we just don't know the year. Ross bolts normally left the factory without numbers, so this one has been numbered in order to keep it with a particular rifle. If the UV doesn't show anything up and the bolt heaspaces right in your rifle, you might as well take this as the number. I don't think anybody is gonna complain. It's original to a Ross, anyway.

When the chambers were relieved, it was normal to stamp them "LC" for "Large Cone".I have a few stamped like that. "HV" would indicate "High velocity" meaning the Mark VII cartridge: 2440 ft/sec in the SMLE, although you will gain about 100 ft/sec in the Ross: Rosses DID shoot harder, as the old-timers said.

How long s your barrel? They were 30 inches and a tad when they were built. a LOT got the chop to about 25, a lesser number to about 21 or 22. I have choped one with a 25-inch heavy tube and it shoots to beat the band. I keep a 10x scope on it because the rifle can use one, not to mention my eyes.

Rosses are FUN!

Welcome to the Wonderful World of ROSS Rifles!
.

 

[cantom]

The later bolts did have the extractor groove shortened to make the misassembly much less likely. Sounds like it works?

BTW, I got to playing around with it and this bolt simply cannot be installed wrong, and it is not pinned. The extractor groove is short/not extended around but even with the extractor removed I could not assemble it with the head turned around.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[PEI ROB]

The barrel is exactly 30.5" to the closed bolt face. I tried for at least 20 mins to get that bolt in wrong, perhaps if I had a German coming at me I could ham hand it in? I mentioned the extractor groove and thought that might be a clue to the age. Not sure what wood it is, if in fact the two choices are black walnut and yellow birch I would have to say its the yellow birch. My bolt stop is identical to the one on the featured 1916 @ milsurp.com

Crappy pic but you get the idea.

 

[smellie]

Be careful, even if you don't seem to be able to throw it out. I have been messing with these for a long time and I have not yet found an unpinned bolt that I CAN'T throw out.

Rally nice thing about all of this is that the bolt MUST be removed from he rifle in order to get it out of whack. It CAN'T throw itself out while it is in the rifle.

You should scoot on over to milsurps dot com and download yourself a manual and some of the articles on your rifle. It's the same price as dear old CGN: free.

Have fun with the toy!
.

 

[smellie]

Very nice! This one is restorable.

If the bore is decent, you will find that this is a rifle which you MUST handload for. This is because factory ammo just is not good enough for the rifle.

For a light-bullet load, I am having good luck with 40 grains of 4064 with a Hornady 150. Seat the bullet so that the whole cannelure shows.

For a heavy-bullet load, I am using 38 grains of 4895 with a Sierra flatbase 180 Pro-hunter, seated to the OAL of a Mark VII Ball round. This is a MILD load, gets about 2335 ft/sec out of the Ross barrel, about 200 ft/sec below mil-spec. SUPER accuate. I use this as a test load for any .303.

Have fun!

 

[PEI ROB]

The later bolts did have the extractor groove shortened to make the misassembly much less likely. Sounds like it works?

It must help but I removed the extractor and still couldn't get it in wrong.
I wonder if the machining is slightly different somewhere else on the head. I noticed the lugs are cut different in the pics of this forum, below. 3rd pic , page 2 for me, notice the angle of the last lug on the right side VS the same of the other head. Mine is the same as the head on the right.
I liberated the pic

http://rossrifle.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6159811edbd9f8f705876a36a5d47384&topic=7.15

 

[buffdog]

Wrongly Assembled Bolt ***

It must help but I removed the extractor and still couldn't get it in wrong.
I wonder if the machining is slightly different somewhere else on the head. I noticed the lugs are cut different in the pics of this forum, below. 3rd pic , page 2 for me, notice the angle of the last lug on the right side VS the same of the other head. Mine is the same as the head on the right.
I liberated the pic

http://rossrifle.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6159811edbd9f8f705876a36a5d47384&topic=7.15

IMPORTANT * * * WRONGLY ASSEMBLED BOLT * * *

Your "liberated" picture shows a bolt that has been WRONGLY ASSEMBLED on the left side. There is only about 1/4 inch of the bolt head showing between the locking lugs and the main bolt body. Also notice the groove for the extractor, and the position of the gas escape hole.

The Bolt on the RIGHT is CORRECTLY ASSEMBLED. There is about ONE INCH OF SPACE showing. (About the LENGTH of the red arrow.)

Notice that the gas escape hole is pointing up, and there is not so much of the extractor groove showing. The best indication is the length of the bolt head showing, about one inch long, when the bolt is properly assembled.

 

[PEI ROB]

That's what we are discussing buffdog, hence the pic. Copy and paste the link to see the thread on another forum.

BTW, the groove is different and the head oriented in the same plane, but obviously not extended so on incorrectly. The heads are different.

 

[buffdog]

Ross M-10 Bolt heads

There were three bolt heads made for the Ross Military Mark III (M-10) rifle. The early ones had a long extractor cut as pictured on the left hand rifle in the picture. The third type is similar to the right hand rifle, where not very much of the extractor groove shows. The second or intermediate bolt head has an extractor groove that is about even with the right side of the gas escape hole.

You can check on proper bolt closure by shining a small flash light (LED lights work well) into the rear of the receiver ring and watch the bolt actually turn. On a properly assembled bolt, it will rotate to the left, and you can see that the lugs are FULLY moved into the locking position.

The bolt on the right hand rifle is interesting. Whether by actual happening, or a trick of the camera, it almost looks like there are pieces missing from the left locking bolt lug threads. Sort of a groove through the middle of the four left locking lug threads. I wonder if that bolt had been used for a "incorrect bolt assembly test" in an Ross with an early bolt stop, and the threads were sheared off by a smaller bolt stop?

Early Ross rifles had a small bolt stop, that was later changed to one of a larger contact diameter. This was one of the problems with the "Jamming" as the smaller bolt stop deformed the left rear lug when the bolt was operated with a lot of force, many times.

If your serial number of your rifle is 249 FP, then it would put it into late 1915 or early 1916 production.

.
.

 

[PEI ROB]

Thanks for the info! It is a camera image thing going on, the other pics show no damage or out of the ordinary marks.

Just to beat this to death, you guys say this serial number is 249 FP

Cheers,
Rob

 

[buffdog]

Ross serial numbers

If we assume that the people who sanded the stock took the time to put the serial number on the bolt, then the 249 FP is PART of the actual serial number.

The Ross System combined numbers from 1 to 999 with Letters starting with "A", then when approzimately 26000 rifles (999 x 26 Letters A to Z) were used up, they then started over again using TWO letters (from AA, AB, AC, etc to where your rifle FP is and continuing onwards. The "FP" series would be 1915 or possibly early 1916. Therefore the actual serial number of your rifle could be either 249 FP/1915 or 249 FP/1916.

The FE and FK series have 1915 dates on them, so with the Ross Factory at full production, there is only about 5000 rifles difference from the FK to the FP serial numbers. If I had to guess, I would incline toward 1915.
.

 

[WR1894]

If I remember correctly in the Ross book in around 1916 they started to use Birch stocks and the stocks were mark with a B inside to show this. I have not got my book with me at the moment but that may what the B mark in the stock is for
John

 

[bushwhacker]

The rifle is restorable, because the barrel is full length and the mid-band is still a good fit on the stock that has been cut ahead of it. You can join the forend extension under the mid-band. Biggest problem is to source a nosecap. If you succeed at that, you need a piece of wood that is a good match squared up to just larger than the biggest dimension, rout out the barrel channel, which involves offsetting the stock on the router table by taping shims at the breech end, as the barrel is tapered. The rest is all hand work using a plane, rasp and sanding and staining. I have been thinking about the nosecap problem and have wondered if it would not be possible to make one in 2 pieces, split longtitudinally at the step inside, which is what makes it so hard to machine, and then MIG or TIG welding the two pieces together and filing and polishing. Just a thougt,
Bill

 

[cantom]

It may be extendable, but it really isn't restorable to anything approaching original. Look at how the stock has been sanded down and reprofiled in the grip area.

Stoggie is gearing up to make replacement stocks. That rifle would be ideal for that as the stock is trashed, but it has a full length barrel.

Now, as for a nose cap???

The rifle is restorable, because the barrel is full length and the mid-band is still a good fit on the stock that has been cut ahead of it. You can join the forend extension under the mid-band. Biggest problem is to source a nosecap. If you succeed at that, you need a piece of wood that is a good match squared up to just larger than the biggest dimension, rout out the barrel channel, which involves offsetting the stock on the router table by taping shims at the breech end, as the barrel is tapered. The rest is all hand work using a plane, rasp and sanding and staining. I have been thinking about the nosecap problem and have wondered if it would not be possible to make one in 2 pieces, split longtitudinally at the step inside, which is what makes it so hard to machine, and then MIG or TIG welding the two pieces together and filing and polishing. Just a thougt,
Bill

 

[PEI ROB]

Thanks again guys. You never know, might find another some day. Certainly caught some sort of bug.